Slow You Think

Do you think he'll dual-shuttle Prima? If so, what would be his northern hemisphere fee and what difference would winning Dubai World Cup make? I'd go something like €15,000 perhaps €20,000 if he won in Dubai.

Yes Johnny I could see that scenario and I'd agree with you about the price but when it comes down to it its going to be hard work commercially being a son of High Chaparral so doubtless we will all get the hard sell.IMO winning in Dubai won't really enhance his appeal as the people who hold that race in the highest esteem  have a policy of not using Coolmore stallions,but I'm sure he will be very popular in Australia.Fastnet Rock got over his Australian-ness by dint of being a son of ever popular Danehill that represented speed and preciosity and had proven to get both along with some class and physically he is the sort to suit Green Desert type mares.
So You Think had his best wins in Australia,is not fast or early and doesn't look the type to get those sorts,as well as being a son of a stallion who is commercially tricky.No-one would be clamouring for a son of High Chaparral much less for an Antipodean one.

I always thought this was the likely scenario for this horse and I'm hoping that I said as much on here at some point!
They missed a potentially mega lucrative southern hemisphere with Starspangledbanner by keeping him here after the July Cup which I thought was crazy. He was the worlds best sprinter, had his reputation enhanced for the Aus market by taking on and beating 'up north' and was at his absolute zenith and then it all fizzled out. I thought that was a sporting decision at the time which I applauded because I sure as hell couldn't see how it was safe commercially.
I think So You Stink has had his reputation enhanced for the down under breeders because they can crack on with 'won everything in Aus so he went Northern Hemisphere and beat them on their turf bagging 3 gp1s along the way' spiel.
He is a hopeless bet to improve his lot this year, status quo is the most he could hope for and I'm sure the Starspangled decision ought to still grate.
Will he come back? I think that will entirely depend on what 2012 throws up as a potential sire for 2013. It's hard to believe that Ballydoyle and the like won't throw up a number of prospects that I find more attractive that's for sure.

i like High Chaparral, but fully accept he is not the most commercial stallion. Did he get the right type/quality mares when he started or have breeders been cautious from the outset?
He reminds me of Dylan Thomas, another great horse that looks like he is going to struggle. Did Galileo and Montjeu get great mares straight away?

Don't get me started truehoncho,this is a very sensitive subject for some on here.Some of the people who once commented on what I said ages ago couldn't imo see beyond the end of their noses.
Galileo,has from the start always had a decent book of mares,connections gave him every help from the off.
Montjeu,Given a chance with some good mares but most were the B list mares,with such a stamina packed pedigree and AT THE TIME sons of SW were not doing what was hoped for. The fact is connections had his future down as a high class NH sire.........Motivator changed their opinion and as a result he has gone on to really be better than Galileo when you look at the results they both have considering numbers and quality of their mares.
High Chaparral,has never been given the chances of the other two and as we often say on here a massive help stallions get is the quality of their books High Chap's has been the C list,he is in a way just another Derby winning son of SW and how many do they need?

sorry if i have hit a nerve PD, it was a genuine inquirey. I too, think Montjeu is a better stallion than Galileo for what its worth.

There was a time when HC was at 10k I thought he may even end up as a national hunt stallion. I think Motivator is not far off either. If I was breeding for myself I wouldn't hesitate to use the like of Motivator, Dylan Thomas etc at such low fee's.

Did seem like HC had turned a corner, some interest last year and a price hike, but seems to have collapsed this year. Galileo over Montjeu for me, but not beyond the other supersires.

I don't know that Galileo started off with the very best mares truehoncho. He was up against Sadlers and Danehill in his 1st two seasons and even dropped behind 'the great' Fasilyev in one season! and was negotiable at 37k in years 5 and 6. There was pretty much a predjudice against sons of Sadlers at the time. Good enough mares though and I do think that High Chaparral has had good enough mares too.
You only have to look at stallions like Danehill Dancer and Pivotal to see how a good stallion will grab his opportunities. High Chaparral was never like them plying his trade for a few quid and a couple of bales of straw!

I think that breeding to race does present all sorts of interesting opportunities but Motivator wouldn't be one of them! Dylan is too wrong yearie to consider too I think.

You haven't hit a nerve truehoncho I was meaning a year or two ago I expressed my opinion on the merits of Galileo v Montjeu as sires.At the time former posters were completely blinded by both stallions success, completely missing my point finding it impossible to understand their perceived merits and expectations.
As for using either Motivator or Dylan Thomas as NH sires personally I'd go for DT as he's had more mares.

i find it difficult to assess these high quality race horses after a couple of crops at stud. HC seems to me to have done fairly well. I would imagine that when the crops from the years of his 25k increase come around he will improve again proxygene.

I think many stallions now show a trend of one good season and a time lag until the better mares that go to him as a result produce 2yo's.

If you look back over past threads Truehoncho you can probably find the original Galileo V Montjeu debate.

Without going over old ground I would just say this; When Montjeu went to stud he was seen as an out and out 12f horse (despite his Gr1 win over 10f, something Galileo cannot boast... ) with a staying family, who was the highest-rated son of a sensational sire, but a sire that had a poor record as a sire of successful stallions. He had to be given a chance, but long-term the view was that he was going the way of many other S W's sons. Jumping. He blew the expectations out of the water.

Galileo on the other hand, well he was a good looking son of an Arc winner. Another by the legendary Sadlers Wells, who was getting older and a replacement was yet to be uncovered......Galileo was hyped as a racehorse, usually a sign of the 'Next Big Thing' as far as Coolmore stallions go. Physically Galileo looked right. He hinted at the chance of getting 2yo's. His family, although German, had plenty going on and good horses at all distances were cropping up.

Coolmore needed a S W replacement, they needed to look for the next generation for a future without SW and Danehill. Danehill Dancer had potential for the latter, but the former need help.

Galileo got that help. Even then though in his third season Galileo was covering jump mares belonging to Coolmore associates. (Inc Lady Cricket, the result of which won yesterday) Montjeu was expected to fail, but despite that exceeded the wildest hopes and churns out Derby horses at a fantastic rate. Galileo was earmarked to succeed. He was helped in every way. The level of his success and the speed of his dominance is unexpected. The fact he succeeded is not.
And then comes High Chap. Another Derby winner, another good racehorse by SW. What do they do with him? He might be another great like M and G. He might be another In the Wings or Old Vic. He def cana't have the complete A list as they are allocated to Galileo, The B list are booked to Montjeu, so some are moved and some are shuffled, but on the whole Coolmore don't really *need* H C so he has to take his chances on the wider market. He has done well. Not brilliant, but OK. He is not wildly commercial but I wouldn't not buy a mare just because she was in-foal to him. HE may be ok as a BM sire. Would I rush to pay 15-20k to use a son of his? No.

