Born To Sea (IRE) following on from Sea The Stars / Galileo

very very exciting prospect. A listed win on debut guarentees a berth at stud. But which stud? The irish national stud so the 3brother are available through different sources or maybe darly uk at whichhe'd be a smash it. Im abit underwhelmed by oxx's targeting i kinda thought the Prix Jean-Luc Lagardère given the family ties and the distance and timing. That said if he stays the mile next year we are in for a treat and months of speculation aboutstud fee and wherehe wil stand. A question to the more learned of those around, how much more is Invincible spirit valued that cape cross from a pure sire perspective (please dont draw a debate about sts vs bts as im such a sts fan, im just trying to gague the cape cross factor)

He is a certainty really isn't he

DMCK

No point in doing too much thinking about I.S v C.C. just let Born To Sea do the talking!

I am not sure Invincible Spirit is ever going to come up with a Sea The Stars or a Ouija Board. He's a speed stallion really more adept with 2yo - sprinters.

I think that Cape Cross though not as sexy now is better bred and perhaps more likely to have more influence with a classic mare like Urban Sea.

interesting pm, id have thought that is the more appealing of the 2 and i figured that bts would try sprinting distances very much in the guise of dream ahead after tackling the 2000g. So as acover for a mare he'd seem to be more likely of geting early 2yr olds while i cant see sts having too many runers beforejuly 1st.i agree that is wont get a oaks or derby horse but its unfair to expect that given how he gives speed in abundance.
As a side note i really liked how chery hiltons wading shaped up today, wouldlike to see her covered the same again with the hope of getting a colt

I too would be of the opinion that a son of Invincible Spirit would hold greater appeal than a son of Cape Cross as so far CC has not been successful as a sire of sires,STS is trading off his racetrack form along with his dam's influence as he is a half bro' to CH sire Galileo is a much more positive aspect than being a son of Cape Cross that point is largely forgotten...........or perhaps played down!

I am not sure what we are discussing here really. It didn't stop me from posting a reply mind originally, and I'm sure you'll all testify to the fact that rubbish talking is a skill I have in abundance!

As a sire of sires I have no recollection of any actual sons of Cape Cross making it to stud so I don't see we can do anything but guess at that. He went to stud 3 years before Invincible Spirit did so they are not particularly comparable but ofcourse fashion, youf (relative) and precocity will afford plenty of I.S. colts chances.

I don't see C.C. as a negative in Sea The Stars as he is very well bred and bought out the absolute best in a fabulous all time mare - even eclipsing Sadlers in that respect - so you get a sort of pinnacle of purity with S T S that I don't think Invincible Spirit could match as his skills lie elsewhere and mixing him with Urban Sea makes for a slightly confusing genetic match.

Listening to Prima Donna ( and yes I do ) has slightly introduced the niggle in me that the S.T.S. progeny will take time and we all know that a sire has to be just about championship level for breeders to forgive that. Extreme talent can get a bkwd type competitive at 2 when really their aptitude is about 3+ and I reckon that is probably the case  with Sea The Stars.

Still the best  sire prospect around for me though. And I include Frankel in that.

Apart from a lame name (Sea the Spirit?) there is nothing not to like about this colt as a future stallion.  Unfortunately he's already 'done' enough to be £10k+ and is one/any guineas away from £25k+

IMO Born to Sea is the best sire prospect around. incl Frankel. Frankel will be wildly commercial but BTS can cover all those Danehill and Sadlers mares that are excluded from Frankel. STS looks like a 3yo+ sire and Cape Cross does nothing to alleviate that. Whilst BTS is not perhaps the most early and precocious looking son of IS, he does hold the hope that he could sire earlier types.

Oxx said he would have run him in July but for sore shins and could have run him in April, the only thing is, they say they are going for that 7f Group 3 at Leopardstown, the Killavullan I think, would they not aim a little higher maybe, ie. a Group 1, will it make much difference?

I guess the Leopardstown race looks a sensible choice of future targets neil d,as seeing him run the other day I'd say he ran a little green but once he got going his class won him the race,he sure does look a great prospect but over facing him now in a GR1 could perhaps over stretch him as he's very inexperienced and possibly sour him,he's not the smallest looking 2'y,old in the world so Oxx will want to take it gently bently and nurture his ability not to mention his obvious potential and not get him beaten..........just yet anyway!

Id have thought even placing in a group one at two would be higher regarded than a group three win. I don wonder what type of ground he will favour as we got a lot abput how sts needed good firm griund but galileo loved soft ground, would this have much bearing on thoughts ofhim as a sire.
We do know that oxx will carefully manage him and has such ability to keep a horse going over the summer and autumn.
Im i right in thinking that he most likely wont stand in gilstown beside his brother?

DMCK, it wouldn't make any difference to me if the two horses stood at the same stud. They might do me a deal - 10 grand for the 2 anyone!!

Prima, I think you've had a little drinkie at lunchtime have you not?

