Sheikh Mohammed: Godolphin Farce

Ruby, I suppose it boils down to the team around him. Also this 'fool' has an endless supply of money to be parted with. Every time you fill your tank you do your bit for the boys in blue!!

amazing they never had a 2000 guineas horse and as you say no real derby candidate again by the looks of things.

Is it Honcho??

According to Godolphin he decides where and horses go and following on from that who he buys etc.

How longer can it continue??....

Jim Bolger making Teofilo??

Godolphin cant even promote there own Sires that Darley paid a kings ransom for.

Where did it go wrong?

1) Failure to appoint 2nd trainer (bin Shafaya or Al Zarooni)
2) Focussing on quantity not quality.
3) Boycott of Coolmore bloodstock/stallions.
4) Existing Darley stallions not good enough

2004 was their last 'good' season, 2005 wasnt bad but they were heavily reliant on 2 or 3 decent horses - Shamardal and Punctilious were by Coolmore stallions incidentally.

If you look at their Group 1 winners between 2006 and 2010 (inclusive), you will see that only 20-25% of their Group 1 winners came from Darley stallions. The rest were either private, yearling or 2yo purchases at the sales.

However recently, in my view, things have improved. Group races have been won with Darley homebreds, Al Zarooni is a very promising young trainer and they finally have some quality stallions to breed too.

The 1000 Guineas was a poor show from both Discouse & Lyric of Light (both by Street Cry), but I don't think many came out of that with much credit bar the winner. As for the Derby, the favourite is miles clear of everything else at this stage but Mandean should re-appear next week in the Dante. He is by Manduro and by all accounts is their main Derby hope.

Lets wait until Discourse, Lyric of Light, Mandean, Swedish Sailor and a few others have their next outings before completely writing off 2012 for Godolphin.

Mandean pulled up nearly as was that horse at York in the 2mile race or whatever it is.

The two trainers have nearly 400 horses in their care for Godolphin. I am not sure how one would go about working out what the cost horse ratio and just how much higher it is than the rest of the population.

I think that the current jockey situation says so much in that the hot young thing from France just had to be 'purchased'. So (admittedly not perfect) Dettori is sidelined for The Oaks. Flawed or no one would be crazy to leave him in the weighing room with his record.

I am afraid that Sheikh Mo cannot leave well alone. His inability to resist tinkering is embarassing. BUT, Crisford, Ferguson, Dettori and co. are well rewarded and that might involve getting results, but nowadays more often means thet are purely P.R. with their principal task being to diffuse criticism.

Wha'evva. it's only money.

How long can this last...no runners in The Derby, Cornation Cup and one runner in the Oaks.

Again I say it...400 odd horses in training. It is laughable.

You may have this argument the wrong way round, maybe it is Coolmore who are doing so well and that it eclipses all others who play at it. Hype machine or not they (Magnier and co) have known theIr stuff since the VO'Brien days.

The recent sire lines of:-
Sadlers Wells, Danehill and now Galileo, Montjeu have just blown everything outta the water.

The big shame for me is that Godolphin have a great broodmare band and if he could get to the top Coolmore stallions then it could get tasty.

Unless you breed to the best you'll be second best IMO - I guess he's trying to catch that wonder horse/stallion to compete with them.....but that plan aint working so far.

I can't see Coolmore making too many mistakes either.....


ps - agree about Zarooni being decent - but also remember S Mohammed sacked H Cecil because he wouldn't train horses like he wanted them to be trained - that was sheer madness.

Godolphin have a great broodmare band but Juddmonte have fantastic sires in Oasis Dream and Dansili.

Don't really use much of them. Jim Bolger made Teofilo last year and starting again with New Approach.

It starts with the trainers for me.

Juddmonte have had a great run over the last 3 years but even they didn't bother trying to compete in the Oaks, Derby or Coronation. Wrotham Heath was their only runner on the 2 day Epsom card. Why give a horse a hard race if you know you can't win? Plenty of nice races later on where Camelot will be absent. I doubt whether Coolmore will field anything significant against Frankel at Royal Ascot unless they need the second prize money.