SYT will be held back by his Aus/NZ ancestry, his perceived disappointments in his Northern Hemisphere season, and not least by his sire.If he was by Galileo it would be a different story entirely.......

Totally unfair opening post.

W.S. Cox Plate (2009 & 2010)
Underwood Stakes (2010)
Yalumba Stakes (2010)
LKS Mackinnon Stakes (2010)
Tattersalls Gold Cup (2011)
Eclipse Stakes (2011)
Irish Champion Stakes (2011)

I dont think he has much to prove to anyone.

In The Wings and Old Vic? Surely not in the same breath Slick'N'Smooth. I know that In The Wings didn't bring much to the 2yo scene and couldn't be considered commercially reliable but he was a good sire by all measures but 2yo stats.

I wouldn't be fighting to use a big, backward, wind infirm son of Galileo either although I appreciate it might tip the balance for some.

A very interesting post as ever, I'll let the rest go though as I like to save my best nit picking for Prima Donna

Slick'N'Smooth

thanks for taking the time to bring me up to date. It seems one way or another Coolmore have it all tightly under control.

Like the last Montjeu / Galileo discussion - history is what each person decides it to be.  In my humble opinion (clearly not as worthy as others) the idea that Galileo is only superior to Montjeu because Coolmore designed it to be so thru their broodmare allocation is poppy kok. If thats a valid argument can the proponents tell us which current sire is getting the same 'help' and is being 'made' to succeed?  Or more importantly the ones 'expected' to fail.  This inside info would be terribly helpful, thanks in advance.

"Totally unfair opening post.

W.S. Cox Plate (2009 & 2010)
Underwood Stakes (2010)
Yalumba Stakes (2010)
LKS Mackinnon Stakes (2010)
Tattersalls Gold Cup (2011)
Eclipse Stakes (2011)
Irish Champion Stakes (2011)

I dont think he has much to prove to anyone."

Not an unfair opening post Black Sam, but perhaps a rather stark appraisal. However the first four races you list are not especially relevant to IRE and UK breeders I'm afraid. IF they had been backed up by good wins here then perhaps they would add weight. However the form of the nest three quoted does not stand very strict scrutiny. Perhaps Coolmore's hype has bitten them, too much expectation placed on the Aus wonder horse and some convincing wins needed to back up that reputation. Beating Campanologist and Famous Name doesn't do that, and even Snow Fairy is not a wholly reliable yardstick. The Derby winner being beaten in the Eclipse is a regular event nowadays, not a surprise.

Potential Millionaire, I am afraid I was never a big fan of In The Wings,to me he was latched onto because of his sire's need for a good son and now whenever I hear the name I immediately think 'Singspiel'!

As for nit picking Prima Donna, go right ahead, he loves it!

Yer Ma,Everyone's opinion is valid, but I think if you re-read my original post you will see that I say that Galileo looks more a physical type to succeed commercially as he looks as though he would get 2yo sales sorts. He also has a strong family that is throwing up good horses year after year. I am a big believer in family when it comes to a sire's success. If all of those attributes are clear to Coolmore and to breeders like myself, the surely others would see the same and send good mares?

With Montjeu it is nearly the opposite situation. He is not a great looking horse that really fills your eye, he doesn't look as though he will get sales types. His family is old and his dam was a stayer by a stayer. He did possess an electric turn of foot however and there are plenty of breeders that mark this as the sign of a potentially good sire.

As I said in my first post Montjeu's level of success was a surprise, Galileo's level of success was also a surprise (though a very pleasant one I am sure) just because he showed every potential and was given every help there are no guarantees until the racecourse results. I remember well the niggling doubts after his first crop ran at 2yo, with no stakes horse until the Washington Singer.

As for future sires, maybe Fastnet Rock is worth a look...?

One cant argue the potential Galileo had and he was clearly supported but I just dont see that Coolmore had a machiavellian-esque influence via their broodmare band.  To me in the early 2000s they were determined to go down the Danehill route and additionally find a new (American) solution, like via Storm Cat.  Galileo has turned out to be mana from heaven but not a grand design.  After all they dont have one of his exciting sons (yet).  Moot point anyway, he's the real deal and will become a great broodmare sire too I think (and hope)

We'll never stop debating What makes a good sire, who makes a good sire and what constitutes a good horse will we.

The value of form, of family and of venue are all endlessly arguable too. Good job we don't all agree as three stallions and AI would be the only option!

Obviously Coolmore are the canniest operators there are, full stop. I though have to take on board what yer ma says in that they cannot make a silk purse out of a sows' ear and history is littered with their failed attempts (their big foray into Nureyev and way before that, Forli). Perhaps the best way of looking at it is that if the stallion has what it takes they would be as quick as any in producing the results.

I am coming round to Fastnet Rock, and certainly they are! I would be running scared though at the sort of fee that is being bandied about (I don't know the reality). People are buying into it though but given the disparity of results gained in the two hemispheres by most shuttling stallions I don't think he is a great shot at being the next big thing up here too. I Can see why I might be wrong but I'd like to not spend too much while I waited to find out.

Incidentally. 6 of the 12 Fastnet Rock first foals were withdrawn from the 2012 breeding stock sales and the remaining 6  included 2 definitely unsold. No mega money for what was left - a slightly indifferent start to world domination!

Its obvious reading this thread we have got sort of sidetracked and again it seems fairly sensitive still.NO ONE is stupid enough to think that stallion success just comes down to sending it the best mares,as there does come a time when the stallion has to turn it in.Both of these two Coolmore stallions have gone beyond original expectations,but as Pot M say's connections are perhaps the canniest operators they will hedge their bets hence both have had their share of class jump mares (in the early years)as regardless of the quality of their books there is no guarantee of success,but if you look at each stallions books you will then see who has been given the best poss' route to success in terms of quality and numbers.Both have made it both have shown they can sire top class stock,one has sort of done it the hard way.

And yer ma that post you put on last night at 22.56 to me sounds a little chippy and sarcastic!

I think we are all prone to that occasionally Prima - yes even . . .

Main thing is we keep it to a minimum

Sarcastic for sure but no reason to be chippy - I've no vested interest or axe to grind.  I dont actually think we're disagreeing much here.  I dont dispute G on balance has had better books than M.  Its the idea Coolmore 'expected' G to succeed and 'made' it so I contest.  Just like I wouldnt agree that Darley expected Dubawi to and can be credited with making it so with the mares used.  And similarly with Makfi, Redvers can buy up all the top mares he can get his hands on but it wont 'make' Makfi. Or Sea the Stars.  Or Frankel in time.  I believe we can increase our chances with the right mares (or stallions choices) but expecting success is bravado or something you claim with hindsight.  Anyway...

