new stallions for 2012

Sammy,its still a bit early for any potential stallion retiring announcements yet,next month we should know a bit more.

With the aggressive way Frederick Engels was being campaigned - prior to the wheels coming off - I wonder if we were going to get the 1st English example of the retire them at 2 phenomena?

Engels sold to race in Hong Kong.

cc to coolmore
pour moi to coolmore
so you think to coolmore
excelebration to coolmore maybe 2012

do i see a clear out at coolmore next year? whos leaving?

cant think of any others yet

Frankel ?

cc to coolmore
pour moi to coolmore
so you think to coolmore
excelebration to coolmore maybe 2012

and another 5 coolmore horses to retire,cape blanco, fame and glory,st nicks abbey,await the dawn,Roderic O'Connor.

might need to get the builders in for some new stables lol

must be some one else talking about new stallions as tatts starts in 3 weeks.

frankel to race on?
society rock to race on?
dream ahead to race on?
workforce to race on?
nathaniel to race on?
dubai gold  to race on?
strong suit to race on ?
harbour watch to race on ?

Cape Blanco maybe, Excelebration yes Pour Moi maybe.

So You Think doesn't do it for me and all the others are much of a muchness.

There is a strictly limited market for Galileo and Montjeu stayers and they know that. I can't really see them standing anything new above CB PM and SYT. Do you think SYT definitely gets a berth?

If anyone wants them, Arakan and Dick Turpin need to finish. I would think a high profile late season win for Lilbourne Lad would see him hitting the Emerald Isle at 2. Presumably a cheap berth for Total Gallery and Monsieur Chevalier awaits if nothing desirable appears too.

maybe syt will stand in oz initially? should be a good market for him out there

Just watching a recording of the Irish show on ATR last night and Duggan reckons SYT might be kept in training next year[:o], where would he have gotten this from?

We must also consider who will be sold to mike de c@#k, cape blanco will be going state side and it is very possible a montjeu will join him there.
Roderic and recital must be on mikes shopping list for an assult on dubai, unless st nic wins the arc and/or the breeders cup turf he'll be sold off somewhere, await the dawn has done nothing to deserve a place at stud yet so could stay in training, fame and glory will go for the gold cup again and eventually be a national hunt sire.
I cant see aiden making the mistake of having too many older horses in training as has happened this year,

i dont think they would have brought syt all the way to europe for the prize money as its crap compared to what he could have won in aus.also now with his sire being fully booked in aus he will take a bit of i think he will stand in pressure of him especially as he stands at 99000 k ie over 15 million aus dollars a year.i think he will stand in europe next year-his sire hc mighten.

Reckon David Wachman,s colt Requinto will be retiring later this year,connections are looking at the GR1 Middle Park for his next run,oh no not another 2 y'old retiring.........I can hear Pot M and yer ma's thoughts even now!But he has a smashing classy page behind him along with a very popular sire,he's just the sort to get precocious stock and just the sort who wont train on.Unless Zoffany bags a GR1 this year I think he will stay in training as they will be both in a similar price range competing for the same mares and both by emerging sire Dansili.
Have to say don't fancy So You Think at all,if he gets 2 y'olds I'll eat my hat!

PD
what sort of fee will Requinto stand at if he doesn't win a Group 1?

Hi truehoncho,Would think if he doesn't win a GR1 then he'd be about 5k euro's, similar range to Alfred Nobel.Do you like him as a prospect?BTW thought you made a valid point on the other thread the other day,hope too you happy seeing both the Bond's selling well yesterday...........I was

pd, was at the champion stakes on sat, syt was a huge horse twice the size ofrodetic, cannot see him having a runner the good side of october, then again with clever marketing he is odds on to cover a book of +100,
I like requinto dont thi k he needs a g1 this year per say but if he goes on next year pickig up a weak g1 or placing in a quality g1 he'd be very sought after given him dam

I thought that such thoughts on Requinto would make it onto here tonight!

His retirement certainly crossed my mind today, he sure did seem tiny on the telly today. I also thought he looked rather nice and he does seem to be a good commercial package. I don't think I would use him though as I am usually looking for a bit more size for my lot.