It strikes me that Darley support their stallions well at the sales, which is what breeders want. As PotM eluded to, there will be plenty of hangers on collecting large sums of money for being yes men. All that said, their operation is massive and to have such moderate success must be simply more than the boss being pig headed.

It is surprising that one yard, Coolmore, seem to be able to dominate the 10 furlong plus races to such an extent. Yes they have the best sires but racing is littered with well bred failures and unfashionably bred classic winners so their rearing and training has to be a big factor. I happen to think that they overdo the unsporting tactics/multiple runner strategy but it is run like a multi national business and has little to do with sport.

I think that the two trainers are handicapped by having to do well in Dubai. It means their main focus is not on preparing horses for Classics.

They really need to have more trainers and make sure thye undertake different tasks. Have a British based trainer for the 3yo's with no side issues. Again revert to a 2yo trainer if anyone will take on that mantle. Then have two to train the other horses.

Eont that's a really good point I would guess. I think that a genius trainer would be required to juggle a global, all age, both hemisphere programme for 200 horses.

There cannot be any doubt in anyones' mind that Godolphin should go back to a cherry picking elite operation. With Johnston and Fabre tuned to produce 2yos for them that is a step in the right direction. I would imagine that bringing so many horses 'in house' was a reaction by the Sheikh to a supposition that all his trainers weren't singing from the Godolphin Hymnn sheet and were producing his horses with selfish motives, not the Royal Blue one. There may be truth in that but it is also a requirement to keep calm when promising horses fall by the wayside as they inevitably do and not just panic everything over to Dubai.

Mind you there breeding/buying youngstock programme has to be flawed too. So far the 2yos that remain in Europe should be producing better types. The massive Bolger purchases were a good idea, but it is a fact that when so many budding champions are owned by non selling competitors it is hard to find a great horse to buy.

Maybe they might have the last laugh though? Perhaps limited access to Sadlers/Danehill will strengthen them long term with a broodmare band that is entirely suitable for a European stallion band that is saturated with the Tipperary Two?

Where to start?

Moyglare, Aga Khan, the Arabs (to a minor extent) all recognise that Ireland is the place to breed foals and its where most or all of Godolphin's breeding resources should be, managed by the world-renowned Irish expertise and not dictated from Dubai.

Their breeding programme has been appalling for the past decade or more and choosing non-Irish UK-based expertise is a big reason they have failed. Look at the big knobs that have come and gone (Stroud, De Burgh etc) and you can see that human blood seems more important than equine-related talent.

As proof-positive of how misguided they are is the fact that their NUMERO UNO adviser is now dividing his time training national hunt cast-offs and Frankie Dettori (the most charismatic jockey we have EVER seen) is now being treated abominably by the Sheikh. I ask you!!

Every aspect of Godolphin is a money effluent tank (breeding, training and buying) and I will advance the following cursory glance through the leading racehorse earners from just 2011 and 2012 to prove my case:

Here's the list of Ballydoyle high-achievers:

Power c
So You Think c
Camelot c
Pour Moi c
Fame & Glory c
Treasure Beach c
Seville c
Roderic O'Connor c
St Nicholas Abbey c

Homecoming Queen f
Misty For Me f
Maybe f

Vincent O'Brien always maintained you had to be a buyer (as well as a breeder) to keep on top of the game. Every colt mentioned above was bought either at publicly auction or privately by John Magnier and his lieutenants. They probably invested far, far less than Godolphin but returned an exponential return on their dough.

The three fillies are home-breds.

QED

P.S. The industry in the British Isles (including Ireland) would be on its knees without the largesse of the Gulf but HOW they spend their money is what this debate is all about. Anyone else would have thrown their hat at the wanton waste many years ago as it now serves no promotional purpose-the opposite in fact judging on what most posters say.

Too many overpaid underachievers in middle to high management making bad decisions.

Little point in contributing to this..as per usual it becomes a 'the irish / Coolmore' are great thread.  To say the issue is where the foals are bred is frankly bizarre (let alone ignoring the fact that hundreds if not thousands of arab owned foals are bred in ireland).