I've as much interest in SYT as High Chap, ie. very little.

Yer Ma, I think we agree but are coming at it from different angles.I am not saying that Coolmore expected G to succeed just because they choose his mares carefully, if that was the case everything would be a success. I am talking about the relative expectations of M versus G and the mare quality that came form those expectations. The Tweenhills example is a good one, Redvers is buying up every top class mare to try and 'make' Makfi, or at least give him a hand up the ladder, but he didn't do the same for Sleeping Indian. Because the 'expectation' of high-level success as a sire wasn't there. In the Coolmore scenario Galileo is the helped along Makfi who has both pedigree and physique to compliment racecourse performance, whereas Montjeu would be Sleeping Indian, helped enough to remain commercial for as long as poss but not really expected to have much influence long term. The reason it all comes back to mare quality is when trying to appraise the relative merits of both M and G. There is no dispute that G has achieved better results  than M and his progeny have won a much more diverse range of races, but it is the distance travelled form the usual standard a mare would usually get that shows who can claim to be 'better'. Basically who upgrades his mares more? With Galileo's mares being so good to start with he in effect has to 'do' less to them than Montjeu does with his. Montjeu's drawback is that seemingly he mostly does Derby type colts, but I don't think that is the total limit of his ability and over time as the runners that resulted from Coolmore supporting him more we may see more strings to Montjeu's bow. Maybe he could do great things with Galileo's book,could we be certain of the same results from G if starting from M's level?

i find this thread very interesting. What about Duke of Marmalade? he must have had decent mares if his sales results are anything to go by. 65 yearlings sold for an average of 65k. Are coolmore supporting him with good class mares? Do they need a staying son of Danehill or are they just getting as much as they can as quick as they can with him?

From what I have learned in this thread I would put him in the Montjeu bracket (in terms of support). Would I be right or is he a different kettle of fish?

I think mare for mare Galileo does upgrade more than Montjeu, albeit from an already higher level. He also does it with more consistency but how much of that comes down to mental stability vs Montjeu?

wont win in dubai

great debate about the merits of Galileo v Montjue, i have to say my opinion is that Galileo was given an easier task with the books he got. i understand that the types G gets v the types M gets, (G gets relative early 2year olds, M gets autumn 2yr from 7f to 1m2f), but for me i really cant understand how Sir M Stoute doesnt get sent 40 Montjues a year as they are the exact type he trains, (late summer type who progress intop a derby type).
another thought would be why Giants Causeway doesnt get the support Galileo enjoys, for years the boys in Coolmore sought a great son of Storm Cat, to have their next superstar, they got him and got classic winners form him (footsteps and Sham) yet now he is stateside we dont see very many here abiet i know he gets quality US books but he hasnt really blown up over there, and if AOB had a few more a year i can see them having a better sire than footstepinthesand,
the same may stand for HTN in a few years time, they supported Kingmambo for yeasr trying to get a quality stallion and now they have one and i hope he gets the right support even tho i understasnd AOB has 12 colts this year.
the who upgrade who better debate is very open to opinion, it really depend on what type you value more, an early 2year old who looks good and sells well, or a horse that needs the time to develop and maybe even a 4thyear until he gets his best.

Said it before on here - I think they should have HTN over here, 18k fee they'd be fighting them off.  But maybe I'm just too much a Kingmambo fan (they should bring GC over and half his fee so I can cover my Kingmambo mare too).  Mind you with Camelot to smash allcomers next year maybe I should be siding with Montjeu after all!

i am so much against Camelot if he tackles the 2000G! i do agree that henry should be here atleast for his 1st year, but there should be soemway of accomidating breeders willing to send a mare stateside, be it a big reduction or else freeboarding or a deal with the flying the mare over or a combo of all 3!
I would love to see a good few GC over here, i mean if he covers a book of 130, 30 over here would make him more competive and ,aybe we could get another son of his at stud here

DMCK,why are so against Camelot taking on the NMKT 2000?Is your reasoning maybe remembering St.Nicholas Abbey's run?Are you one of the many who think its impossible for Montjeu to get a guineas winner simply just because he's by Montjeu.Even the greatest trainer gets things wrong at times SNA was a prime example,I'd say they have very much learned a lesson there and I also think connections will handle Camelot less aggressively than SNA this spring.Think about it a comment above about the temperament Montjeu can get.Give them a little too much too quick(remember he looked over trained on GNS day) and they can chuck the towel in rather like SNA.I'd be sure as eggs are eggs bar injury Camelot will be lining up at HQ.
I too have a few Kingmambo mares,Kingmambo is a stallion imo to be very careful using as he is imo a 'secret stamina influence'it wont surprise me if Henry doesn't get early sorts I'd be thinking more like 'back end' sorts myself.Slick likes him and we have used him she's keener than me mind.Personally I think GC is in the best place.


Yer ma,after me posting that long piece above and with no reply do you at least see the point I'm making?

PD yes, i dont think Montjeu will get a Guineas winner, yes its from SNA (at which time i laid him but had him for the derby thinking it was a good place to start the year). my main reason for thinking camelot wont win the guineas is that i dont like a horse will over a mile as a 2year old abnd then trying to win over amile again in the highest level (frankel and STS put me wrong there but both had had tackled 7f races and were by speedier sires)
Yes SNA may have been over trained but i dont thinkj even if AOB could turn back time SNA will wouldnt win it!! he can turn up at HQ and you know if he runs even 5th i think it would be fine for him despite the fact that my antipost pick reads Akeed Mofeed and parish hall

Sorry, I do.  I've nothing at all against Montjeu and regard him as one of the top 5 stallions in Europe. I've just never liked handling his offspring (particularly fillies) and have avoided in terms of broodmares.  An experiment of 1 year each covering the same mars would be very interesting.  I suggest M would produce the best horse but G would produce twice as many very good ones.

