Slow You Think

Do you think he'll dual-shuttle Prima? If so, what would be his northern hemisphere fee and what difference would winning Dubai World Cup make? I'd go something like €15,000 perhaps €20,000 if he won in Dubai.

I always thought this was the likely scenario for this horse and I'm hoping that I said as much on here at some point!
They missed a potentially mega lucrative southern hemisphere with Starspangledbanner by keeping him here after the July Cup which I thought was crazy. He was the worlds best sprinter, had his reputation enhanced for the Aus market by taking on and beating 'up north' and was at his absolute zenith and then it all fizzled out. I thought that was a sporting decision at the time which I applauded because I sure as hell couldn't see how it was safe commercially.
I think So You Stink has had his reputation enhanced for the down under breeders because they can crack on with 'won everything in Aus so he went Northern Hemisphere and beat them on their turf bagging 3 gp1s along the way' spiel.
He is a hopeless bet to improve his lot this year, status quo is the most he could hope for and I'm sure the Starspangled decision ought to still grate.
Will he come back? I think that will entirely depend on what 2012 throws up as a potential sire for 2013. It's hard to believe that Ballydoyle and the like won't throw up a number of prospects that I find more attractive that's for sure.

Don't get me started truehoncho,this is a very sensitive subject for some on here.Some of the people who once commented on what I said ages ago couldn't imo see beyond the end of their noses.
Galileo,has from the start always had a decent book of mares,connections gave him every help from the off.
Montjeu,Given a chance with some good mares but most were the B list mares,with such a stamina packed pedigree and AT THE TIME sons of SW were not doing what was hoped for. The fact is connections had his future down as a high class NH sire.........Motivator changed their opinion and as a result he has gone on to really be better than Galileo when you look at the results they both have considering numbers and quality of their mares.
High Chaparral,has never been given the chances of the other two and as we often say on here a massive help stallions get is the quality of their books High Chap's has been the C list,he is in a way just another Derby winning son of SW and how many do they need?

Did seem like HC had turned a corner, some interest last year and a price hike, but seems to have collapsed this year. Galileo over Montjeu for me, but not beyond the other supersires.

You haven't hit a nerve truehoncho I was meaning a year or two ago I expressed my opinion on the merits of Galileo v Montjeu as sires.At the time former posters were completely blinded by both stallions success, completely missing my point finding it impossible to understand their perceived merits and expectations.
As for using either Motivator or Dylan Thomas as NH sires personally I'd go for DT as he's had more mares.

If you look back over past threads Truehoncho you can probably find the original Galileo V Montjeu debate.

Without going over old ground I would just say this; When Montjeu went to stud he was seen as an out and out 12f horse (despite his Gr1 win over 10f, something Galileo cannot boast... ) with a staying family, who was the highest-rated son of a sensational sire, but a sire that had a poor record as a sire of successful stallions. He had to be given a chance, but long-term the view was that he was going the way of many other S W's sons. Jumping. He blew the expectations out of the water.

Galileo on the other hand, well he was a good looking son of an Arc winner. Another by the legendary Sadlers Wells, who was getting older and a replacement was yet to be uncovered......Galileo was hyped as a racehorse, usually a sign of the 'Next Big Thing' as far as Coolmore stallions go. Physically Galileo looked right. He hinted at the chance of getting 2yo's. His family, although German, had plenty going on and good horses at all distances were cropping up.

Coolmore needed a S W replacement, they needed to look for the next generation for a future without SW and Danehill. Danehill Dancer had potential for the latter, but the former need help.

Galileo got that help. Even then though in his third season Galileo was covering jump mares belonging to Coolmore associates. (Inc Lady Cricket, the result of which won yesterday) Montjeu was expected to fail, but despite that exceeded the wildest hopes and churns out Derby horses at a fantastic rate. Galileo was earmarked to succeed. He was helped in every way. The level of his success and the speed of his dominance is unexpected. The fact he succeeded is not.
And then comes High Chap. Another Derby winner, another good racehorse by SW. What do they do with him? He might be another great like M and G. He might be another In the Wings or Old Vic. He def cana't have the complete A list as they are allocated to Galileo, The B list are booked to Montjeu, so some are moved and some are shuffled, but on the whole Coolmore don't really *need* H C so he has to take his chances on the wider market. He has done well. Not brilliant, but OK. He is not wildly commercial but I wouldn't not buy a mare just because she was in-foal to him. HE may be ok as a BM sire. Would I rush to pay 15-20k to use a son of his? No.

