Bloodstock & Breeding
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Looks potentially like a good bargain basement sire. Only 3 runners so far in his first crop, 2 winners of 3 races and 4 places from a total of 11 runs. One a G3 winner and the another G3 placed. Only EUR 1000. 
Show More
5 runners and 18 runs actually but cant argue with great start. Mind u the owner breeder frenchies happy to send good mares to cheap stallions.
Didn't realise he had 5 runners. I was using the racing post for his stats. Where do you get the up to date stats? There is nothing wrong with sending a good mare to a cheap stallion. Too many breeders are consumed with the commercial prowess of the stallion rather thabible ability to produce a good racehorse. Unfortunately they are taken in by expensive glossy brochures , equivocation and exaggeration. 
*thabible = than his
^ text prompt problem, I am not drunk although my opinions can sometimes be mistaken for somebody in that state of mind.
^ text prompt problem, I am not drunk although my opinions can sometimes be mistaken for somebody in that state of mind.
France Galop. Agree re. cheap stallions but even more taken in by what you mention are the agents / yearling buyers so vicious circle for anyone breeding to sell.
Agree with both points raised here.If breeders have the 'balls' to send a goodish mare to a cheap and well bred stallion it can pay off very well,personally I always try to get other breeders to see the merits of using cheaper sires they can and do often lead to both sale ring success along with racetrack winners.
With these sorts they don't really have to make huge sums before you are into profit,a comforting feeling perhaps in these financially difficult times.
With these sorts they don't really have to make huge sums before you are into profit,a comforting feeling perhaps in these financially difficult times.
It's such a difficult one to judge isn't it.
How much more likely are you to get 20k for an animal conceived off 5k than
35k for an animal conceived off 15k
Your production cost risks are a lot more in proportion to your cheaper stud fee but balancing the quality of the mare and whether you drop her down or lift her up. . .
Then ofcourse you get the 15 grander on song and the chance of hitting a business changing sum are much greater. But not on song . . .
It's certainly something I give way more thought to since listening to some on here [;)]
Incidentally. Did we all have a good chuckle at The Racing Post's Fairyhouse Yearling supplement yesterday? Yes that's it, the one with the foal on the front cover
How much more likely are you to get 20k for an animal conceived off 5k than
35k for an animal conceived off 15k
Your production cost risks are a lot more in proportion to your cheaper stud fee but balancing the quality of the mare and whether you drop her down or lift her up. . .
Then ofcourse you get the 15 grander on song and the chance of hitting a business changing sum are much greater. But not on song . . .
It's certainly something I give way more thought to since listening to some on here [;)]
Incidentally. Did we all have a good chuckle at The Racing Post's Fairyhouse Yearling supplement yesterday? Yes that's it, the one with the foal on the front cover
Lifting mares up?I'm not so sure that's possible really, commercially anyway,as when it comes down to it the said foal/yearling will ALWAYS need to be a great looking sort to stand a real chance of making money,as the cold fact is your mare will be in the bottom end of the said sires book,your mares stock will be competing with better bred mares,like I always say to get the best chance of your best return you need to be in the top 10% of a stallions book. Even if that means dropping down a fee level. If breeders REALLY understand this this is where they can make good returns from cheaper sires. Instead of that feeling that you have something by a hot sire and you are going to make life-changing amounts, then coming out of the ring wondering where it all went wrong.
I think that the creme de la creme sires need a strong mare whatever. Mind you RipvanWinkle and Cape Blanco are recent examples of acceptable sales results and subsequently somewhat enhanced mares from an 'over' cover!
At a lower level, there is way too much ambiguity in the interpretation of a catalogue page to cast a mare's 'bracket' in stone. We all have families we like and families we wouldn't touch and that's not truely quantifiable. Perhaps an agent may be hot on so and so as a broodmare sire say; and a trainer will often major on a particular family, enhancing it's 'value' up to where others wouldn't go.