i would just like to clarify that im in the Montjeu camp

Well I happen to think Montjeu will get a gns winner and I think sooner rather than later,I also think that yer ma's point about the temprememnt esp' with some fillies is correct we too like him have avoided him as a BM sire but that may have to change,in fact we had a filly foal recently by him.But I like to think temperament can and does go hand in hand with sheer brilliance similar to maybe a certain ex Micheal Stoute and Ballydoyle jockey perhaps.This year could be a very big year for Montjeu I hope it is,but I somehow doubt it will change Coolmores policy with him over Galileo long-term anyhow.Just getting quickly back to SNA's run at HQ I wasn't there that day as I was on business in the states but I did see the run and I think he ran free,that said to me he was over the top.After giving him plenty of time off he has come back to be a very good colt now for-filling the promise he had shown before they 'buggerd him up'I agree with you yer ma Montjeu would get the best runner.

i dohope he will get a triple crown winner, but i think that elusive colt will need to be a type who won  a group contest over a sharp 7f as a 2year old, Camelot has only raced over a mile thus far and i really feel that anythng under 10f will be on the shapre side for him as horses grown their stamina increases and horses who were G1 in the 6f a nd 7f divisions are the big contenderrs for the mile classic.
As a BM sire watch this space i think, Parish Hall could be the 1st of many. i hope it is a big year for him and would love if he really stuck it to Galileo in the sires list! His filly Wading has me very very excited (winniong over 7f in nemarket i could see her winning th 1000G with  a very strong gallop!),
I do hope your mares are having fine healthy offspring and that the mild winter has given them an extra advantage selling as yearling (maybe that only applies to the irish breeders tho!!)

DMCK, the TC is as I understand it is the plan,they were under pressure last time with SNA as they wanted to 'upstage' STS so as a result SNA was trained too hard the whole thing went horribly wrong,they wont make that mistake this time.And I too am hopeful of success with Wading.So far the mares are turning out the goods its going great thanks...could do with a few more colts mind,saying that have a couple of nice colts by the colt who beat SNA at HQ I'm pleased with them.
Don't be worrying too much about winning over a mile at 2,very good horses can and do,like the ones above shall we also add Dancing Brave to the list as well!Goodnight DMCK even I have to sleep from time to time

guys my view fwiw I was at doncaster camelot is the most unlike montjeu i have seen! he was cool as a cucumber and no sign of a high head (typical of the sire) the speed he showed he would win over 6f and he will be a very diff prop to sna if he turns up on gns day

jonnyrotten,I agree with that,but I will always hold the view SNA had the ability to win the guineas.I was lucky enough to see him working in the spring of his 3y'old year,what he showed was outstanding he had an electrifying turn of foot like his sire.But as has been often said most of the best Montjeu's have a streak of temperament he had that alright and perhaps that was his downfall at NMKT or at least a serious contributing factor to his defeat.We have been told by connections that they "always believed he could walk on water"I think they did and so forgot horses are like us sometimes we all have had enough.I'm firmly of the opinion that connections started to take notice of many people's view that Montjeu couldn't get a guineas winner and so worked the horse too hard in his preparation,in doing so it cost them the very real chance of success,had he won then I'm sure he would of gone to Epsom then later on to Doncaster contesting the Triple Crown,had he won it would of gold plated Montjeu as a sire and given connections a great deal of satisfaction in upstaging Sea The Stars's victory's the year before as don't forget he was a son of a Darley sire.Myself I don't think they will make that mistake again I'm sure you will see him at NMKT but this time I think connections will play down any TC bid choosing to play their cards close,but I also think that is very much the plan.This year could be Montjeu gaining a much deserved sire's Championship.Lets hope so!

I think that Historys' best broodmare sires have been big, and from lines with a lot of temperament. I suppose that Sadlers is putting lie to that to some extent, but he has the help of all the best pedigrees of the last 30 years within his daughters. I would have every faith in Montjeu as a broodmare sire as his temperament is probably all about Top Ville and Cranky old High Top who were both good examples of damsires who exceeded their ability as sires of runners.

Mind you as you and I are in at the sharp end yer ma, perhaps not the best fun to have around I grant you!

My best mare covered yesterday so I'm a little bit chipper today!

Is the foal getting on well and is it by the one who faces his runners next year?And dare I ask who did you cover the best mare with?Is she the dam of the high priced foal last sales?Glad you are chipper...over the man flu then!

Blimey. I'm glad I've never worked for you, it's like having a bl00dy elephant perched on my shoulder - who never forgets My father was a useful Rugby player, just about scraping county level, so I'm  aware of how well some of his compatriots in that sphere did. And now, why!

Yes the foal is fine thanks. Doesn't look like a world beater but it's a family that improve after birth so we'll wait and see. Correct sire assessment!

Correct mare assessment too. Now I'm going to have to be canny on the sire. I think you are using him but we could both be risking a Gold Cup Winner, no way of knowing yet!

Glad the foal is doing well I always prefer the 'improver' sort against the 'little model' type as those sorts almost always let you down.I'm guessing if he goes on the right way this year you will sell him at Dec'wont you?I'll let you into a secret I really don't mind the idea of breeding a Gold Cup winner,and as for the Rugby that was an awful long time ago.Does your father remember me did I ever play against him?I don't know about never forgetting things now I do it all the time I never forget a face even from years ago but increasingly I'm forgetting peoples names,old age no doubt!
And you aren't the first person mind maybe the first man to draw comparisons with an Elephant and mebut that's another thing altogether!

I'm struggling to find the help section on Betfair that details cryptography, any pointers?

Join the club proxygene, I havn't got a clue what sires these two go on about half the time.

"is it by the one who faces his runners next year"??

The code breakers at Bletchley park had an easier time breaking the enigma code.

Sorry I was asking Pot M about his mare and foal whilst respecting his anonymity which is important on any internet forum,this one is no exception!
When I asked 'is it by the one who faces his runners next year' that's because the foals sire faces his runners next year,I had a very good idea but not certain what stallion Pot M had used.Asking that way doesn't give out information that he may not want made public,its just respecting like I say his anonymity that's all.You may have noticed on one of the other threads I was telling him about one of the foals we had I said it was by the one like me 'big-headed'(I know I must sound it to some on here) knowing full well he would know who I was talking about,if you can't guess it is by Fastnet Rock we call him big head as he has a workman like head or as like to say honest.These are just terms used by people who are familiar with horses or 'horse-men'.Improver=the sort of foal who is highly likely to improve conformationally with age,Little model= the sort of foal who is born looking fantastic generally with a lovely slick coat all the time looking so good it cant get much better........those sorts as a rule don't and tend to not grow on to their maximum potential.Hope this helps breaking the 'enigma code'

Given we're in an educating / informing sort of mood...what do you think of Frank Rohault?  There is a 3yo son of 'ours' (not owned by us) with him - meant to be good. I've been mulling sending him the half sis we want to keep.  Risking being vulgar..is he grande d'argent

Given we're in an educating / informing sort of mood...what do you think of Frank Rohault?  There is a 3yo son of 'ours' (not owned by us) with him - meant to be good. I've been mulling sending him the half sis we want to keep.  Risking being vulgar..is he grande d'argent

yer ma,I'm guessing you mean Francois Rohaut,yes I know him and sending him a filly would be a good idea as imo he is a very talented trainer capable of getting the best out of a filly,good choice yer ma......and the last bit NO!

