Who will be Coolmores new sires

I would get rid of Aussie Rules but keep on to the rest of them for now.

I would think they will retire So You Think this year anyways. Treasure Beach will stay in Training. Roderic O Conner will not stand at Coolmore i be surprised if he did he is not up to much and a waste of a place on the roster. Cape Blanco as you said will be heading stateside and is a far better horse than Roderic O Conner if they wanted to keep in Ireland. Canford Cliffs obviously will retire but who knows how good a stallion he could be. I must prefer Frankel to retire with his dam side.

The rest i am not too sure. Await The Dawn career will be decided by how he goes in the Classic and it seems they are solely aiming him at one race really especially since the Americans have nothing to beat him with in reality. He stand in America we can assume. Pour Moi could be kept in training even if he wins a Arc as i would like to think they try and get a 10f Group 1 race into a Real Deal son of Montjeu. St Nicholas Abbey could be kept in training as a 5yr old if they retire Pour Moi. Not sure they want 2 son's of Montjeu retiring the same time with vastly different CV'S.

An real good situation to be in I would have thought. Danehill Dancer is getting old now and can't be many miles left on his clock.

Potential for being cut:
PEINTRE CELEBRE(getting on in years and hasn't done it)
Never quite got Strategic Prince profile for them. A quick 2yr old albeit from a talented family.

I keep Oratorio and Foosteps for a few more years. The next few years could be full now of Galileo's as they really got the good mares to him the past few years so who knows.


Darley poor Darley they are really struggling to compete even with the huge investment

Coolmore have done such a good job over the years, sucking breeders and buyers alike into the yarn that they weave. I think a little more cynicism and things don't look quite as rosy as rubyisgodinthesaddle would have us believe.

All sons of Montjeu are a difficult fit, and when you take out the precocious sons of Galileo (Teo, Frankel etc.) a Galileo retiree does not come without a large questionmark too.

In my view there is going to be a massive turnover in stallions there in the next few years as the staying Danehills are by no means guaranteed hits and they are very light on young proven sires. (infact do they really have any? HRE is, incredibly, as close as they get really given that Hurricane will always blow trickily commercially.

As Prima Donna often says. Invincible Spirit, Oasis Dream, Dansili, Dubawi and Shamardal are where it's at and Ravens Pass, Teofilo, Duke of Marmalade and maybe New Approach representing the goodwill given to youth.

Ofcourse Galileo and Montjeu are wonderful sires but with D.D. they are today's news, not tomorrows necessarily. And as we all know, tomorrow is everything in this game.

Strategic Prince, Oratorio, Footsteps must go and Choisir, High Chap and Aussie Rules are looking to be mighty tough sells for next year too. Untouchable I think.

I am with Pot M on this I'm afraid Rubisgodinthesaddle. Looking at both rosters I def think Darley are holding the strongest hand for the next few seasons.Take the top 3 from Coolmore and the roster looks decidedly weak. A clear out is needed and will surely come, that is another thing that lower fee level breeders have been stung by with that operation. To have the sire of your yearling shipped abroad with only one crop of 2yos half way through the season is not at all helpful and something that lives long in the memory.Nothing Ballydoyle have running atm likely to retire next season really grabs me tbh. Zoffany may hold some appeal at a low price but the failure of Strategic Prince will not aid his cause. A plethora of Galileo and Montjeu's of a similar mould and type are easily forgettable so the search will be on for Aidan to unearth a decent OD or IS quicksmart.

Power is OD isn't he lads.

He is indeed but much water to flow under that bridge.  I always say it in these Coolmore debates - they are (and should be) desperate to find new blood but they cant breed it or buy it in Europe. They've tried in the US before and should try again but there they face Darley holding several of the aces.  Like PD says, who wants a succession of samey Galileo's / Montjeu - particularly when the opposition has a Frankel.  They appear to be trying Australia instead but its a hard sell

Their young sire's really are only HolyRomanEmperor that has proved they can do something so far but with recent Retired animals like Mastercraftsman and Rip Van Winkle surely its not as bleak as you paint lads.