In fairness YerMa I think most of the comments are pretty reasonable. I think the point about how much Darley spend and their importance to racing is the key to the issue. It would be better for all beeders if they were more successful. They certainly support their stallions at the sales more than anyone else as far as I can see. In my experience they are also very decent to deal with. It would be great for British breeders if they had better stallions, they do have the means to stand ones that could compete with Ireland.

Coolmore,Juddmonte,H.H Aga Khan all have a well documented overall plan and stick to it,their success speaks for itself.What's Darleys Is it a case of trying to be everything to everyone?Is that possible?

Its not even Coolmore are great.

Personally Juddmonte is the model for me. Love to breed mare to fashionable sires and watch the families grow and stand the sires that are top class.

Darley have shocking trainers. Imagine the insanity of taking Horses of fAndre Fabre and giving them to Suroor. Its bonfide mental white coats to the nut house policy. So many good mares wasted on complete rubbish sires. At least use Juddmonte sires on them. They have spent fortunes at the sales, spent fortunes acquiring stallions, fortunes on mares and they still can not produce one Derby Horse or 1 2000 Guineas Horse.

The British Media are frightened to address it. They ask about Aidan when he won 10 Group 1s in a year that the wheels are falling off. Godolophin havent won Group 1 with a horse with Balls since Ramonti.

Look at Dettori now being treated. look at the money they spent on Dubai Track and its awful.

I personally believe all there top branch should be fired, Crisford is useless as is Ferguson. Might be nice chaps but then again they getting well over 7 figures one would imagine for there advice.

Its a joke operation run by a joker. Who else with Billions could run such a rancid inept operation??

I do acknowledge that there are probably more noteworthy breeders plying their trade in Ireland, but it's a little crazy to give carte blanche to the notion that 'Ireland is the place to breed foals'!

If I walk round Goffs foal sale and then I go to Tatts I know which foals look better produced and which have had fewer problems. There is PLENTY of bad husbandry in Ireland and I daresay there is plenty of bad land in GB too.

In 2008 though there were twice as many mares plying their trade in Ireland than the UK and as I said probably better breeders there too. However of the 10 GB/Ire breds mentioned in Royal Academy's list it's 6 Ire/4 Gb. That's underperformance with you Royal Academy and worryingly so given your Brilliant breeders the best stallions!

Nothing's black and white!

I acknowledge that my opening paragraph above is unnecessarily jingoistic and unfair to many fine British breeders. I tend to get hot under the collar discussing Godolphin because they are so wealthy and yet so utterly misguided and demonstrate an appalling ineptitude in this neck of the woods.

In a topsy-turvy word Ireland does have a reputation for producing the best and John Magnier has built on this reputation through means fair and, no doubt, foul. It is this incisiveness and ruthlessness that shows Godolphin for what it is; a very incompetent operation that may be badly advised or, perhaps, it is just one very misguided individual surrounding himself with yes-men.

I'd like to see what a Paul Shanhan (in the Michael O'Leary mould) would do to sort out this operation in double-quick time. Bloodstock is just like any other business if you are chasing the goal of profit and filthy lucre and if you are a dreamer or sentimentalist you will soon be relived of your notions (and money).

Moyglare, Aga Khan, the Arabs (to a minor extent) all recognise that Ireland is the place to breed foals and its where most or all of Godolphin's breeding resources should be, managed by the world-renowned Irish expertise ?????


i see where you are coming from ra but this really is nonsense, ireland has become a horsebreeding hotpot due to several things it has a lot of agriculture and a lot of good horsemen ,
BUT  most of the large establishments are there for 1 main reason the beneficial rates of taxation which makes it financially the best place to be.

horses need grass and oats it is not too difficult any  reasonable farmer in an area where you dont have drought can produce all that is required to rear horses.

the blue grass of kentucky and the green grass of county kildare dont vary much and both are mostly water.

ireland since sangster,v o brien and magnier got into northern dancer has been the place to be ,but if tax regimes chance wherever the most tax efficient country to be in is where most of the big players will end up.



coolmore has irish racing by the nuts and if they are not carefull will gradually become its nemisis.