Sorry yer ma not my territory.

PP and proxygene, Prima Donna has a good idea who I am hence we don't have too much to lose between each other but I don't want my identity to be in widespread circulation hence how it gets a bit cryptic. I apologise if it all gets a bit childish/frustrating on here, but we've smallish minds and it keeps us amused!

Prima, no I don't think my father would have run in to you, but sadly he is no longer around to ask.
Will certainly hope to be represented in December, as long as I'm not in no bid territory we'll give it a go. And I am now beginning to worry that age is playing tricks with you - elephant blessed my arse!
If we are heading in to Gold Cup territory - and the reason I am taking a chance is as a model he doesn't necessarily look the type does he - then I hope it's yours that runs at Cheltenham and mine at Ascot

Thank you - I'll investigate further.  She's an orphan (and none the worse believe it or not) so want to do best by her.  Going to be a 3yo so no hurry.  I like the sound of the last bit.

Hi PD and PM, I can't believe anyone on here doesn't love puzzles and trying to crack the code after all isn't that breeding horses. Terminology I think can be worked out it's the gossip that takes longer, and having referred back to the Coolmore website I see what you mean, not that it's an issue for me at this stage. Now back to the gold cup reference........ no don't spoil it and tell me.

Oh but you see Pot M I really am elephant blessed.........honest looking in the mirror what stands out a mile is my big nose and at my age I'm covered in wrinkly skin!!!What did you think I was on about Sorry to hear about your father mentioning him I thought he was still with us tacked is not one of my strong points.Good luck with the foal keep us updated as to his progress I'm always interested.
And I do agree looking at him I couldn't imagine he'd get a Gold Cup winner least of all at Cheltenham mind you there is always a first.....you rather than me for that mind!

yer ma,Francois Rohaut is as I said a very good trainer esp' with fillies thinking about it I might of sounded a bit cavaliering when saying 'No'I know people all work on different budgets.Like all things prices vary if some say have several in training then perhaps they may get a deal above an individual who has just the one.I suppose the right answer should be he's very competitive.but I'm guessing with the filly you are wanting some black type I'd say with Francois you will at least get the best chance of attaining some assuming she herself has the ability he seems always to get the best out of them,and importantly he's straight with his owners.If she's developed well despite being an orphan I can't see that being a problem......didn't exactly stop Sir Percy did it,good luck I hope it all goes well for you,choosing Francois is a very 'switched on' idea well done!

I wasn't having a go,  I appreciate everyone's right to anonymity here.  I had an inkling the "big headed one" was Fastnet Rock but it was just that an inkling.  I'm just nosey I guess and enjoy knowing who is using which stallions and why and how those offspring progress.

I sometimes forget that a third party who you may have been slighly less than complementary about on another thread might be able to work out who you are by you revealing details of those sires you have used.

Anyway I'll try the cryptic thing myself, so PotM, your mare that didn't go in foal to a certain stallion last year, have you found a sire for her this year?  Would you consider trying said stallion again or is it a case of once bitten twice shy?  Presumably you were able to crack on early with her this year.  Maybe she's in foal already?

Posh Paddy, I didn't think for a minute you were having a go! I just think that sometimes we might get a bit boring when we go off on a tangent so it was an apology for that really.
The large part of the appeal for that stallion I - and many others - did not get in foal to was his first seasonality. Given that he is now established as very tricky, Northern and Southern hemisphere, it was no good anyone so much as passing me a barge pole! The mare in question is booked but given as you say I needed to crack on early I sure left it very late before making my mind up. I love my 1st seasoners and I didn't think this year was easy in that respect and proven commercial stallions are few and far between and in many cases over priced I feel.

Prima Donna, no need to worry about putting your foot in it, my father died a few years ago, but I think if he's looking down he would be chuckling when we have an exchange or two, he'd have loved to have your sporting record that's for sure.

I took a photo of the foal today and as we spend so long pouring over pictures of horses in this game  I sometimes think a picture is more educational than the eyes! Certainly I was really struck how he is a real member of the 'family'  which can be good, but not always. And harking back to the new born foals and the progress they make...
I daresay we were all bombarded by the picture of the Alfred Nobel foal out of Applaud that Coolmore are using in their publicity. I did think that it was a really well balanced likeable type and I can well see why they would be shouting about it. HOWEVER it could well be a perfect illustration of the ready and able type that won't go on couldn't it?
The Ripvanwinkle foals however didn't look like they were the type to grind to a halt.

Yer ma, at what age did your orphan filly become orphaned?

I had one a few years ago that lost it's mother at 2 1/2 months old which I was reliably informed was too old to foster. You wouldn't think for a minute that it was held back though as it was a great eater at that stage and it was chaperoned by Granny and her foal and breezed through. However, it wasn't the soundest in training although sire and dam were not problematical in that sense, so I always wonder what might have been.

Pot M, I'm sure if we had all met including your father I dare say it would of been a laugh and I'd say we would all have plenty to speak about that's for surelooking back it all seems so long ago.
Of the Coolmore photo's I too liked the Alfred Nobel foals he does seem to get the sorts to win at 2 but I'd have to say Rip Van Winkle's foals don't exactly scream early sorts.Why don't you try to put the photo of the foal on here?Plenty would like a look I'm sure.

I think posting a photo - particularly off my phone - on here is beyond my capabilities. However the foal is only 6 days old so you could all be vile about it and I could still just about convince myself that, given time . . .

So, unlikely but I'll give it some thought!

Go on you know you want to!!!Mind you last year when I posted a picture I had to get one of my grandson's to do it for me so I do know what your on about!

Can ye lot explain to me whu there isn't a conformation photo of alfred nobel in the stallion book or the Coolmore website, he was potentially a stallion I thought would suit my mare but is it a case that there is something to hide or what is the reason, thanks

ovalu, I haven't seen Alfred Nobel but a lack of photo would only mean one thing. He ain't too photogenic right now.

I always worry a bit about the Warning in him which would perhaps keep him quite lightweight, but if you're thinking about using him then get down there!

I have successfully xferred a picture of a week old foal from my phone to the computer so if any one wants to see said cuddly colt then I need to be told how to download it on to here. Even lazy b@st@rd me doesn't have any more hours in the day to unsuccessfully devote to said attempts!