The thing about Coolmore is that they can keep replenishing the stocks....they will stand Power(By Oasis Dream) and their next best 2yr old Tenth Star and Reply are both Dansili's i think. Then you have the abundance of Galileo's etc that could be anything.

Darley are not producing anything on the track under the Sheikh Colours and he cant keep buying stallions. Rewilding will be retired to stand as a stallion but other than that?? is their much?. Casemento is gone and Dubai Prince is sadly injured and never reach his potential and thats it from the 3yr old division.

While I agree the young Stallions are with the Arabs...they have to produce it re:New Approach and Ravens Pass. Sharamdal hasn't exactly done much this year and Iffrajj has been AWOL. Dubawi however is a most impressive sire.

Watch this space!

Also Excellent Art looks okay at the moment.

I agree about Darley's production line rubyis, it really is truely dire.

They desperately need to lay off the oxygen chambers and the over working them, shipping willy-nilly and a meddlesome boss.

Their breeding and buying systems have to produce a few good horses, even though not nearly as many as it should, so they really have got to look at why they aren't nurturing them.

Either that or stallion prospects need purchasing earlier in their racing careers and leaving where they are. I always think that splashing a million here or there on a peomising colt is some of the best value in this game. Certainly much more sensible than a 500k yrlg by a stallion that they don't need to support.

Pot M that is very true, though also need to get a bit more savvy when it comes to comerciality. Why has Poets Voice not just finished his first N Hemi covering season before a trip down under?Darley could have jumped on Dubawi's popularity and stood this Gr 1 winning 3yo and Gr2 winning 2yo and annexed some of Makfis mates.Yet he was at Meydan then nothing so far. Saamidd needs a win this season then retiring. Surely Darley see an opening for a Street Cry horse here? Galileo as BM sire will be no detriment either. Slick has already noted Dream Ahead's Street Sense half bro....
I can see Acclamations on the Coolmore shopping list this year as well to complement the OD's and IS's. If they were to make a grand gesture, maybe even a Dubawi?

Who Know's where Dubai Prince could be now today.

Off the top of my head:
Dubai Prince
Casemento
Cutlass Bay
Cavalryman
Simon De Montfort
Kingsfort
Prince Bishop
Chabal

All Horses bought out of other yards and taken from Andre Fabre and got back words at a rate of knots. Who know how many of these could have stud at Stallions.... Such a shame. Just looking at Darley european roster and plenty of complete duds their. In fact the only non Darley horses that changed yards were Sharamdal. Dubawi the only Godolpin trained sire to do anything since Cape Cross as a sire. This is incredible!!!!!

Speaking of Invincible Spirit.....Coolmore have the highest priced yearling by him called Requisition out of Irish 1000 Guineas Saoire trained by Crowley i think. Has a half brother in training with Paul Cole by Giants Causeway and is a complete dud but everything the Hay's send to him are going terrible despite the spending at the sales.

Lads do you expect Sea The Stars to popular in the foal/yearling sales the next few years and will Coolmore buy his stock or will it be Darley buying everything with 4 legs from him.

i still think HRE has it too easy given given his very good quality book, Hurricane Run didnt get half as good a book and his 3year olds are very good, he was never going to be a sire of 2year olds and his 3year olds will only get better, personally i rate Hurricane a better sire than HRE on the bare bones of it. Footsteps has nothing, Steinbeck was hyped and was nothing, what else has he produced.
I think Dylan is a nice type, obv his book was covered at a much higher price (40kish) but those were the times my friends. Darley have some very nice types in the young sires dept. but both Dubawi and Sham could slow down, Ravens will be interesting, New Approach is too close to Teo that both surely can succeed.
I know both PD and potM are primarily taking a stance from  a commerical viewpoint but id like more opinions on sires as sire of good quality G1 horses regardless of their sales record (Montjeu &his sons might not be a commerical success but are still solid quality sires).
Coolmore do need quality sons of Galileo and DD and more affordable prices,