It would be interesting to see how Coolmore wriggle out of racing him next year if that's the route they go. 50/50 I would say.

I agree DMCK,I too was at the champion stakes and for me So You Think is too big,but with his connections they are just the people to as you say market him and really make him look attractive.If they send him good mares he might just do it bit personally I doubt either I'd say he has limited appeal up here.
And I also would agree that Requinto does not need that GR1 win to hold much more appeal than he already does......but it still would be nice.

PD

I like Requinto because he is a speddy son of Dansili, which is why I started a thread about Bated Breath. I get the feeling that sprinter sons of Dansili may emulate sprinter sons of Danehill. If he went to stud next year at 5k he would be close to teh top of my list. I am probably one of the few who doesn't want him to win a Group 1 as it may well price me out!!

Yes I am more than happy with the M Bond returns and thanks for the advice.

dont get me wrong a g1 would add 2k easily to his fee but imagine how sexy he'd look if he tackled the prix abbeye on arc weekend rather than against his own ages, the thing is coolmore know how sexy a champion sprinter sounds, i can see him staying on and going for the july cup and haydock sprint ala dream ahead.
Given the trend towards quick 2year olds SYT has his work cut out but id be looking into a cheap 3rd season fee with a view to race the foal myself, patience is your prenium!!

I dont think he would be for me. He is the type i would want and with the dam being so good he has the whole package but for me having Sadlers Wells, Darshaan and a stamina influence like Dansili it could lead to anything but he certainly has his dams turn of foot but what kind of mare would i send to him? How small is he?

I would prefer to see Excelebration bag a group 1 and retire to be honest. He is going to be commercial as long as he is retired next year, any time after that is going the way Darley go and i cant see Coolmore being that way

God, he really is tiny isn't he and what an attitude, in this instance I suppose, it probably is best to call it quits.

Born to Sea looked a lovely prospect today, we all know his background, would have been out earlier but for sore shins, looks a real 2yo/sprinter miler next year. He has probably secured his next career at some level just on that performance today tbh, surely you guys will be interested the year after next, seemed to have buckets of speed.

Any news re Dick Turpin?  Always in Canford Cliffs shadow but a lovely looking horse

one less in england  for 2012 now
refuse to bend leaves for france for the breeders bonuses lol.

does w manor stud need a new stallion now or is this a year studs dont want stallions due to massive fall in mares being breed since 2007

only 12 weeks to xmas lol

so far only
cc to coolmore
pour moi to coolmore
dream ahead to some where

It certainly has the feel of a quiet one, new retirements wise, sammy.

I hadn't given declining mare numbers much thought in terms of peoples wishes to stand a new stallion, perhaps it is a contributary factor to the seemingly slow 'reveal'

Mind you I would have thought that fewer mares would be more likely to result in 'ordinary old timers' speedier exits, than a slow down in the new and the sexy!

update so far

cc to coolmore
pour moi to coolmore
dream ahead to some where which we now know is ballylinch in ireland

still looks like a slow year for new stallions

i heard only 6000 mares covered in ireland this year but seems very low as 7000 approx foals born this year-maybe i am wrong ? but if its right they wont need any more new stallions.

update for ireland and england new stallions 2012-coming slowly


cc to coolmore in ireland -price ?
pour moi to coolmore in ireland -price ?
dream ahead to  ballylinch in ireland -price ?
Lilbourne Lad (2 yr old) to rathbarry in ireland -price ?

Uncle Mo to Coolmore America[;)]...another expensive one their lads even if US Based

Can Coolmore make a stallion out of Zoffany?

Surely he has better credentials than all these 110 rated 2yo's being retired with not much pedigree and even less scope?

Obviously there is chance that things will look a little rosier for him at 10.47 tonight, but they presumably are quite keen to have a crack with him given his speedy profile.

update for ireland and england new stallions 2012-coming slowly


cc to coolmore in ireland -price ?
pour moi to coolmore in ireland -price ?
dream ahead to  ballylinch in ireland -17500 euro, max 130 mares-i thought would have been 12 or 15
Lilbourne Lad (2 yr old) to rathbarry in ireland -price ?

sammy_f I'm with you on the Dream Ahead price. However as an independent hell bent on building a commercial stallion portfolio Ballylinch appear to be paying too much for these horses and for me their fees are just too fruity.