Would you really right now prefer to use the 105 rated Born to Sea than the 140 rated Sea The Stars?
3/4 brothers, STS by a better bred sire.
Cape Cross 44, 110+ rated.
Invincible Spirit 15, 110+ rated.

Born To Sea is a great racing prospect - although 'mechanically' not nearly as impressive as his 3 parts brother but his prospects as a sire surely have to wait awhile for an accurate assessment.

potentialmillionaire,
I have not said I would use BTS over STS right now,as for the most obvious thing is BTS is only two and still in training.If and when he does go to stud and is half as good as STS then yes I'd rather him,If you can't see how much more of a great prospect he is in terms of commercialness and being by Invincible Spirit offering a greater chance of getting the so needed 2 y'olds than his BIG brother then I'd give it up if I were you.
And as for those stat's you put up let me remind you IS has not been at stud as long as CC,so maybe they are a bit unfair.We often here about Montjeu v Galileo,Galileo regarded as the best they are pretty even overall but Galileo gets better class 2 y'olds that's why he's so popular,but without Coolmore sending him plenty of mares who are likely to get that sort doubt he would of been so good,however well bred Cape Cross is he is pretty disappointing at getting early sorts along with being a crappy sire of sires.
And just so as you know I have used STS on several mares of ours I'm not expecting precocious sorts from him,my feeling with him is he is going to be like any of the Aga's stallions can get a good one but never as good as was hoped for.......personally I can see the horse I'm not blinded by my rose tinted glasses so many seem to put on when they either talk about him or even just look.

Well Prima, you're one up on me as I am not really aware of any Cape Cross stallions at stud so I couldn't call him crappy at a job he hasn't actually tried.

I haven't commented much on Cape Cross versus Invincible Spirit and their appeal in the commercial stallion marketplace as I was under the impression that the point under discussion was our views on their actual sire of sire prospects.

I would surely rather be turning up to the sales right now with an Invincible Spirit than a Cape Cross (indeed I was looking at a Part 1 yearling on a certain stud's website earlier as it happens - very commercial I would think [;)] ). However I can't agree that Invincible Spirit's ability to get good -but not outstanding- 2yo's puts him as a probable sire of sire prospects better than Sea The Stars is.

In your post you stated that Born To Sea is 'the best sire prospect around'. Perhaps I was a teensy bit naughty in holding you to that literally! As to a 'potentially' prefixing that we'll agree to differ.

Were you guys not ever so slightly not worried about his action on Saturday?
I just have a suspicion that great moving colts have a head start at stud as it's a part of the symmetry and balance that's so important - well to me at least!

potentialmillionaire     12 Sep 11 22:26 
Well Prima, you're one up on me as I am not really aware of any Cape Cross stallions at stud so I couldn't call him crappy at a job he hasn't actually tried.
Have another look,we bred one he went straight off as a 'duel purpose sire' I'm sure you can find him if you do take a look.
Glad you liked the yearling and I'd agree very commercial much more appeal being by Invinsible Spirit than Cape Cross.Pot M any young stallion will be more acceptable as a prospect with a great commercial stallion behind him,No two ways about it Cape Cross is not that good in that department and he's been at stud long enough to of got one.

Were you guys not ever so slightly not worried about his action on Saturday?

Yes as I said above he's not the smallest sort he does look a bit backward to me and looked more than a little green.And as for movement being so important to you didn't you like Equiano?That great chinese shuffler,and just for the record I am well qualified to comment on him[;)]......but I suspect you know why.BTW what did you think of the web site?

Just had a quick look;
Cape Crossto stud in 2000 at IRP 8,000 at the Kildangan Stud is the sire of 126 Stakes performers (36 Group winners, 31 Listed winners)of the 8 Gr1 winners the top Gr1 perfomers were;
OUIJA BOARD from his first crop,
OUIJA BOARD (GB) (Welsh Pageant: Darley Irish Oaks, Curragh, Gr.1, Prince of Wales's Stakes, Ascot, Gr.1, Vodafone Nassau Stakes, Goodwood, Gr.1, Vodafone Oaks Stakes, Epsom Downs, Gr.1, Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Vase, Sha Tin, Gr.1, Emirates Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf, Churchill Downs, Gr.1, VO5 Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf, Lone Star Park, Gr.1
SEA THE STARS (IRE) (Miswaki (USA): Coral Eclipse Stakes, Sandown Park, Gr.1, Investec Derby Stakes, Epsom Downs, Gr.1, Juddmonte International Stakes, York, Gr.1, Tatts Millions Irish Champion Stakes, Leopardstown, Gr.1, stanjames.com 2000 Guineas, Newmarket, Gr.1, Qatar Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Longchamp, Gr.1, Juddmonte Beresford Stakes, Curragh, Gr.2; sire
The following are his sons at stud;
Confuchias Haras de la Foret    FR 1,800 EUR
Crosspeace Dairy House Stud     GB 1,000 GBP
Recharge   Shade Oak Stud       GB 2,000 GBP
Sea the Stars Giltown Stud      IRE 85,000 EUR   
What A Caper Pastures Barn Stud GB  1,200 GBP