That's a very fair point about the tax efficiency of Ireland financial incentives are a big incentive.As far as I am aware there has been no major change in the climate or mineral make-up of France's land,yet more and more mares are relocating there.Could it be the breeders premiums reward successful breeders?

flush: I did admit in hindsight that the comment that you decided to comment on was unfair but its your prerogative to choose to ignore that fact 9 hours after I posted a retraction.

Therefore this thread neatly becomes an anti-Coolmore debate in one bound.

As we know from our on-going financial debacle (and the UK generosity in assisting its neighbour was one of the most noble gestures in the whole sorry episode) we are capable of getting many things wrong. However, in racing and breeding, we have something to help us to recover nationally and internationally.

The "tax incentive" issue is, I believe, something of a red herring. Ireland has withdrawn its favourable tax treatment of stallion income since 2008 and our standard of standing sire has not and will not diminish thanks to Sea The Stars, Camelot and perhaps even Frankel!!

Furthermore, there is very little "profit" made in breeding or racing generally with the commercial nous concentrated in the hands of a relatively small number of very shrewd and sharp opeartors who pay income and corporation tax on profits as any normal business. The biggest players (Aga, Arabs, JM/Tabor/Smith etc etc) and the smaller participants (small farmers, sole owners, syndicates etc) fund the game with discretionary wealth or disposable income as the industry in general is very cash-consuming.

Undoubtedly Ballydoyle are an overwhelming influence here but that hasn't prevented Oxx, Weld, Bolger, Wachman, Lyons, Stack, Prendergast etc providing plenty of competition. This debate is all about Sheikh Mohammed and its his failure to compete that is causing the predominance of Coolmore horses presently. The fortunes of Ballydoyle runners will swing around as usual in years to come but they will remain strong.

I would argue that Coolmore is probably a more efficient stud operation today that 15-20 years ago when they also had champion sires. At that time they believed every stallion should stand on their farms and satellites and this competition, particularly at the lower end of the market, led to the over-production crisis and taught them that competition was probably a good thing. The recession has made everyone leaner and meaner and there is now healthy competition amongst all stud farms and the glut of foals has disappeared. This concentartion on quality and the consequential culling of crap mares can only be positive.

Every country is/was entitled to tax their industry as they see fit and I would point to the ability of a UK racehorse owner to be able to reclaim VAT input costs as a case in point (some things make sense and the notion of taking a 17.5% "hit" on an expensive hobby, that is hugely job-creating, was never clever legislating). Its an incentive that worked for Ireland and did lead to a burgeoning in the strength of the breeding industry with its Northern Dancer concentration to the undoubted disadvantage of the US. North American racing continues, apparently, in terminal decline for two more reasons:
1. a failure to control doping
2. the average american regards "horse-players" as next to ****s (I once regaled a well-to-do Chicagoan dinner party with my interest in horse racing and I was almost asked to leave the room)

So, in my opinion, Ireland, for a country of small population and a rural and agricultural history, rates highly in this specific international industry. It is responsible for trainers and jockeys of renown, its citizens are to be found the world over running the largest stud operations and it has very significant presences in North America, Australia and far eastern markets are also about to open up. This could not happen without dominant characters and leaders and, as I said earlier, a lot of rough and tumble.

France, of course, has its off-course PM monopoly and this poses a threat for Irish and UK industries. Ireland's government has a far more benign and supportive attitude to its indigenous enterprises and long may that continue. The UK, on the other hand, are mired in on-going levy disputes and the government demonstrates its disinterest by selling off the Tote to a bookmaker who's only interest is the slot machines in 500+ shops.


Believe it or not, I am no fan of how Irish racing is presently constituted with civil sermants running horse racing ireland as puppeteers for nine or ten sectional interests but thats another story. In the meantime I am quite proud of what we have achieved reputationally on a world stage.