Dick Turpin was a nearly horse last season but the 3yo's have exposed him as moderate this year.

I don't think DT is moderate. Maybe not top class but certainly high class.

update for ireland and england new stallions 2012-coming slowly


cc to coolmore in ireland -price ?
pour moi to coolmore in ireland -price ?
dream ahead to  ballylinch in ireland - 17.5 euro
Lilbourne Lad (2 yr old) to rathbarry in ireland -price ?
dick turpin to british national stud in england -price ?

i like dt but i think u will see a price of 4/5/6 k-he will be a struggle as his sire didnt do anything really.what price cc will be interesting as dick did beat him a few times.wonder how long ns will keep this one or will he end up in france after 2 years too.

St Nicholas Abbey should be sold with a better alternative in Camelot to race.

one more expensive one i think

update for ireland and england new stallions 2012-coming slowly


cc to coolmore in ireland -price ?
pour moi to coolmore in ireland -price ?
dream ahead to  ballylinch in ireland - 17.5 euro
Lilbourne Lad (2 yr old) to rathbarry in ireland -price ?
**** turpin to british national stud in england -7k stg
poets voice to darley in england -price ?

How is everyone with Poets Voice?

I imagine he will be very keenly priced as he's fizzled out rather, but his record isn't bad and he was reasonably precocious and sound.

However although he looked quite glamourous on the box, I note he stands 16.2 and I imagine he perhaps doesn't have the most commercial look as an individual. Echo of Light anyone?

that suprises me pot I have seen him at ascot twice he's very good looking and did'nt look that big to me frankel dwarft him

any guesses on a fee?

should have gone to stud last year, but if priced right could be worth a go. would be more interested in dubawi gold. any news on him?

I think he races on

update -looks like nothing new under 5 k really this year except pd plus only 9 new stallions so far -there would be more died/moved on or retired from last year than that -ie less stallions.

cc to coolmore in ireland -price ?
pour moi to coolmore in ireland -price ?
zoffany to coolmore in ireland -price?
dream ahead to  ballylinch in ireland - 17.5 euro
Lilbourne Lad (2 yr old) to rathbarry in ireland -price ?
rod o connor to ballyhane stud in ireland -price ?



**** turpin to british national stud in england -7k stg
poets voice to darley in england - 12k stg
prime defender to hedgeholme -price?

Anyone been a'viewing of the new boys yet?

I did Poets Voice and **** Turpin this week and I'm going to do a couple of days in Ireland before the end of the month. (What fun, 2 days in the Emerald Isle and a whole week wrestling with the Ryanair/Aer Lingus websites!)

Anyone got there before me?

Is it just me who thought Total Gallery was a snip at 32k?With few new stallions retiring I'd have thought a job over here could of been found for him.A fast stakes winning 2 y'old who went on to win a top GR1 by a GR1 sprint winning son of Indian Ridge out of a Green Desert mare who is also a good looker.I'm not suggesting for one moment he would ever be CH sire potential but I reckon he'd be as good a prospect as some of the sires who now grace the paddocks of some studs here or in the UK.Plenty thought the non 2 y'old running Sleeping Indian was a good bet.Is it just me or does anyone else agree?

It's always nip or tuck with his type is it not. I suppose you could sight another post on here about the 1/2 length in the Derby costing the Weinstocks so dear.

I imagine the Qatar boys gave a lot more for him and had hopes to build an improved record to guarantee stud interest, although to be fair I think their public statement suggested he was just purchased as a racing prospect.

For me 2 listed wins and a 'nicked'? Gp 1 is not a big attraction when it is streched over such a long career. ofcourse the fizzling out factor is a tough sell too - although Poets Voice seems to be priced without much worry on that front!

But categorical I could not be as I agree there are certainly similar types having a try.

PD

I noticed this fella myself. I don't really know if TG is a serious business opportunity for anyone now, however he certainly was after his G1 win, even if he did nick it. He was a precocious enough stkes winning 2yo who was placed a couple of times in group companyas a 3yo before nicking his G1.

He was from a decent family and wasn't a cheap foal. It amazes me that connections din't sell/retire him after his 3yo campaign. What on earth did they expect from him?