SYT will be held back by his Aus/NZ ancestry, his perceived disappointments in his Northern Hemisphere season, and not least by his sire.If he was by Galileo it would be a different story entirely.......

In The Wings and Old Vic? Surely not in the same breath Slick'N'Smooth. I know that In The Wings didn't bring much to the 2yo scene and couldn't be considered commercially reliable but he was a good sire by all measures but 2yo stats.

I wouldn't be fighting to use a big, backward, wind infirm son of Galileo either although I appreciate it might tip the balance for some.

A very interesting post as ever, I'll let the rest go though as I like to save my best nit picking for Prima Donna

Like the last Montjeu / Galileo discussion - history is what each person decides it to be.  In my humble opinion (clearly not as worthy as others) the idea that Galileo is only superior to Montjeu because Coolmore designed it to be so thru their broodmare allocation is poppy kok. If thats a valid argument can the proponents tell us which current sire is getting the same 'help' and is being 'made' to succeed?  Or more importantly the ones 'expected' to fail.  This inside info would be terribly helpful, thanks in advance.

Yer Ma,Everyone's opinion is valid, but I think if you re-read my original post you will see that I say that Galileo looks more a physical type to succeed commercially as he looks as though he would get 2yo sales sorts. He also has a strong family that is throwing up good horses year after year. I am a big believer in family when it comes to a sire's success. If all of those attributes are clear to Coolmore and to breeders like myself, the surely others would see the same and send good mares?

With Montjeu it is nearly the opposite situation. He is not a great looking horse that really fills your eye, he doesn't look as though he will get sales types. His family is old and his dam was a stayer by a stayer. He did possess an electric turn of foot however and there are plenty of breeders that mark this as the sign of a potentially good sire.

As I said in my first post Montjeu's level of success was a surprise, Galileo's level of success was also a surprise (though a very pleasant one I am sure) just because he showed every potential and was given every help there are no guarantees until the racecourse results. I remember well the niggling doubts after his first crop ran at 2yo, with no stakes horse until the Washington Singer.

As for future sires, maybe Fastnet Rock is worth a look...?

We'll never stop debating What makes a good sire, who makes a good sire and what constitutes a good horse will we.

The value of form, of family and of venue are all endlessly arguable too. Good job we don't all agree as three stallions and AI would be the only option!

Obviously Coolmore are the canniest operators there are, full stop. I though have to take on board what yer ma says in that they cannot make a silk purse out of a sows' ear and history is littered with their failed attempts (their big foray into Nureyev and way before that, Forli). Perhaps the best way of looking at it is that if the stallion has what it takes they would be as quick as any in producing the results.

I am coming round to Fastnet Rock, and certainly they are! I would be running scared though at the sort of fee that is being bandied about (I don't know the reality). People are buying into it though but given the disparity of results gained in the two hemispheres by most shuttling stallions I don't think he is a great shot at being the next big thing up here too. I Can see why I might be wrong but I'd like to not spend too much while I waited to find out.

Incidentally. 6 of the 12 Fastnet Rock first foals were withdrawn from the 2012 breeding stock sales and the remaining 6  included 2 definitely unsold. No mega money for what was left - a slightly indifferent start to world domination!

I think we are all prone to that occasionally Prima - yes even . . .

Main thing is we keep it to a minimum

Yer Ma, I think we agree but are coming at it from different angles.I am not saying that Coolmore expected G to succeed just because they choose his mares carefully, if that was the case everything would be a success. I am talking about the relative expectations of M versus G and the mare quality that came form those expectations. The Tweenhills example is a good one, Redvers is buying up every top class mare to try and 'make' Makfi, or at least give him a hand up the ladder, but he didn't do the same for Sleeping Indian. Because the 'expectation' of high-level success as a sire wasn't there. In the Coolmore scenario Galileo is the helped along Makfi who has both pedigree and physique to compliment racecourse performance, whereas Montjeu would be Sleeping Indian, helped enough to remain commercial for as long as poss but not really expected to have much influence long term. The reason it all comes back to mare quality is when trying to appraise the relative merits of both M and G. There is no dispute that G has achieved better results  than M and his progeny have won a much more diverse range of races, but it is the distance travelled form the usual standard a mare would usually get that shows who can claim to be 'better'. Basically who upgrades his mares more? With Galileo's mares being so good to start with he in effect has to 'do' less to them than Montjeu does with his. Montjeu's drawback is that seemingly he mostly does Derby type colts, but I don't think that is the total limit of his ability and over time as the runners that resulted from Coolmore supporting him more we may see more strings to Montjeu's bow. Maybe he could do great things with Galileo's book,could we be certain of the same results from G if starting from M's level?