Alfed Nobel is very similar to Mastercraftsman......on the light side and atm leggy.If any of you want a much better looking son of Danehill Dancer out of a warning mare with a pedigree then take a look at Air Chief Marshal,looking at both of them there is no comparison Air Chief is a beautiful looking young sire.

yer ma,In the end did you get in touch with Francois Rohaut?

Alfred Nobel struck me as being very narrow.

They are showing more interesting Alfred Nobel foals on his latest ad. It interests me that they have taken a new picture of the one out of Applaud which suggests to me that there aren't too many nice candidates. They are also showing a nice quality filly who looks the spit of the light backward type that would not ammuse the commercial lads, strange choice.

What are they going to do with So You Think. Didn't handle surface.

Horrific effort!!!....retire him now I would think.

I'd totally agree ruby!

I wish my 'Horrific effort' s in life netted me 300+ k! At least SYT keeps the wolf from the door and earns his bucket of Gruel. Not the slightest question in my mind that we will see him back in the 'North'. I hope the Aussies know what to do with him at stud.

Aidan sure is getting the hang of Meydan though. The prize money is so ridiculous you've got to give it a shot as plenty of horses are winning considerably more than their value at stud!

Money is astonishing but to be beaten by Monterosso by in a hack canter is just awful viewing.

To me now he was a overhyped flop based on his performances in a largely inferior circuit in Australia but his size and athletic brilliance(size of him and look) we always gave him a chance to succeed. He has not done it and its no fault of the trainer, the fact is he has no change in gear what so ever, he is as the starter of this thread said nothing but a beautiful looking boat.

I would not even attempt to pay the 50k odd fee he will be. Market him down in Australia. At least they bought Canford and Excellabration. Good buys!!

As you say Rubyis, the non sprinting scene in Aus is probably consistently just a bit below ours. SYT wasn't a superstar up here but he was good enough in many respects.

Do we all think they will give him a berth up here in Tipperary? Grange Stud would find him room though!

They will dual him it be weird if they did not considering previous form.

Henry I think can be there next big sire. They really need after Montjeu fall from grace, Danehill Dancer at the end of the road and less than inspiring starts for the new sires such as Dylan and Hurricane Run. Then again Montjeu has yet to prove he is a sire of sires so it may not be a complete and utter disaster but certainly is a big blow to them from the Holy Trinity of Coolmore sires over the past few years.

Fasnet obviously is going to be the next big thing, he stats are astounding.

Also they are badly lacking in the Galileo Department, RVW and Cape Blanco are not sexy enough for me to get the juices flowing compared to alternative of Frankel and Teofilo and to a lesser extent New Approach. Galileo has not delivered they success they hoped for in regarding sires they stand. They dont have any 2yr olds From Galileo colt side that are Classic contenders, Its Montjeu again and maybe a Pivotal in Nephrite. Another Irish Derby prob from the late maturing types but if Camelot wins the Derby he go the Dual Derby route and close off all Galileo.

It really is getting drastic for Coolmore in terms of Galileo Colts, they want to shake the Leprechaun at the Rainbow that has for so long brought riches to them. With Galileo already having a health scare its time to get ultra aggressive on his stock for a few years. Who knows if he will even last as long as Montjeu

If I didn't know any different Pot'M I'd say you like this horse, are you thinking he might be in with a squeak of getting a mare from you? I suppose he could be a similar type to Tiger Hill........!

Rubyisgod, You have made some very good valid points there. Perhaps Coolmore might rue the day they decided to send all their best mares to Galileo every year. It is rather ironic that for all that Coolmore achieved in making the SW/Danehill dynasties, Juddmonte have ended up with arguably the best Northern Hemi son of Danehill and certainly the hottest son of Galileo. With two other potentially useful Galileo sons standing at Darley. The cupboard is starting to look mightily bare in Fethard. Lets hope their Aussie hulk proves as effective over here, personally I think he will. How quickly do we envisage a son of FR to appear standing Northern Hem?

You do know better Prima.

I just like to point out that So You Think is a 126 rated racehorse and certainly a sight to behold.
He has had a pretty full and successful career up here for a Southern Hemisphere horse, in fact leaving out their sprinters it's hard to remember an Aussie any where near as effective.

HOWEVER, wouldn't touch him with a barge pole at stud and I don't think they'll stand him up here.

Coolmore don't unearth a Galileo/Danehill/Sadlers/Montjeu every 5 minutes it's just that sometimes it seems like it compared to what their competitors manage. With Montjeu out of the way if Galileo continues, then he will become so dominant they'll be charging a fee of the current combined pair anyway! I suppose any 'top' stallion only actually has to dominate the current competition and that will always be fluctuating in quality. Coolmore hype always had Caerleon as a lynchpin at the top of the market, history shows he was nothing like a supersire.

Fastnet Rock is no doubt most exciting but just because Ballydoyle doesn't look hot on 3yo's this year doesn't mean it's all over! In fact the above 4 horses were all 'aquired' in different ways and at different times of their career - Demi will be keeping a close eye on Attheraces from Ripon I am sure and Shanahan is always at Southwell. . .

Is it not also interesting that Dansili (16yo) is as you say Prima arguably the best Danehill right now, when as a racehorse he would certainly got a mile and a quarter in my opinion and is from a very stout line. Just the thing we always crab in our potential Danehill sires!

Is it not also interesting that Dansili (16yo) is as you say Prima arguably the best Danehill right now, when as a racehorse he would certainly got a mile and a quarter in my opinion and is from a very stout line. Just the thing we always crab in our potential Danehill sires!

Make's Fastnet Rock and his seeming affinity with stout mares even more interesting when it comes to using a son of his in the future!

Coolmore don't unearth a Galileo/Danehill/Sadlers/Montjeu every 5 minutes it's just that sometimes it seems like it compared to what their competitors manage. With Montjeu out of the way if Galileo continues, then he will become so dominant they'll be charging a fee of the current combined pair anyway!

This could be true but isn't this a bit like eggs in one basket?

I think Coolmore have the clout to try something different. I don't imagine Canford Cliffs is struggling for mares this season and it really would have taken a very large imagination to see them standing a Taufan horse a couple of years ago! I appreciate he was the commercial beau ideal when it comes to race performance but if we met somewhere in the middle vis a vis screwball pedigree/brilliant racehorse then that would surely be a place to start.