And don't forget the theme of this thread is the failure of Sheikh Mohammed to compete at the highest level with a bottomless pit of cash.

ra did say i see where your coming from ,the point is the big players are there for a reason.
but the crux of the matter is shiek mo is wealthier than all of them put together he is doing his own thing and tax incentives make no real difference when you can buy and sell every other bugger.
is his outfit succesfull in the way that coolmore is no.
is his breeding operation like coolmore no.
he is probably like the aga who has really went against poular conceived wisdom in the breeding sheds with plenty of good horses being produced.
shiek mo has not had the relative sucess of the aga but it may be just around the corner.
he may be idealistically avoiding coolmore and the northern dancer line as the aga has on many occasions to produce his own lines.
the vanity and egos of the very rich can either help or hinder in their quest for further sucess but breeding is not a science or a black art but somewhere in between.
their might be 10 champions in his paddocks at the moment and in 15 years time we could be saying genius that guy aint he.

and frederico tesio went against the grain in  his breeding programme but produced ribot  nearco and then your northern dancer lineage.
everybody is jumping on the bandwagon and the genepool due to tesios sucess has been diluted to the detriment of the thoroughbred,
who is to say that the aga and sheik mo are going to be the savior of the thoroughbred and not coolmore who are very succesfull but with a very  small gene pool which may in my opinion end up harming the breed further.

take the point flush but there's little evidence of a well thought out plan imo.

they don't use THE proven sires any more and that's to their detriment...cutting your nose etc

Magnier played them for a few years with Sadler's etc and realised they'd pay anything at the time for access. When they cottoned on it was too late to retrieve the current mess.

They then do a u-turn and start buying proven Coolmore-sired champions and its Jim Bolger who seems to be doing their work with successful progeny. Where are the arab-bred runners so far from Teofilo, New Approach etc?

Forgive me but where in the current operation is the Tesio or Aga hiding?

In any event, breeding is just a component part-there's too much evidence they can't train either and have ruined virtually every horse that came to them as a successful 2 or 3yo?

By comparison, Ballydoyle manage to contine to get at least an equal thread of ability from racehorses they have purchased: Montjeu (their best-ever purchase of a horse in training), So You Think and Excelebration etc.

It poses the question what would you have done without hindisght in building the SMohammed empire?
He started off great - select yearling sales and getting good broodmare bands from failing US firms when the market dipped in the late 80's.

From there the main mistake is his competition with Coolmore - if he had used their sires he would be ahead now - he would have been able to incorperated their expertise and his spending power - this is pointed out by Maximus earlier as a reason for failure ... 3) Boycott of Coolmore bloodstock/stallions.

...but I would be interested to know what posters would do if given a billion pounds to spend in 10 or so years..... lets not make it that hard - how about 250 million?

Far more sense in recent postings here.  One point I always make in this debate is to make a distinction between Godolphin (an operation I do think is flawed in lots of ways - not least buying expertise..mine excepted of course) and Darley.  Darley is a global operation which is generally maligned from a UK/Irish centric point of view.  The Aus operation is good and even better for recent acquisitions.  The US stallions are top notch.  The fact is in UK / Ireland the stallions are sold out and we have debates on here that something as average as Poets Voice is worth £12k a pop.   The racing operation struggling over the last 5 years or so is to my mind predominatly down to avoiding certain bloodlines and experimenting with non-European sires on turf.  There is also LESS focus on a narrow production line of 10-12f turf performers like Ballydoyle, in fairness to them they know what they are good at and stick to it.  If you asked them to win July cups and Kentucky Derby winners from now on they would need to reinvent themselves.

Its quite clear what you would do.

You would go back to Pedigree British and Irish Trainers and simply beg them beg them to take your horses back. Run back under the Red and forget this nationalist bullshit with Dubai.

Quick List of Horses that were completely ruined by Godolphin that were Group 1 Winners before:

Casemento
Kingsfort
Cutlass Bay
Cavarlyman
Mandean
Denman(Australia)


That is only in the last 2/3 years. Name all the other horses they purchased etc, remember Simon De Montfort the second coming.