I think mare for mare Galileo does upgrade more than Montjeu, albeit from an already higher level. He also does it with more consistency but how much of that comes down to mental stability vs Montjeu?

great debate about the merits of Galileo v Montjue, i have to say my opinion is that Galileo was given an easier task with the books he got. i understand that the types G gets v the types M gets, (G gets relative early 2year olds, M gets autumn 2yr from 7f to 1m2f), but for me i really cant understand how Sir M Stoute doesnt get sent 40 Montjues a year as they are the exact type he trains, (late summer type who progress intop a derby type).
another thought would be why Giants Causeway doesnt get the support Galileo enjoys, for years the boys in Coolmore sought a great son of Storm Cat, to have their next superstar, they got him and got classic winners form him (footsteps and Sham) yet now he is stateside we dont see very many here abiet i know he gets quality US books but he hasnt really blown up over there, and if AOB had a few more a year i can see them having a better sire than footstepinthesand,
the same may stand for HTN in a few years time, they supported Kingmambo for yeasr trying to get a quality stallion and now they have one and i hope he gets the right support even tho i understasnd AOB has 12 colts this year.
the who upgrade who better debate is very open to opinion, it really depend on what type you value more, an early 2year old who looks good and sells well, or a horse that needs the time to develop and maybe even a 4thyear until he gets his best.

i am so much against Camelot if he tackles the 2000G! i do agree that henry should be here atleast for his 1st year, but there should be soemway of accomidating breeders willing to send a mare stateside, be it a big reduction or else freeboarding or a deal with the flying the mare over or a combo of all 3!
I would love to see a good few GC over here, i mean if he covers a book of 130, 30 over here would make him more competive and ,aybe we could get another son of his at stud here

PD yes, i dont think Montjeu will get a Guineas winner, yes its from SNA (at which time i laid him but had him for the derby thinking it was a good place to start the year). my main reason for thinking camelot wont win the guineas is that i dont like a horse will over a mile as a 2year old abnd then trying to win over amile again in the highest level (frankel and STS put me wrong there but both had had tackled 7f races and were by speedier sires)
Yes SNA may have been over trained but i dont thinkj even if AOB could turn back time SNA will wouldnt win it!! he can turn up at HQ and you know if he runs even 5th i think it would be fine for him despite the fact that my antipost pick reads Akeed Mofeed and parish hall

i would just like to clarify that im in the Montjeu camp

i dohope he will get a triple crown winner, but i think that elusive colt will need to be a type who won  a group contest over a sharp 7f as a 2year old, Camelot has only raced over a mile thus far and i really feel that anythng under 10f will be on the shapre side for him as horses grown their stamina increases and horses who were G1 in the 6f a nd 7f divisions are the big contenderrs for the mile classic.
As a BM sire watch this space i think, Parish Hall could be the 1st of many. i hope it is a big year for him and would love if he really stuck it to Galileo in the sires list! His filly Wading has me very very excited (winniong over 7f in nemarket i could see her winning th 1000G with  a very strong gallop!),
I do hope your mares are having fine healthy offspring and that the mild winter has given them an extra advantage selling as yearling (maybe that only applies to the irish breeders tho!!)

guys my view fwiw I was at doncaster camelot is the most unlike montjeu i have seen! he was cool as a cucumber and no sign of a high head (typical of the sire) the speed he showed he would win over 6f and he will be a very diff prop to sna if he turns up on gns day

I think that Historys' best broodmare sires have been big, and from lines with a lot of temperament. I suppose that Sadlers is putting lie to that to some extent, but he has the help of all the best pedigrees of the last 30 years within his daughters. I would have every faith in Montjeu as a broodmare sire as his temperament is probably all about Top Ville and Cranky old High Top who were both good examples of damsires who exceeded their ability as sires of runners.

Mind you as you and I are in at the sharp end yer ma, perhaps not the best fun to have around I grant you!

My best mare covered yesterday so I'm a little bit chipper today!