Top 10% on confirmation is where I look to be, that's where the money lies. Then provided your stallion isn't on a downward curve the money made will be dictated by the top of his market. Fun and profitable at the lower level but only truely lucrative if you are top 3 perhaps. And in my opinion there is much too much confirmationally to go wrong with any foal to be expecting top 3 at any level.
On the rare occaision I've hit pay day, the lower level covers have brought me a great profit ratios but the better covers have put more food on the table!
At a lower level, there is way too much ambiguity in the interpretation of a catalogue page to cast a mare's 'bracket' in stone. We all have families we like and families we wouldn't touch and that's not truely quantifiable. Perhaps an agent may be hot on so and so as a broodmare sire say; and a trainer will often major on a particular family, enhancing it's 'value' up to where others wouldn't go.
Top 10% on confirmation is where I look to be, that's where the money lies. Then provided your stallion isn't on a downward curve the money made will be dictated by the top of his market. Fun and profitable at the lower level but only truely lucrative if you are top 3 perhaps. And in my opinion there is much too much confirmationally to go wrong with any foal to be expecting top 3 at any level.
On the rare occaision I've hit pay day, the lower level covers have brought me a great profit ratios but the better covers have put more food on the table!
Bullocks.
Will I never learn . CONFORMATION !
Will I never learn . CONFORMATION !
Tell me about it! It was the ancient ringing sound of your typing that finally penetrated the blubber
Rip Van Winkle and Cape Blanco are examples of just how a 'good expensive' stallion can upgrade the mare but unless you live on another planet Galileo could never be described as a cheap sire and that's what we are talking about here.To offer another example of a cheap sire doing the business both in the sale ring and on the racetrack take a look at Canford Cliffs or Dick Turpin,both by cheap stallions and both being very good looking sorts their sales prices reflect this.
The way I see it is so long as the stallion is a precocious stakes winner and very good looking by a good early fashionable producing stallion then I see no reason why with the right mare you can't make money and often good money,but I know it does take a bit of faith to sign the nomination form.I always have in the back of my mind when thinking of doing this is that if the mares good enough she will carry the stallion if needed.Pot M remind me of your profit margin with those foals you had last Dec' sales both of them and remember one was by a commercial stallion who plenty seem to like,I personally didn't see them but I shouldn't tell you but my guy did take a look[;)]and with you hiding right down in the corner of the highflyer too!
The way I see it is so long as the stallion is a precocious stakes winner and very good looking by a good early fashionable producing stallion then I see no reason why with the right mare you can't make money and often good money,but I know it does take a bit of faith to sign the nomination form.I always have in the back of my mind when thinking of doing this is that if the mares good enough she will carry the stallion if needed.Pot M remind me of your profit margin with those foals you had last Dec' sales both of them and remember one was by a commercial stallion who plenty seem to like,I personally didn't see them but I shouldn't tell you but my guy did take a look[;)]and with you hiding right down in the corner of the highflyer too!
Apols to all. It was a bit silly to veer of track into expensive sire territory when discussing the pros and cons of 'under' covering better mares.
I imagine the French premium system gives added incentive to keep better mares in weaker company as top French Stallions are a bit thin on the ground so if you've a better mare and keen to not turn your back on the premiums then perhaps that happens as the premiums strengthen your appeal anyway.
I think a mare 'carrying' an out of favour stallion would require a hell of a downgrade! I think you've got mares that would carry Araafa, Prima but mine . . .
As for your Private Investigator Prima!
Don't they bear out my theories? One mare 'topped' the previous year with a stallion in the same league but this year had an ordinary filly.
Another one couldn't buck the sire and produced a non walking not correct horse. Still topped mind !!!
I imagine the French premium system gives added incentive to keep better mares in weaker company as top French Stallions are a bit thin on the ground so if you've a better mare and keen to not turn your back on the premiums then perhaps that happens as the premiums strengthen your appeal anyway.
I think a mare 'carrying' an out of favour stallion would require a hell of a downgrade! I think you've got mares that would carry Araafa, Prima but mine . . .
As for your Private Investigator Prima!