My view is i'd like to see Henrythenavigator stand in Ireland for a season regardless if his first crop will be running. I'd get rid of the likes of SP,TWYA,AR,Oratorio,FSITS. They have The Rock firing out winners as is HRE + HR so there ok for next year.I'm gone cold on Dylan Thomas there not good lookers or walkers. Leave Choisir down under. Send Await The Dawn and Cape Blanco state side. Try to stand a couple of stallions in Newmarket maybe Zoffany and ST Nic although if he wins a King George he will be popular. Jan Vermeer will end up some weird place and its a pity as i liked him. SYT has his place for next year. But remember theres Canford Cliffs and Pour Moi who will be extremely popular although i would prefer to send use CC. Treasure Beach and Roderic aren't my types so i couldnt care where they stand. They also have a high class national hunt prospect in Fame and Glory. They need something high class with Kingmambo in him TWYA was not the solution. The Duke got some good mares and i would expect him to do well even though some of the races he won where pretty poor. Excellent Art is a real looker and they seem like there runners so hopefully they do well.

Welcome back Rip. Have you been on your yacht in some exotic clime?

Please don't spoil that image by saying you've just been busy foaling the last of the N.H. mares!

It seems that Darley are chasing the glory days when they got it right with their older horses, campaigned them well and didn't entirely ruin their commercial appeal. With Godolphin seemingly permanently in A&E they really have to stand a horse when they can and look to get the globetrotting operation back on track by practising with the lesser lights.

I feel that Coolmore would have a crack at Darley sires if they suited, after all a Singspiel, Cape Cross spring to mind recently and ofcourse an easing of relations could help them massively.
However they are slightly stuck between a rock and a hard place as a Dubawi that passes their exacting physical requirements doesn't come along that often and when such a colt does, well you can hardly blame them from not wanting to get in a fight with you know who for it. After all, they lose the fight and Darley get massive publicity by way of the sale price and the fact that Coolmore had a crack in he first place.

I hope that Acclamation does make the grand shopping lists this year, but I'm not so sure, however I'm happy to point them in the direction of a suitable purchasing opportunity

This is incredible!!!!!
Rubyis, how right you are!

I can see Coolmore having a crack at the sharper Sea The Stars foals. But the competition is going to be fierce for sure. It will be interesting to see how Qatar chooses to play at the youngstock sales as they must be feeling quite confident with the start they've made in the game.

DMCK, I do attempt to evaluate sires from a results standpoint and would agree with you that Hurricane Run has made a good start. Apologies if it appears I always come at it from a commercial standpoint but we often seem to drift that way on here for sure. Just as a point of balance, Shirocco seems to be getting some similar results! And I would guess that H.R. probably got significantly better mates.

P.s. Rip, why the Kingmambo passion right now?

Lots of fair point in thread but I'd suggest a little harsh on Darley - they are unashamedly a global operation and should be judged in totality.  It may well be a bad reflection on Godolphin UK but 'Darley' are hot right now in the US (THE biggest market by any measure).  Hard Spun probably first crop champ. Bernardini 2nd crop champ, Street Cry / Medaglio / Elusive Quality / Any Given Saturday.  And note these all go to Aus and in my opinion its only a matter or time until a very good one gets thrown up in Europe (Carlton House excepted lol.)  Coolmore will be throwing good mares at Lookin at Lucky hoping to get something going on a different line - I also dont know why they dont get HTN back, very nice but I presume being out of SW mare is the prob.

Yes indeed Yer ma. And it occurs to me, why do they run  the U.S operation along the lines that would suit so well over here? Why do those U.S. colts not get sucked into Godolphin? I'd have thought Sheikh Mo would like nothing more than to prove he could turn a dirt performer into a worldwide turfer!! Presumably another indictment on their soundness is one reason.