Oh such waste such waste!

I remember a colt named "Fast Company" trained by B.Meehan, finished half a length 2nd to New Approach in the Dewhurst, then bought by Godolphin, never to be seen again. Well his first foals are out in 2012.

Don't disagree with most of what has been said above; but I wish people would get their terminology correct.

Fast Company was not BOUGHT by Godolphin, he was TRANSFERRED from one Maktoum owner to another.

Fast Company was BOUGHT by the Maktoums before the Dewhurst, prior to that race he was owned by Earle Mack.

Screen Star, won a maiden race by 11 lengths, on her only start when trained by M.Johnson, transfered to Godolphin , never to race again. Evasive 6th in Sea The Stars 2000 Guineas when trained by Stoute, bought by Godolphin then only had race 2 more races.
For anti post punters it is the kiss of death if your horse ends up with Godolphin.

Plenty of evidence to support your theory but i think you could point to as many failures that are owned by the other top owner/breeders if you look for them. Look at the hype surrounding Top Offer this spring. Looks very ordinary now despite the yard flying with other horses. Plenty more of the same if you look.

Dubai Prince one of the best Dermot Weld ever trained turned into a horse pulled up in carnival donkey races out in Dubai.

Just Shocking!

Remember Kingsfort and Chabal ? first and 2nd in the National Stakes , then to Godolphin, poor old Chabal ended up being gelded.

I think Bolger caught them a beaut with Chabal

Bolger is just one example of getting one over on them at top dollar prices. In the early days of the Arab money can you imagine what breeders/agents et al were up to with Sheikh Mo and the family

Bolger is a co-founder and Director of Equinome. Darley are one of his main clients. Suggestions that Bolger is trying to pull a fast one by selling the Arabs duds, is way off the mark.

Should Dawn Approach win the coventry.

Well??

He might do but seeing his last run I'd say he wants a bit further.Could he be yet another Dewhurst winner for JB later on?

I'd be disappointed if something didn't improve past him.

Dawn Approach seems to be the real deal. He will almost certainly improve over further. Godolphin and Sir Michael Stoute are bit players this year.

Newfangled wins impressively today as well.

Dawn Approach is bound to end up in the wrong hands and I have sneaky feeling should Move to strike win as well he be off too

New Approach didn't end up in the wrong hands ruby, either in training or it now seems at stud. Isn't Dawn Approach likely to remain where he is? After much money changing hands perhaps.

I don't know Potential.

Sure New Approach didn't go but that for me was a exception from the general rule

He let Chabal go in fairness and I reckon DA will turn out to be more Chabal than New approach at 3. It really could go either way. New Approach was an exceptional horse who ran amongst an exceptional crop of 3yos with Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator. Good to see that his big plain head isn't holding him back at stud. Most excitiung stallion Darley have had in a while.

I mean to say I don't think he holds this fella in the esteem of his sire.

Chabal was bred by Lady OReilly and her connections and she only sold a half share to Bolger as a foal. So if the money was right which at the time it was a ridiculous high sum, its hard to say he knew the horse wasnt that good and he caught them with one. I think it was more an offer they couldnt refuse.

Three Royal Ascot 2yo winners for New Approach-impressive-and Lovely Pass has given Ravens Pass a nice start as well.

New Approach on fire!!!!.

His fee surely going to pop up to Sharamdal's next year if he keeps going well.

Another impressive winner for New Approach today.

Perhaps this acquisition, along with Raven's Pass, were two of the better ones for Darley.

Darley are not the problem its Godolphin training thats the problem IMO

Disagree.

The likes of Halling, Dubai Destination and Singspiel were never able to compete with Montjeu, Galileo and Danehill.

The Sheikh appears to say very little to the public nowadays.  Perhaps he's starting to lose interest and without strong leaders in the team it's all gone horribly wrong for his highness.

After Clare Balding's attempted hijacking of him after New Approach's 2013 Guineas win - the al-Zarooni affair - he hasn't been near an "unfriendly" microphone since. One loses one's head in the Gulf for less.