Invincible Spirit; to stud in 2003 at EUR 10,000 at the Irish National Stud
Sire of 83 Stakes performers (20 Group winners, 25 Listed winners)of the 6 Gr1 winners the top Gr1 perfomers were;
FLEETING SPIRIT (IRE) (Distant Relative: Darley July Cup, Newmarket, Gr.1, Polypipe Flying Childers Stakes, Doncaster, Gr.2, betfred.com Temple Stakes, Haydock Park, Gr.2, Betfair Molecomb Stakes, Goodwood, Gr.3, second in Betfred Sprint Cup, Haydock Park, Gr.1, Cheveley Park Stakes, Newmarket, Gr.1, King's Stand Stakes, Ascot, Gr.1, Qatar Prix de l'Abbaye de Longchamp, Longchamp, Gr.1
LAWMAN (FR) (Gulch (USA): Prix Jean Prat, Chantilly, Gr.1, Prix du Jockey Club - Mitsubishi Motors, Chantilly, Gr.1, Prix de Guiche, Chantilly, Gr.3; sire).
The following are his sons at stud;
Captain Marvelous  Ballyhane Stud   IRE    3,000 EUR
Lawman             Ballylinch Stud  IRE   15,000 EUR
Vale of York       Kildangan Stud   IRE    5,000 EUR
Zebedee            Tally-Ho  Stud   IRE    5,000 EUR
  As you all are aware Lawman  has his first crop 2 ylds this year and has sires 8-21 38% winners.

As you can see you are far more likely to get a precocious sort with Invincible Spirit.Take say two stallions one's like Oasis Dream who was fast and King's Best was high class and from the same family as STS,but as everyone knows Oasis Dream is red Hot and very commercial because he gets lots of precocious 2 y'olds that are high class where as King's Best has overall been disappointing  his stock want more time to mature and a trip too.
With the time Cape Cross has been at stud and lots think has been so good, Pot M why is it then that the stallions listed above are his only representatives?
If BTS is a good runner similar to his star sibling the fact he is by Invincible Spirit would elevate his commercial appeal above his brother.As I often say we are all entitled to our opinions,but its slightly staggering that some on here cant see that fact despite the appearance of being commercial breeders.Morning Pot M!!!

Airmail Special I'll thank you for not joining Prima Donna's gang

I want to be able to still walk round the odd corner without the knuckle dusters waiting

My point is this. Cape Cross has not had colts with the right commercial profile to be set up as stallions. Those cheapies listed at stud stand next to no chance.

Commercial appeal is desperately helpful if you want to be a success at stud as the true owner breeder types are very thin on the ground. However some stallions do potter along getting very good race horses and assembling stud records that don't necessarily help them at Goffs and Tatts but still leave them as comfortably better sires than many more fashionable.

Cape Cross has many elements of this and I think if he continues in the same vein he is unlikely to produce many horses desirable to the majority of breeders. HOWEVER, with good  support I see no reason why a Cape Cross son shouldn't have as good a crack as the next horse. Indeed with his family and sire line he has a head start over all but the very best sired sons in my opinion.

Support is obviously all, but I don't see Sea The Stars lacking on that front.

So of course I will agree, I won't be queuing up to use a son of Cape Cross right now, but then again with 85k in my pocket last spring things might have been very different!

You know we aren't too far apart commercially Prima, from discussions we have had in the past ( Don't you dare mention my most recent sales topper ) but i like to keep a handle on what's happening to the breed on the track too!

I did like Equiano you are right, but despite them being rather keen on the mare that I mentioned, I couldn't get over the shuffle! Do you happen to know if that is why the breeders off loaded as a foal?

That website I was looking at I am enjoying. There was a grey on there that I thought was a little more forward than I expected?

I'd say sheer numbers may carry this fella for a time at least, he just looks such a no brainer to my uneducated eye.

I wonder would Mr Tsui keep this guy going for a few years after his classic career.

I think this lad will be more enjoy to race type than Sea The Stars. I be surprised he be whisked off to stud quickly

Funny thing, u might be right, but you'd have thought STS would have been the one to improve for the extra time, this lad is 'close coupled', we might have seen the best of him by October, Oxx said he could have run him in april.

Running in April is very worringly for me to back him for the 2000 Guineas.

Let see about Mr Oxx...he loves to defuse pressure and hype. I say he is Fishing[;)]

^^^^
Aye, that is a point.

How come the Tsui's don't have more horses in training. Are they a purely a home bred based operation bar the Stayer by Galileo??.

Have they bought many mare's for STS?

that is something i have thought of a few times, i belief i read that they had 13 mares as part of their sun-land holdings.
i remember they spent big last year at tatts on a mare, that they said was to be covered by STS, can only figure they will have may more in training in the next 3-4 years.
out of interest because they breed Galileo do they have a nomination? i read that Christopher sends a mare to galileo each year.