What Kingmambo!You all seem to want a son of his.........why I'm going to ask,are you all so blind to his limitations as a sire of sires?About the best son of his this side of the pond is Kings Best that says it all really,imo Kingmambo is a 'secret' stamina sire a stallion who's stock tent to want a trip and they often want time to mature as well.
Commercially yes I can see why they want one but the sad fact is now they are about 5 years too late,Green Desert is where its at now and we all know where he stood.......Coolmore talk about missing the boat!Though Juddmonte once more have the last laugh as the have the best young stallion son of Danehill,Green Desert and now the best son of Kings Best.

both are very strong still with there sires but the most interesting thing in the future will be who will lead these 2 massive complex operations into the future.how many owners have coolmore got and will they all agree in the future or even want to be in the business against darley who have one leader.also as world players they might move more resources to other regions with the ups and downs off the business.

One of our mares needs to go to a Kingmambo stallion as her page has got a big reason to go to one over the last year so hopefully one will stand soon. She's not going to Kings Best and probably will not go to Workforce either, but a high class 2 year old and a top miler at 3 Henrythenavigator would be the right choice, he suits her so much so hopefully he will relocate. He would be very commercial aswell. I thought you would be a big fan PD of a Coventry winner who then won 2 Guineas and second in a BC Classic who is so well bred.

I love Kingmambo and his dam was an all time favourite of mine, she could do no wrong.

However I don't want to use one of his sons thank you. I agree that H the N is probably the best shot mind. What about sending your mare over Rip? He'll be 3rd season and you might get a years board thrown in?

Prima, have you had unfortunate experiences with the son of the great mare?

Rip Van, Yes I do like HTN he has an impressive page and race record. I can see that he would hold appeal over here.Personally though I am always cautious of Kingmambo as he does get staying types. Add to this that HTN dam is by SW they may not be as early as the sire.
Pot M we haven't had any  unfortunate experiences with Kingmambo as we are very aware of his stamina disposition. Therefore any mare that we may have used with him have always had a propensity to get sharper types.this awareness is essential to use Kingmambo to his best advantage.Though like you I am not falling over myself for a son of his.Thoughts of his Grp 2yo, Gr1 miler son who is now a NH sire are fresh in the memory.

Sorry to deviate from the current Kingmambo thing but going back a bit I'm a little shocked by how quick some on here are for getting rid of Strategic Prince.  Granted he hasn't taken the world by storm but he's had just 22 runners (according to the Racing Post) but according to my info he covered 157 mares in 08 so I think we need to give him a bit more time.

The other one that people want to chuck out that I think is a little harsh is Aussie Rules.  He has 14 runners with an RPR of over 90 off an initial 15K fee then 12.5K second season.  To put that in context Kodiac has 7 off a 5K fee both years & Iffraaj has 15 off a 12K fee both years.  In 2009 Aussie Rules had 81 foals on the ground, Kodiac covered 103 mares in 2008 & Iffraaj had 110 foals in 2009. I don't have figures for 2010 I'm afraid.

According to the Racing Post Aussie Rules had 25 individual winners, Kodiac has 27 and Iffraaj has 48.

I know he probably got better mares but he got less than both Kodiac & Iffraaj and in my opinion I think he's done alright. 

I would consider using him too as my mare's best progency was by a Danehill stallion (Danetime) and she has bred a winner by Alzao too (Aussie Rules' Dam sire).   Fee wise we are getting into my territory too.

Mind you if bad perception (among the B&B forum at least) = bad commercially then I suppose he's doomed which I think is a shame.

We've used both you mention PP and we got nice sorts and sold some in foal to them as well, but they where hard to sell and that is where the downfall with them is. I wish i had listened to PD about Strategic Prince as they can be big out of him so maybe his can make nice 3 year olds.

PD Dubai Destination was not a patch on Henrythenavigator on the track and Henry is from a lovely family.

Potm for us sending her over commercially would be the right move but it is expensive and that is why were hoping he'll move to Ireland otherwise we will just have to try and find something like him.