I liked Daddy Long Legs in Dubai. Sure he ran like a dirt horse but he's tough and talented and I'm not sure that the Johannesburg and now Scat Daddy isn't worthy of further European investigation. Also that Speightstown 2yo from last year looked quite nice but ofcourse if the 2 of them are conformed like dirt horses then that would put a bit of a damper on it.

Understandably they only concentrate on the real cream at Ballydoyle but I think if a few of the 115 - 120 horses weren't sacrificed at the altar as pacemakers and developed to maximise their appeal then that might lead to a bit more variety. I know it is tempting for them to say 'so and so' must win a Group 1 at a grade 1 track before we take him seriously, but chasing unsuccessfully that that is just out of reach sure does tarnish a lot of prospects perhaps.

Yes I suppose they do have the clout to stand a non mainstream sire,Canford being a prime example.I myself see him as a 'commercial' stallion and wonder if he is a long term prospect,what do you think? Excelebration is a step in the right direction.
Daddy Long Legs does look tough or at least on Saturday did but that meeting can and does put up some funny results,Saturday being no exception.But he has some talent this summer should tell us more.Personally I really don't like his name.Whoever named him that wants shooting

Yes Daddy Long Legs is a dire name! Dubai definitely has a quality problem doesn't it. We should be very very grateful that prestige keeps so many fabulous horses on our shores and Dubai deserves better support. I think Ballydoyle will be there for a while though given the money they are taking home!

If I have learned one thing from you on here Prima - and ofcourse I haven't - it is the danger of a mid to high price sire. I do think though that you perhaps stand a better chance with them in year 1 as there is always that bit more depth in the market for their offspring.
I wouldn't therefore be negative about those who are using Canford Cliffs because of this and if I had a broodmare band of sufficient size and quality then I would perhaps have had a go.

There will be a lot around at those 1st sales.

I have only one mare remotely near that class and I wouldn't have risked her on a horse that has a ton of pedigree questionmarks. Instead I have used a sire that would have no pedigree question marks even though he wouldn't be obviously commercial. I think that with the not so obvious, you are slightly compensated with fewer on the ground at Park Paddocks which has sometimes served me well.

I really don't see Canford being a long term prospect. However he has the looks of a horse with a pedigree so who knows. He also has the profile of a horse that would knit well with Danzig so that could swing it. But I'll be surprised.

Pot M, There will be money made with Canford Cliffs no doubt about it,and as you point out breeders with a sizeable broodmare band would use such a stallion,for all we know he just might make it.
Stallions like him who get a good amount of mares first season can be worth the risk 3rd season sires like Bushranger or the other Tally-Ho sire Zebedee as if nothing else they should have plenty of runners it can pay very well when it comes to selling the little darlings at the years sales.But its true you can hit the jackpot if your slightly cooler stallion comes good that way anyone with stock should hopefully get their door knocked down with the rush to get their hands on the said yearling........it does often happen remember a few years ago Invincible Spirit had made such a fantastic start with his 1st crop runners,at the time he wasn't everyone's idea of mega sire but those with yearlings to sell made a mint that year.Good luck with yours I hope it does well,you never know you might get another 200k sale
I think atm they Coolmore are a bit spoiled for choice what with him Rip Van Winkle and next year Excelabration all pretty much in the same price range.......that can be dangerous 1st time!

Not sure about Daddy Long Legs confirmation lads, but he looked a beautiful mover on the turf in his maiden win at Gowran and in the Royal Lodge. Scat Daddy seems to be going well so he might be a prospect. Agree about the name, atrocious choice for a potential stallion. I wouldn't call a 3 mile hurdler that.

Gosh. I am sure Excelebration is hoped to end up as a 17-20 k stallion but he's not there yet. Light pedigree low foal/yearling price, he's got to bag a bit more race record to make up for no 2yo stakes form and a single soft ground Gp1.

I seem to remeber hitting a sire on fire quite recently Prima. It's always nice but not always productive . Give me a beauty, ill bred, over a trendy plod any day.

Happy to combine the two mind !

I bet you are Pot MAnd that's a good point about Excelabration....I had forgotten about his sale prices so yes he does need a bit more..reckon he will mind.And like you I too will take the ill bred beauty any day of the week!we all get bad sales from time to time I've said before about that 100k mare who lost an effing fortune after dumping absolute dregs on us year in year out..........still there's always next year!It keeps us all going!

neil d,I've recently seen Daddy On The Legs and he's not for me,he's never really done it for me.Is he that good?

I haven't forgotten that story and nor am I likely to Prima.

However it's not exactly helping with my efforts to plunge into a new broodmare where I seem to completely have lost any trace of b@lls for the job!

Do you always steer clear of 'secondhand' broodmares as a point of principal or do you still have a pop at them every now and then? It requires such a leap of faith to buy a castoff because which vendor wants to sell a nice mare?

Having said that when you buy a nice yearling filly (you not me sadly) train it for 2 years you're not much behind 100k are you.

Am I talking myself into a filly out of training only? -  I'm not sure I'm a great judge of those either!

I too think that Daddy and they are Long are they? Legs is unlikely to be a real tip topper.
But he is a case in point. We are happy to use a 115-120 horse on here if he fits a commercial profile so why not develop his type in the company they are competitive in and finish with a horse with a winning habit and a great profile. Not as a pacemaker and not as a horse that went to the Gp1 well time and time again only to disappoint.

I might open up a new window on mares while I'm on a roll. . .

Despite his pedigree, I don't think he is a dirt horse at all and if you eliminate that effort at the Breeders Cup, he has a nice enough profile. The other time where he was a little disappointing was at Doncaster, but I think that is a bit of a funny course these times. I  could see him running in the first 5 or 6 in the Guineas if given the chance. Plenty of nice pattern races midweek in Ireland during the summer as well plus the European jaunts he could go on. I think he'll end up standing somewhere alright.

I saw yesterday that poor old Twice over is being kept in training at 7, there were a few offers to stand him apparently (article didn't say where) not in the least bit commercial I know, but I'd have thought with his race record he'd have found somewhere

He's going to be a GR2 winner and most likely GR1 placed this year and could see him going to a place like Tally-Ho,still don't really like him.
What more does poor old Twice Over need to do?Surely as he's very tough and has run for so long a small NH stud would want him........I'm sure he would do that job alright.

I note So You Think's full brother has been diagnosed a Wobbler just prior to his date at the yearling sales this week.

Mmm.

Looking at great big SYT - well it always does seem to happen to that type doesn't it.

Musir to Stand at Coolmore.

Another good signing.

doubt he'll shuttle

I read the forum very regularly and find it all very interesting. One thing I haven't read mentioned though and wondered if it had any bearing in anybodys decisions is if a stallion that was the result of breeding similar physical types would be more attractive to you than one who was the result of unsimilar types? Or absolutely no bearing on thinking at all?