Don't they bear out my theories? One mare 'topped' the previous year with a stallion in the same league but this year had an ordinary filly.
Another one couldn't buck the sire and produced a non walking not correct horse. Still topped mind !!!
Pot M,When I say the mare carrying the stallion I don't mean carrying some old dreg who has clearly not made it by any stretch of imagination,I'm talking about a new or 2nd season sire one who fits the criteria I'm on about above ie by a good precocious proven stallion one who has won stakes races who may have been injured,or a stallions just like Tagula and Monsieur Bond consistent with getting winners one who looks very capable of getting a good horse if he gets a good mare from a good producing family.
As you know with me I am always wanting 2 y'old types to sell and with a bit of nouse selecting a young stallion like the sort I mention above you can get a very good return and very often a much better one than some of the 'better' choices people seem so keen to use.One other thing to have in your mind if you do use a stallion like these you will get a fantastic deal much much better than you poss' could imagine when you put up a mare who most would assume would be too good for that type of sire.
As you know with me I am always wanting 2 y'old types to sell and with a bit of nouse selecting a young stallion like the sort I mention above you can get a very good return and very often a much better one than some of the 'better' choices people seem so keen to use.One other thing to have in your mind if you do use a stallion like these you will get a fantastic deal much much better than you poss' could imagine when you put up a mare who most would assume would be too good for that type of sire.
some old dreg who has clearly not made it by any stretch of imagination
Prima, you've got to cut me some slack here - I'm trying not to let it happen again, honest
I agree with much you say ofcourse - but it's necessary to keep sparring is it not? otherwise what would we ever learn
Remember though, these great deals are not quite as great to me, I suspect, as they are to you!
It's just so difficult to know if Mrs Marsh would have got more for her Tagula if it had been a Royal Applause for instance. Could a few more k on the stud fee have got the breeder a 100k 'Canford Cliffs' ?
We'll never know, but I sure as hell know that with the right break, latching on to the 1st season talking horse, it can almost be an irrelavance at what fee he stood. Or what your mare is sometimes!
Prima, you've got to cut me some slack here - I'm trying not to let it happen again, honest
I agree with much you say ofcourse - but it's necessary to keep sparring is it not? otherwise what would we ever learn
Remember though, these great deals are not quite as great to me, I suspect, as they are to you!
It's just so difficult to know if Mrs Marsh would have got more for her Tagula if it had been a Royal Applause for instance. Could a few more k on the stud fee have got the breeder a 100k 'Canford Cliffs' ?
We'll never know, but I sure as hell know that with the right break, latching on to the 1st season talking horse, it can almost be an irrelavance at what fee he stood. Or what your mare is sometimes!
Just as an example of the sort we are talking about remember Bushranger?By a cheap stallion Danetime out of a modest mare but still despite the cheap sire and the moderate mare sold for £100k and went on to win 2 GR1s as a juvenile.Would he of made so much more if he was by a 10/15k stallion?
Blimey, just a quick look back at Danetimes figures for that year. 10 yearlings made more than Bushranger that season!
Who knows what a different sire would have brought to the mix. Every chance nothing atall but a great looking colt by a red hot 15 grander? Not worth the guessing really.
What I am sure of Prima is that I want to be in on the next Danetime-esque sensation, and I'm charging you with finding it for me!
Get working. [:p]
( Don't say M.B., he's on the shortlist! Do you think they'll double the fee next season? )
Who knows what a different sire would have brought to the mix. Every chance nothing atall but a great looking colt by a red hot 15 grander? Not worth the guessing really.
What I am sure of Prima is that I want to be in on the next Danetime-esque sensation, and I'm charging you with finding it for me!
Get working. [:p]
( Don't say M.B., he's on the shortlist! Do you think they'll double the fee next season? )
Personally I doubt Bushranger would of made any more at Doncaster if he was by a 'red hot' 15k sire,but from what I can see on here I also doubt Pot M is convinced of the merits of a cheaper stallion,he imo falls into the trap of 'well if I spend a bit more I surely will get a bit more back' brigade but that's his view and he's fully entitled to it,after all its his cash to gamble with...........or loose as most likely the case.