The big problem with sprinters is consistency. They all seem to take their turn each week beating each other. However from a marketing point of view this is 'toughness' and 'soundness'. You also have black type in each of the first 4 dams and his Dam has produced another gr 1 horse. He was a high priced foal (esp as his yearling half sister made just 5,200 before him).

So for marketing we have;
45,000gns foal
Stakes winning 2yo that Trained on TFR 123
Stakes producing family
Out of a Green Desert mare the same as ..etc etc
Speedy Indian Ridge sire-line
Ideal for Danehill or Sadlers mares
Group 1 winner beating Group 1 winners Equiano, Fleeting Spirit and Borderlescott.

I would of thought he'd be a ideal business opportunity for a small stud wanting a new sire,at just 32k I think he'd pay for himself in year 1.We often hear some breeders complaining about some sires not running at 3 retired at 2,even when they do run on in this case at 4/5 all he seems to of achieved for his efforts is slating now for a lack of consistency  like you truehoncho I don't know what his connections expected from him.

Below are the notes from his Racing Post page.

I thing Primas marketing is the one to go with!


(foal 45,000euros vendor, 2yo £32,000 not sold) 2nd foal; dam triple 7f winner at 3 in Greece, half-sister to quite useful duo Al Waffi, dual 7f winner at 2, & Sunday Symphony, triple 1m-14f winner at 2-4, & to Triumph Hurdle winner Made In Japan

I can always start marketing stallions if you think I'd be any good!But you can see how easy TG would of been to market....32k where the hell were the stallion studs.

I reckon you've sold the odd igloo to an eskimo over the years Prima!

I don't want to name any of them, but the fact is there are a lot of horses with a lot less going for them being foisted on us for sure. Blue Dakota anyone?

At the price its hard to argue with PD but I'd sure not want to try to sell a Total Gallery foal.  Then again its bizarre to me people turning up with Firebreaks, Indesatchels, Milk it micks etc. so why not take their covers.

Wish I hadnt been so busy otherwise I'd have seen a few notable stallions.  Woman catering in the Darley tent was plain rude (clearly didnt regard me as a breeder) so I didnt hang about to chat either.  I'm wavering on PV but I think I need more speed and quality so may go for broke on a Dansili. Anyone know if they'll properly deal on Makfi this year?

Looks like someones foal sales went well yer ma!!!!!

I don't have a mare suitable for Poets Voice, but I didn't think he lacked on the glamour front (conformationally) allbeit a little ropey infront.

yer ma,What about Dream Ahead? Top Class multiple GR1 winner with a very fast page and will be popular with buyers,a bit more than PV but think he'd be worth the extra when you sell.Take a look at page 93/94 of James Underwood's flat review he gives his opinion of the horse's potential,I know you initially not so keen but he might be worth a second look.

I will look again at him PD. The pedigree is a worry - I hadnt notice before that his siblings in general havent been precocious or speedy.  The 2yo needs further for sure but in fairness they've been by staying stallions.  Tricky.  Any vibes for Zoffany?

The selection of new stallions for next year in england is so poor that I'm looking more towards using second season sires and planning to sell the offspring as foals. Safe bet, better stallions.

Anyone know why 2012 is so bad?

i couldn't agree more Wilycayote, but i dont know why.

no new options at Juddmonte, Shadwell, Whitsbury, Mickley, Cheveley etc. DT at National stud will surely be popular, even if a bit overpriced?

I think there are opportunities for 1 or 2 to be retired and get good books this year, for example Dubawi Gold could do really well.

the reason its so poor this  is a supply and demand issue-this will continue untill the smaller studs see more mares being covered again.ie they dont want to work for a loss.

less mares = less foals = less stallions required in uk and ireland

as u can see in france = more mares = more foals = more stallions required

breeding has changed a massive amount in uk and ireland last few years and if it wasnt for coolmore or darley with large customer/mare bases with top stallions it would have collapsed.

Damn, I missed this post while rattling on on the other one!

Return of Mares 2011

Zebedee  covered  161 mares

Arcano            123        (Precisely what constitutes Derrinstowns 'Limited Book' !