I suppose my laymans thinking is that you might be more confident of the type the stallion is going to throw.

I guess the same applies with mares.

Not sure many of us get to 'see' a stallions dam other than in racing or distance aptitude. I'm sure if his sire was good and he is a chip off the old block that could increase confidence.

As regards mares, some of us become obsessed by 'correcting' what we have to dare to breed to type. However I would love to get a fix on how disappointed the market is if we send a small mare to a large stallion only to get a smaller than average offspring, than if we'd concentrated on the mares positives in the first place.

I think Ruffian234 that I would be happiest using a stallion that seems to correctly represent the pedigree he starts off with. I think that like with like definitely gives you a good chance of capitalising on what cards you are dealt.

I rather suspect that we appear to have lost prepotency in our sprinters because it historically has not been the most important sector of the game in Europe and therefore has not necessarily been the aimed for result of with  the mating of our sprint mares or stallions.

However Galileo represents a slightly hybrid mating and has plenty of Miswaki about him but in the best possible way. Montjeu on the other hand is very typical of his pedigree of two aptitudinal similars and ofcourse he is Mr reliable to repeat the dose.
Oasis Dream, Pivotal and Dansili are products of different types of parent so as you can't predict who gets what in the genetic shake up, who the hell knows!

proxygene, the market will mark you down for your smaller than average product however you arrive at it. Unless ofcourse they are expecting it to be small, by Inchinor for instance. If you got an all typical Inchinor but a bit bigger they would reward you too. But whether they should've. . .?

The market is mighty easy to disappoint and it's best to try and give them what they expect from a mating - and the best possible version of it too!

This thread is seriously getting my back up...

So You Think was running regularly at the top level from the Spring of his 3YO career. These horses are not machines and can't campaign at the top level forever. He was on the go for over 12 months last year and he's lost his edge. Between 18th Sep10 and 5th Nov11 he ran 13 times. 13 runs in 13 and a half months. An astonishing testament to this horse's durability. 12 Group 1s by the way.

I suspect he will head back to Aus before too long to take a well-deserved place on the Coolmore roster for the SH breeding season. He might even start his career in New Zealand given the pedigree and the previous High Chap success there.

21 runs in 34 months. 11 Graded wins.

Prima - to call this horse Slow You Think. Hang your head in shame !!

No Black Sam,I don't need to hang my head in shame at my comments.The fact is like it or not So You Think is just not as good as we were all told,if anyone needs to hang their head in shame I think its his connections PR department.Yes he's tough but perhaps not as tough or as good as he needed to be to convince us breeders up here.He lacks any turn of foot at the end of his races,'the worlds best 10f horse'I don't think so.If he really was that good then why was he beaten so many times up here and by runners that perhaps aren't regarded as outstanding!

One other thing I'd like to ask you did you see what Tony Morris said about Montjeu last Friday with regards to his connections initial expectations as a stallion?As if you did you would of noticed that they mirrored my views.....views that I remember you were so strongly in disagreement ridiculing my points along with others like yer ma,The Gotchee,even Rip Van Winkle.I said at the time none of you could see beyond what he went on to achieve.I noted none of you had such strong opinions this time,your silence on the subject said it all!I'll hold my view with So You think...I've seen nothing to change my opinion of him.

Prima - please remind me what Morris' comments on Montjeu were ?

Black Sam,The article was in last Friday's Post,page 4.he goes on to say.

"Montjue was a racehorse of exceptional distinction,winning 11 of his 16 races over three seasons in training with John Hammond.His six GR1 scores included the Chantilly and Curragh Derbys and the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe at three,and the Tatt's Gold Cup.Grand Prix de saint cloud and King George VI&Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Four.that record confirmed his outstanding ability over middle distances,allying a formidable turn of foot with ample staying qualities,but he was NOT everyone's idea of a prospective top-class sire when he retired to Coolmore in 2001.Up to that point NO son of Sadlers Wells had excelled to quite the same degree as his sire,and his stamina-laden pedigree led many to believe that he would get plodders".

You may remember me saying just this a couple of years ago when once before this forum was discussing the merits of Montjeu v Galileo....I also went on to say the view held by his connections of him long term was of a high class Jump stallion.The level of his successful first crop blew their initial expectations out of the water,and has continued to do so.Some of us perhaps truly understand the industry and can see what was really expected of Montjeu. Hard for some to accept it seems,some can't think back before his fantastic results,those few were shouting the loudest at my comments perhaps now they all feel I wasn't talking rubbish and my comments are valid!

Where does that article talk about connections' expectations Prima ? Tony Morris suggested Montjeu would end up a NH stallion in one of his earlier articles I believe...perhaps because of the Top Ville influences, but probably because of his anti-Coolmore prejudices. He never misses the chance to take a pot-shot does he ?

Perhaps because of the Top Ville influence, perhaps because of an 'anti-Coolmore' stance or PERHAPS because it's TRUE! Take a comparison of one of Montjeu's contemporary's who retired at the same time, Dubai Millenium. Withour getting into an argument over the ability on the course, lets agree they were of similar standing on racecourse performance and just contrast their starting stud fees. DM 100,000 Montjeu 30,000. Who's connections were expecting great things of their sire?

The closer comparison was Montjeu v Giants Causeway. Same year, same stud, same fee disparity!

One is a patchy inconsistent sire the other as solid a sire as I'll ever see.

I don't see Morris as anti Coolmore. I just see him as anti many of their practices and left with the mantle of being the only one to speak out! He is a big admirer of Magnier for his foresight and tactical nouse.

Did you all see that fantastic performance today from Slow You think?Now that truly did look like a real good GR1 race.......such a high class field!Still he gets yet another superb GR1 win on his see through CV.Of course there was another GR1 race today the Prix D'Ispahan over a slightly shorter trip and it was only slightly shorter but a wins what's needed now and with the French race he would come up against better horses and somehow I doubt he'd of won.call me cynicle but its a view I think connections share also!

He looked a million bucks today I thought. O'Brien is right in saying he has amazing presence.

I don't know much about SYT's 'official' plans but my unofficial opinion has him finished now. 6l winner of his final start will do nicely for the publicity behomoth at Coolmore NSW and I suspect - call me Mrs Prima-Cynic if you like! - they'll not mention the average 105 rating of his opponents.

Surely Prima you could have found a 90 rated filly somewhere to steal a 3rd place Gp1 bracket? I think you might need to give Slick'n'Smooth a lecture on opportunism opportunities!