Yeah HTN was a lot better on the racetrack than Dubai Destination Rip Van,but its not as though DD is from a moderate or slow family,mind you both have BM sires that are a source of stamina.
If you have the right mare for a son of Kingmambo then why not use one if somethings come up on the mares page but have in the back of your mind that regardless of how precocious the pedigree is using a son of KB you may not get what you may of felt certain you'd get,it may surprise you but from experience not me!

they could hardly bring HTN to Ireland for 1year it would outrage their american customers, same as if they sent RVW to kentucky next year, maybe they could bring him to ireland for a year after he has 2 crops running regardless of success. I think another Giants Causeway runner could do their roster no harm but they dont have many if any in training this side of the atlantic, Footssteps needs to go, maybe im being hasty on Aussie Rules as for his fee he isnt a total flop but likewise they could support him more with a few runners to Stack&Wachman. Also the Rock needs a bit more love and support from Coolmore i know he hasnt been the success that was hoped for but he get his share of winners and maybe as this year has shown aim to produce sprinting types from him.
The Kingmambo conumdrum is a challenging one alright, maybe master of hounds could be your solution rip van, not near as good as HTN but similar in a way and both out of a saddlers mare, but the way he has being campaigned the states looks like his destination should he prove good enough,

I may have to take Treasure Beach out of the equation unless they want to stand a Galileo for a small fee.

I Think Recital is the only one from the Middle Distance crop that has any sort of scope to go onto great things as a older horse. The classic crop becoming exposed now. Pour Moi aside.

That race against Banuimpire in the Ballysax doesn't look too bad now I suppose, clutching at straws though. Its all about Camelot now

Indeed Camelot a early Montjeu Type....

Do I hear Guineas 2012...HMMM

Wading and Father Of Science,thats all ill say [;)]

Am I alone in finding it deeply depressing that quality Grp 1 performers are being used as Pacemakers and animals that would be nurtured elsewhere are having careers blighted in the name of the great Coolemore business machine?

Cape Blanco being used as a pacemaker at Ascot and then sent to the Man o War as an afterthought to keep him away from others in Europe - AOB said so as much in interview after the USA race...

In addition, it's the constant MOUTHING off and hyping of horses that drives me spare... and, I fear, It has spread to the Hannons via Coolemore's stake in Canford Cliffs - the talking down of Frankel by Hannon Junior to the press was, IMVHO, disgraceful - it's one thing to hype your own horse but VERY poor form to offer a less than objective (read negative) opinion of another's. The likes of PKA and the AGA and SHC etc have always allowed their HORSES to do the talkiing and I, for one, am PIG SICK of the Coolemore motor mouth and the volume business they are - the OLD fashioned breeders, the Rothschilds, Weinstocks, Aga Khan, PKA etc will always have a much dearer place in my heart

JMVHO from the outside - I logged on here to read the threads about Frankel's breeding - so you don't need to go all statistical and technical on me... and just appreciate the over-all drift of my sentiment, whether you agree or not! [:p]

Somerset_Moan
19 Jul 11 13:03 Joined: 30 Aug 10 | Topic/replies: 840
Cape Blanco being used as a pacemaker at Ascot

How did you Work that one out??
Given it's Now owned by Mrs Fitri Hay

Do we know exactly what percentage of the horses running in their colours at Ballydoyle the Hays have purchased?

I am sure they are very welcome at Ballydoyle and I suspect they will be well looked after.

However, their presence will not be allowed to derail the Coolmore machine OTS, their time will come and they'll get to visit the well I'm sure, but only as part of the general sceme (the dark blue one!)

potentialmillionaire,when you put it like that you could well be correct.i'd like to think you're not however,because it's not very professional if it is true

OnTheSnaff,
They are know as the 'Mafia'...........its not for nothing you know.I think Pot m is correct!

The Hay's don't even own the majority interest in those 2 horses that Coolmore do not want in reality to stand as Flat Sire's in Europe.

