Sheikh Mohammed: Godolphin Farce

amazing they never had a 2000 guineas horse and as you say no real derby candidate again by the looks of things.

Jim Bolger making Teofilo??

Godolphin cant even promote there own Sires that Darley paid a kings ransom for.

Mandean pulled up nearly as was that horse at York in the 2mile race or whatever it is.

How long can this last...no runners in The Derby, Cornation Cup and one runner in the Oaks.

Again I say it...400 odd horses in training. It is laughable.

Godolphin have a great broodmare band but Juddmonte have fantastic sires in Oasis Dream and Dansili.

Don't really use much of them. Jim Bolger made Teofilo last year and starting again with New Approach.

It starts with the trainers for me.

It strikes me that Darley support their stallions well at the sales, which is what breeders want. As PotM eluded to, there will be plenty of hangers on collecting large sums of money for being yes men. All that said, their operation is massive and to have such moderate success must be simply more than the boss being pig headed.

I think that the two trainers are handicapped by having to do well in Dubai. It means their main focus is not on preparing horses for Classics.

They really need to have more trainers and make sure thye undertake different tasks. Have a British based trainer for the 3yo's with no side issues. Again revert to a 2yo trainer if anyone will take on that mantle. Then have two to train the other horses.

Where to start?

Moyglare, Aga Khan, the Arabs (to a minor extent) all recognise that Ireland is the place to breed foals and its where most or all of Godolphin's breeding resources should be, managed by the world-renowned Irish expertise and not dictated from Dubai.

Their breeding programme has been appalling for the past decade or more and choosing non-Irish UK-based expertise is a big reason they have failed. Look at the big knobs that have come and gone (Stroud, De Burgh etc) and you can see that human blood seems more important than equine-related talent.

As proof-positive of how misguided they are is the fact that their NUMERO UNO adviser is now dividing his time training national hunt cast-offs and Frankie Dettori (the most charismatic jockey we have EVER seen) is now being treated abominably by the Sheikh. I ask you!!

Every aspect of Godolphin is a money effluent tank (breeding, training and buying) and I will advance the following cursory glance through the leading racehorse earners from just 2011 and 2012 to prove my case:

Here's the list of Ballydoyle high-achievers:

Power c
So You Think c
Camelot c
Pour Moi c
Fame & Glory c
Treasure Beach c
Seville c
Roderic O'Connor c
St Nicholas Abbey c

Homecoming Queen f
Misty For Me f
Maybe f

Vincent O'Brien always maintained you had to be a buyer (as well as a breeder) to keep on top of the game. Every colt mentioned above was bought either at publicly auction or privately by John Magnier and his lieutenants. They probably invested far, far less than Godolphin but returned an exponential return on their dough.

The three fillies are home-breds.

QED

P.S. The industry in the British Isles (including Ireland) would be on its knees without the largesse of the Gulf but HOW they spend their money is what this debate is all about. Anyone else would have thrown their hat at the wanton waste many years ago as it now serves no promotional purpose-the opposite in fact judging on what most posters say.

Little point in contributing to this..as per usual it becomes a 'the irish / Coolmore' are great thread.  To say the issue is where the foals are bred is frankly bizarre (let alone ignoring the fact that hundreds if not thousands of arab owned foals are bred in ireland).

Coolmore,Juddmonte,H.H Aga Khan all have a well documented overall plan and stick to it,their success speaks for itself.What's Darleys Is it a case of trying to be everything to everyone?Is that possible?

I do acknowledge that there are probably more noteworthy breeders plying their trade in Ireland, but it's a little crazy to give carte blanche to the notion that 'Ireland is the place to breed foals'!

If I walk round Goffs foal sale and then I go to Tatts I know which foals look better produced and which have had fewer problems. There is PLENTY of bad husbandry in Ireland and I daresay there is plenty of bad land in GB too.

In 2008 though there were twice as many mares plying their trade in Ireland than the UK and as I said probably better breeders there too. However of the 10 GB/Ire breds mentioned in Royal Academy's list it's 6 Ire/4 Gb. That's underperformance with you Royal Academy and worryingly so given your Brilliant breeders the best stallions!

Nothing's black and white!

Moyglare, Aga Khan, the Arabs (to a minor extent) all recognise that Ireland is the place to breed foals and its where most or all of Godolphin's breeding resources should be, managed by the world-renowned Irish expertise ?????


i see where you are coming from ra but this really is nonsense, ireland has become a horsebreeding hotpot due to several things it has a lot of agriculture and a lot of good horsemen ,
BUT  most of the large establishments are there for 1 main reason the beneficial rates of taxation which makes it financially the best place to be.

horses need grass and oats it is not too difficult any  reasonable farmer in an area where you dont have drought can produce all that is required to rear horses.

the blue grass of kentucky and the green grass of county kildare dont vary much and both are mostly water.

ireland since sangster,v o brien and magnier got into northern dancer has been the place to be ,but if tax regimes chance wherever the most tax efficient country to be in is where most of the big players will end up.



coolmore has irish racing by the nuts and if they are not carefull will gradually become its nemisis.

flush: I did admit in hindsight that the comment that you decided to comment on was unfair but its your prerogative to choose to ignore that fact 9 hours after I posted a retraction.

Therefore this thread neatly becomes an anti-Coolmore debate in one bound.

As we know from our on-going financial debacle (and the UK generosity in assisting its neighbour was one of the most noble gestures in the whole sorry episode) we are capable of getting many things wrong. However, in racing and breeding, we have something to help us to recover nationally and internationally.