A breeder friend of ours had a good mare but modest on her page who had bred a GR winning 2 y'old he made a mistake in paying more and covering her with expensive stallions ones in the 50/75k range all the time thinking like some on here 'if I pay more' none of that mares stock sold anywhere near the stud fee,against my advice of using a fast precocious stallion from the cheaper range,but some can't see the wood for the trees I guess!
As for the next years fee for hot sire Monsieur Bond I don't know yet but if he was mine I'd keep him the same and get mares in if they do put him up then only a small rise maybe 4/5k but no more,I hate them to make the same mistake the English National stud have done with Pastoral Pursuits.......now he looks expensive to me.
A breeder friend of ours had a good mare but modest on her page who had bred a GR winning 2 y'old he made a mistake in paying more and covering her with expensive stallions ones in the 50/75k range all the time thinking like some on here 'if I pay more' none of that mares stock sold anywhere near the stud fee,against my advice of using a fast precocious stallion from the cheaper range,but some can't see the wood for the trees I guess!
As for the next years fee for hot sire Monsieur Bond I don't know yet but if he was mine I'd keep him the same and get mares in if they do put him up then only a small rise maybe 4/5k but no more,I hate them to make the same mistake the English National stud have done with Pastoral Pursuits.......now he looks expensive to me.
With the theme ongoing about the cheap stallions and the value they can give what do breeders think about Throckmorton studs sire Assertive?By a fast stallion in Bold Edge out of the stakes producing mare Tart and a Half dam of speedy Boogie Street,I'd say his yearlings sold well enough this year so far but see also he covered just 40 mares in his first year.Facing his runners next year is this good looking ex Richard Hannon trained runner worth a punt for pinhooking a nice one later on at the foal sales.Any views?
Well I'm never very convinced anyone has the breeder's best interests at heart when setting stud fees. Crank it up as high as demand will allow and beggar the fact that they look stupid a season later. I'm not sure all those folks that lost money on their Invincible Spirit yearlings last year thought him so 'hot' as to justify a 15000k fee increase.
When you're looking at putting 2k on a cheapie's fee and it's going to cost you 10+ k to get the offspring to the sales anyway, well the 2k extra loss on a disappointing sale which is obviously very possible at that level, to me isn't anything like as unsettling as the mega losses available on the expensive sires.
Guys that stand cheap stallions are struggling all the time. I begrudge them a slightly chancy fee rise less than the plain greedy major players.
I'm only in foal to 5k or less sires this year but obviously I pushed my ordinary mares above the 1500 stud fee they deserved - I daresay I'll get burned.
after all its his cash to gamble with ... or lose as most likely the case.
I think that the above is verging on the rude quite frankly.
And given that the game is so inexact I'm not sure quite what breeds such dogma.
When you're looking at putting 2k on a cheapie's fee and it's going to cost you 10+ k to get the offspring to the sales anyway, well the 2k extra loss on a disappointing sale which is obviously very possible at that level, to me isn't anything like as unsettling as the mega losses available on the expensive sires.
Guys that stand cheap stallions are struggling all the time. I begrudge them a slightly chancy fee rise less than the plain greedy major players.
I'm only in foal to 5k or less sires this year but obviously I pushed my ordinary mares above the 1500 stud fee they deserved - I daresay I'll get burned.
after all its his cash to gamble with ... or lose as most likely the case.
I think that the above is verging on the rude quite frankly.
And given that the game is so inexact I'm not sure quite what breeds such dogma.
Oh Pot M don't take offence I'm not being rude,people who know me know tact is not something I'm known for,I'm well known for speaking on the 'phone for several hours to my employees if I feel they don't get my point,they also think I'm damn right rude,but don't take any notice I'm not trying to offend you or imply your mares are crap!
What I am sure of Prima is that I want to be in on the next Danetime-esque sensation, and I'm charging you with finding it for me!