The ownership issue seems that they own around 40% of both horse's I would have thought

On the issue of Group 1 Animals being used as pacemakers well that is not true in reality as those horses are unable to win Group 1s and being sacraficed while they are at that stable.

The hyping of horses is a bizarre as they market they are aiming don't even listen to the remarks. I not sure what they are thinking. Hannons have always had opinions so i don't think they are being influenced. I remember strong suit was being hyped to the rooftops.

Cape Blanco - 'look, he really doesnt have such natural speed Richi' - is a 10f horse who hasnt and wont win a decent race at 8f or 12f and Coolmore know that so why run it? (CC wins beating mutliple Grp1 winners...) Please dont mention the Irish Derby.  The ownership issue is interesting as clearly in US / France they couple runners but I dont know on what basis - mind you theyve got pacemakers in Treasure Beach and Seville for the Arc anyway

it strikes me as very odd the use of G1 performers as pacemakers. Jan Vanemeer in particular. i understood that the mafia did good business with selling lesser G1 Horses to Mick DeKock among others. but using a G1 2yr old and derby fav as a pacemakers seems incredilious seeing as AOB said he had put him away last year after "making a mess of him". i for one expected big things of JV. But Seville in the KG also strikes the question that if the pace ignore the pacemaker said horse can make it all on his own and possibly steal the race im sure its something thats struck AOB from such horses as At First Sight and Grand Ducal in the 2009 Arc. if he had employed this tactics with a better horse on these occasions he could have possibly nicked these races and im sure he will soon but at what expense?
i think Cape blanco is being messed around and is horse i would personally rate above rip van winkle and could dp better than him at stud.

I think the Rip is a much better horse than CB and much better than we ever got to see, he had bad feet and was tough to train.

Watch his two runs in the Sussex Stakes in 09' and 10'. That 09' performance was devastating and he gave both Canford Cliffs (apart from Guineas where Hughes **** up on him) and STS the hardest races of their career.

The percieved hype about him set the public against him, but he was a top, top class horse, it is all in the form book.

His damside is weak so I don't know what he will be like as a stallion prospect, and I think i remember PM saying he looked like a 1m4f horse to the eye.

But anyway, I just thought he was a fine racehorse who never quite got the credit he deserved.

If people do think that Rip was a 1m4f horse that does show how good he was to win 2 group 1's at a mile. I hear every day about the dam side of this stallion and that stallion but i sometimes think maybe two much notice is given to it and not enough to the actual animal himself and how he raced. Dont get me wrong i would prefer if he had a better page but they all cant have top pages so sometimes it has to be looked passed to get into a good one early.

I think what there doing with Cape Blanco now is right but running him over a mile at Ascot was wrong.

I saw Canford Cliffs on TV yesterday and how they had him so forward for the coventry was beyond me, he looked quite leggy to me, narrowish, but very elegant and athletic looking horse. I'd say the best mile and a quarter horse in Europe is CC, but he might not get to show it.

I saw Frankel just after and he looked a real brute, a kind of blocky looking and precocious horse, a real ball of muscle, but still classy looking. Powereful looking more like, but I suppose Gallileo looked fairly robust himself. Frankel looked to me like a horse that would thrive on racing.

Is it completely beyond the realms of possibility that Nathaniel could stand at Stud for Coolmore??...


Hmmm

Yes.

They need no Galileos over what they produce themselves and he's a galloper with no 2yo form. He's a big headache stallion wise.

Poor old National Stud might get the gig. . .

I do wonder would Henrythenavigtor make a few trips across the Atlantic.

Had a luck at some of the sales as foals and 450k,310k.120k,100k stateside.

Would any of you lads use him for 25k(euro)??

I'd have thought he'd be a bit more than that myself.

I think he around 35k Dollars so reasonable enough 25k i would have thought. Their slashing their fee's so i you bring him over you wouldn't want to price him too high and get a small book.

Oh right didn't know

not a bad day for coolmore today!