The "tax incentive" issue is, I believe, something of a red herring. Ireland has withdrawn its favourable tax treatment of stallion income since 2008 and our standard of standing sire has not and will not diminish thanks to Sea The Stars, Camelot and perhaps even Frankel!!

Furthermore, there is very little "profit" made in breeding or racing generally with the commercial nous concentrated in the hands of a relatively small number of very shrewd and sharp opeartors who pay income and corporation tax on profits as any normal business. The biggest players (Aga, Arabs, JM/Tabor/Smith etc etc) and the smaller participants (small farmers, sole owners, syndicates etc) fund the game with discretionary wealth or disposable income as the industry in general is very cash-consuming.

Undoubtedly Ballydoyle are an overwhelming influence here but that hasn't prevented Oxx, Weld, Bolger, Wachman, Lyons, Stack, Prendergast etc providing plenty of competition. This debate is all about Sheikh Mohammed and its his failure to compete that is causing the predominance of Coolmore horses presently. The fortunes of Ballydoyle runners will swing around as usual in years to come but they will remain strong.

I would argue that Coolmore is probably a more efficient stud operation today that 15-20 years ago when they also had champion sires. At that time they believed every stallion should stand on their farms and satellites and this competition, particularly at the lower end of the market, led to the over-production crisis and taught them that competition was probably a good thing. The recession has made everyone leaner and meaner and there is now healthy competition amongst all stud farms and the glut of foals has disappeared. This concentartion on quality and the consequential culling of crap mares can only be positive.

Every country is/was entitled to tax their industry as they see fit and I would point to the ability of a UK racehorse owner to be able to reclaim VAT input costs as a case in point (some things make sense and the notion of taking a 17.5% "hit" on an expensive hobby, that is hugely job-creating, was never clever legislating). Its an incentive that worked for Ireland and did lead to a burgeoning in the strength of the breeding industry with its Northern Dancer concentration to the undoubted disadvantage of the US. North American racing continues, apparently, in terminal decline for two more reasons:
1. a failure to control doping
2. the average american regards "horse-players" as next to ****s (I once regaled a well-to-do Chicagoan dinner party with my interest in horse racing and I was almost asked to leave the room)

So, in my opinion, Ireland, for a country of small population and a rural and agricultural history, rates highly in this specific international industry. It is responsible for trainers and jockeys of renown, its citizens are to be found the world over running the largest stud operations and it has very significant presences in North America, Australia and far eastern markets are also about to open up. This could not happen without dominant characters and leaders and, as I said earlier, a lot of rough and tumble.

France, of course, has its off-course PM monopoly and this poses a threat for Irish and UK industries. Ireland's government has a far more benign and supportive attitude to its indigenous enterprises and long may that continue. The UK, on the other hand, are mired in on-going levy disputes and the government demonstrates its disinterest by selling off the Tote to a bookmaker who's only interest is the slot machines in 500+ shops.


Believe it or not, I am no fan of how Irish racing is presently constituted with civil sermants running horse racing ireland as puppeteers for nine or ten sectional interests but thats another story. In the meantime I am quite proud of what we have achieved reputationally on a world stage.

And don't forget the theme of this thread is the failure of Sheikh Mohammed to compete at the highest level with a bottomless pit of cash.

and frederico tesio went against the grain in  his breeding programme but produced ribot  nearco and then your northern dancer lineage.
everybody is jumping on the bandwagon and the genepool due to tesios sucess has been diluted to the detriment of the thoroughbred,
who is to say that the aga and sheik mo are going to be the savior of the thoroughbred and not coolmore who are very succesfull but with a very  small gene pool which may in my opinion end up harming the breed further.

It poses the question what would you have done without hindisght in building the SMohammed empire?
He started off great - select yearling sales and getting good broodmare bands from failing US firms when the market dipped in the late 80's.

From there the main mistake is his competition with Coolmore - if he had used their sires he would be ahead now - he would have been able to incorperated their expertise and his spending power - this is pointed out by Maximus earlier as a reason for failure ... 3) Boycott of Coolmore bloodstock/stallions.

...but I would be interested to know what posters would do if given a billion pounds to spend in 10 or so years..... lets not make it that hard - how about 250 million?

Its quite clear what you would do.

You would go back to Pedigree British and Irish Trainers and simply beg them beg them to take your horses back. Run back under the Red and forget this nationalist bullshit with Dubai.

Quick List of Horses that were completely ruined by Godolphin that were Group 1 Winners before:

Casemento
Kingsfort
Cutlass Bay
Cavarlyman
Mandean
Denman(Australia)


That is only in the last 2/3 years. Name all the other horses they purchased etc, remember Simon De Montfort the second coming.

Oh such waste such waste!

Don't disagree with most of what has been said above; but I wish people would get their terminology correct.

Fast Company was not BOUGHT by Godolphin, he was TRANSFERRED from one Maktoum owner to another.

Fast Company was BOUGHT by the Maktoums before the Dewhurst, prior to that race he was owned by Earle Mack.

Plenty of evidence to support your theory but i think you could point to as many failures that are owned by the other top owner/breeders if you look for them. Look at the hype surrounding Top Offer this spring. Looks very ordinary now despite the yard flying with other horses. Plenty more of the same if you look.

Remember Kingsfort and Chabal ? first and 2nd in the National Stakes , then to Godolphin, poor old Chabal ended up being gelded.