Get working.
( Don't say M.B., he's on the shortlist! Do you think they'll double the fee next season? )
Hey Pot M - what about a horse such as Triple Aspect (Dual G3 winner by Danetime out of a Distant Relative mare) - I know he's going to stud and they are looking for 20 shares @ €8,000 each?
Get working.
( Don't say M.B., he's on the shortlist! Do you think they'll double the fee next season? )
Hey Pot M - what about a horse such as Triple Aspect (Dual G3 winner by Danetime out of a Distant Relative mare) - I know he's going to stud and they are looking for 20 shares @ €8,000 each?
Johnny Mustang,
Where is he likely to retire to do you know yet?I guess with shares available at 8k euro's its going to be here rather than the UK.Le Cadre Noir is another new son of the mighty Danetime again a fast horse and like all his other sons a very good looker and at just 2.5k euro's cant be bad.Have you seen Triple Aspect? If so what's he like?
Where is he likely to retire to do you know yet?I guess with shares available at 8k euro's its going to be here rather than the UK.Le Cadre Noir is another new son of the mighty Danetime again a fast horse and like all his other sons a very good looker and at just 2.5k euro's cant be bad.Have you seen Triple Aspect? If so what's he like?
I know you have - how shall I put it now - quite a 'direct, manner Prima!
I suppose that comment just plucked a nerve.
But I'm not feeling as soft today perhaps, so you're forgiven
I saw one of the smart Assertives at Donny and he really was quite impressive. I don't know what it was though, but something about him smacked of well muscled show horse. Plenty for the trainer to go with - Hannon in this case - so I might be wrong. Sire line is a bit disappointing these days, although he is fairly representative of the last 3 generations of it so perhaps it will result in it heading successfully into a 4th.
Triple Aspect represents the phenomena so often spoken about here of a horse that's been allowed to self-chill on account of going on a season too long does he not?
He's Danehill speed though, so who knows.
Given Habitat's pretty dismal record as a sire of sires and as a broodmare sire of stallions, I worry about Distant relatives role in the same position in these guys.
I suppose that comment just plucked a nerve.
But I'm not feeling as soft today perhaps, so you're forgiven
I saw one of the smart Assertives at Donny and he really was quite impressive. I don't know what it was though, but something about him smacked of well muscled show horse. Plenty for the trainer to go with - Hannon in this case - so I might be wrong. Sire line is a bit disappointing these days, although he is fairly representative of the last 3 generations of it so perhaps it will result in it heading successfully into a 4th.
Triple Aspect represents the phenomena so often spoken about here of a horse that's been allowed to self-chill on account of going on a season too long does he not?
He's Danehill speed though, so who knows.
Given Habitat's pretty dismal record as a sire of sires and as a broodmare sire of stallions, I worry about Distant relatives role in the same position in these guys.
Hi Prima,
Actually I haven't seen him, but yes he will be standing in Eire and I think all shareholders get the chance to send 3 mares to him in his first two years. Could easily see him getting 100+ mares first couple of years at least, based on how the stud has performed with the most recent stallion they stand (although believe me, they are polar opposites!).
Actually I haven't seen him, but yes he will be standing in Eire and I think all shareholders get the chance to send 3 mares to him in his first two years. Could easily see him getting 100+ mares first couple of years at least, based on how the stud has performed with the most recent stallion they stand (although believe me, they are polar opposites!).
Do the words Papal and Bull have a connection then J M ?
I saw a Papal Bull advertisement consisting of a topless woman in blue jeans with her back to the camera, she had a little bull branded in the small of her back...... make what you will of that, I thought it looked great fwiw.
Triple Aspect pluses - speed family and Danetime (if that floats your boat). Negatives are surely soundness and why on earth in a world of handicappers winning Grp1 sprints has this thing only ever run in one Grp1. Is this seam not mined enough (without yet producing gold) by Bushranger and Baltic King?
Yearlings are selling well............ How much will he be next year?
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539