Fast Company      119

Stimulation        80

Approve           120

Vale Of York      116

Showcasing        117

I think demand for the cheaper commercial sire is holding up!
There probably is just a lack of the right types is there not?

I am keen on Zoffany and will see him later this month. But it's another late maturing page and that picture of him as a yearling in the Coolmore catalogue doesn't exactly shout 'sharp' does it?

Arcano & Showcasing would be my choice from the above. Coincidental, since they started their racing careers in the same maiden!

As I've said, Would rather go to the 2nd season stallions than pay over the top for Dturpin, as I don't have a mare that would get in to Poets Voice.

I'm not mad keen on Zoffany being a son of Dansili with his page I have my doubts his stock will be that precocious in a year or two if Stratigic Prince fizzles out as I think he might and if Zoffany's stock either don't sell that well or look sharp a sale of Zoffany would not be a million miles off the horizon,it wont be the first time connections sell off a cheap sire before he's been really tested.
Showcasing and Arcano look value 2nd season,Fast Company might do it he's sure to get good looking sorts but for me 5k far too much like all of them mind it does depend on your mare.

Last night at a dinner party I was talking to a new breeder who was telling me all about new sire Eastern Antham and how well bred he was,he went on to say he was sending him a mare as he would be (in his view)commercial.I was very polite in my response but all the time that little voice in my head was screaming 'IDIOT'OMG still it takes all sorts I suppose.

I'm glad you bit your lip Prima, I'd have been very upset if you'd upset my plans and I was having such a lovely evening. . .

Seriously though, is there another industry that is so fuelled by wealthy misguided types who think that it's a piece of cake? I do think it has way more than its fair share of operations that just bumble along because it's a bit of fun and there's a trust fund that needs spending some way or another. Those of us who serve our aprenticeship (whilst acknowledging you never actally graduate) could do with a few less subsidising the market.

Mind you, as you say, takes all sorts, and plenty of dross puts a litttle more gloss on our efforts - occasionally!

I thought it was you Pot M......so I did bite my lip until I could post on hearBut you are right about the wealthy misguided types,they should learn the hard and expensive way thing is most of that sort are far too arrogant to ever accept they could possibly make a mistake........after all its so easy using new stallions with "fabulous bloodlines".
I remember years ago at Doncaster a guy came up to me and gave me a leaflet it was a 'photo and the pedigree of his horse who was selling later that day,it has "fabulous bloodlines"he said "its related to 'Shergar you can't get better than that".......Oh really I replied the horse was by Cigar out of a dreg mare with not the slightest trace of black type.Later I could see him filming the thing walking around a very silent ring....no bid led out unsold,I did think of that guy last night and was wondering if the young guy I met last night was in anyway related.

O lordy, I find that sort of thing so crucially embarassing! Those types make me want to weep really because we've all started off from a place of major misguidance (like misspelling something and then putting it in bold )  and can only hope to make some correct turns on the way.

It seems that if you've worked out that you can take a yearling to Donny say, like yer man, it would be a good idea to then find out what that particular retail outlet works best for!

It's the stallion guys that can leave me flabbergasted though. You think you've got enough knowledge to physically deal with a stallion and a multitude of mare owners, yet you haven't gleaned enough to see that an unraced son of Cape Cross say, isn't going to have them beating a path!

First stallion book has hit the mat today, so I'm looking forward to all those back to front ones standing like a Hackney on a 1in3 hillside!

Just booked flights today for next week so hopefully some others on here will be catching up with some of the new crowd too, and we can all start bickering, bigtime

Are you heading off to the sun or is it a trip over here?If its here pack plenty of warm clothes else once at airport security they might call you 'miss'

That ones whizzed straight over the top Prima. Is it a reference to me being the only one to miss payday with one of my foals this year, or did you think I was turning up in a frock ( not my style, believe me) ?

I'm coming to visit you guys and see the new horses so I'm hoping some others on here will be doing the same soon enough so we can compare notes.

No I am saying its so effing cold atm it will freeze your 'trollocks' off!!!Are you going to Tally-Ho?

I'm assuming B/R is down under so I don't think so. C, Ballylinch, INS, Derrinstown and Gilltown cover the new horses I am interested in and the ones I need to catch up on.