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23 Jun 11 23:09
Date Joined: 03 Sep 05
| Topic/replies: 29 | Blogger: jamesiec's blog
I have just had a nightmare of a day at Tattersalls today.  Despite my horse a 4yo gelding by Milan, (I can be accused of bias but he was a smashing type and very correct) passing a vets examination twice and two scopes for his wind which both showed up clean, because the vet during the second examination heard a 'noise', this was included in the auctioneers comments as he entered the ring. I forget the exacts comments made but he really went to town so much that prospective purchasers were really put off and he didnt reach his reserve leading me to sell him outside the ring for €8,500. To add insult to injury his half brother by Oscar made €25,000 directly before him in the ring and he wasnt half the horse. To be honest, I really feel that he was treated unfairly, that the vet should have either passed him or failed him in his examination and not included such negative comments as he did as an after thought. I refused to sell him for €15,000 last year as a 3yo (as he needed a year to grow into his frame and strengthen up) when he again passed the veteninary examination and scoping process. Someone has got a bargain. Me, I am very disillusioned.
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Report yer ma June 24, 2011 1:09 PM BST
I'd of blown my top.  Vets tend to have overly high opinions of themselves and should be questioned at every step - your horse will (or should) have been given a wind test score 1-5. That info is privy to the buyer getting the vetting.  'Noises' are subjective and may or may not mean anything and if you were confident the horse has no issues (and wouldnt be sent back because of them) then the auctioneer has no right to declare what you havent agreed.  Small vendor syndrome I'm afraid, if you are a big consignor then different rules.
Report June 24, 2011 2:54 PM BST

I can be the boring one on this forum, who whilst passionate about horses and bloodstock, has a background in numbers and detail.

I would suggest you ask Tatts where in the contract of sale the "Auctioneer" can make a comment about an informal remark made by a third party (in this case the Vet)in his/her summary that contradicts the official Vet record. If they cannot show you the clause ask for the differential between the price you achieved outside the ring and that of the Oscar/Milan comparison, bearing in mind the same Dam.
Report jamesiec June 24, 2011 7:28 PM BST
Thanks for the replies lads. I'm going to try and get a copy of the vets report from Tattersalls to see exactly what it says. I'm also going to look through the 'conditions of sale' section in the catalogue. I will post back next week with any updates I may have.
Report potentialmillionaire June 24, 2011 7:37 PM BST
I'm probably being a bit thick too jamesiec.

Are these stores subject to a veterinary examination prior to sale by the sales co. ?
If so, and that was their findings then obviously you have to put up and shut up I'm afraid.
Do the sales company really require two such inspections?

If the inspection was on behalf of a potential buyer, then how the hell did it get into the public domain? A blabber mouth agent/trainer/vet deserves shooting.

Sorry if I'm way off message here, not the 1st time, but good luck.
Report jamesiec June 24, 2011 9:57 PM BST
Hi potentialmillionare,

Vendors must produce a veterinary certificate along with the horse in question prior to the sale for re-examination. The findings of the vendors veterinary cert together with the results of re-examination are announced by the auctioneer in the ring.I do not dispute what the rules and regulations involved are, its just the fairness of the system that I have an issue with. Either a horse is clean or not and fit for sale or not. Anyway, I hope to see the vets report so I can see extent of what was included in the report.
I am biased, having a horse for three years and all that goes with it does that to you! but still feel a little aggrieved. Its the system that operates and you have to play by the rules I suppose, in the future I could hit the jackpot...karma maybe...
Report potentialmillionaire June 24, 2011 10:13 PM BST
Thanks for that Jamiesiec. It was kind of you to clarify that for me when I don't suppose you feel too great.

We all need a bit of Karma in this game and I daresay your horse will be Grade 3 level at the very least! As you say we have a massive emotional investment with these animals and a good day at the office you most certainly have not had.

Your turn for the next bit of good luck going spare. Grin
Report Beauchamp-Gigi June 24, 2011 10:48 PM BST
You think your hard done by but you are rid of him.
I have a 4 year old and a 3 year old by Milan both of them are rotten with their wind. They cost me fortunes as foals, where pampered for the last 3 years and now their worth 300 each. So i've done in 40k.
I listened to those so called expert agents at the time and now I'am ruined.
By god I have enough of Milan. Over 300 mares a year he got and not much to show for it.
Report potentialmillionaire June 24, 2011 11:29 PM BST
A cautionary tale indeed Beauchamp-Gigi.

Hopefully 3 years down the line and you are better equipped to prevent such an experience again.
Relying on an agent is just too fraught with danger. Unless ofcourse you like buying them champagne and can afford to lose a packet.

Mind you if your lucks out, it's out and I too have all but forgotten my last fleeting moment in the sun. Cry
Report weesammy June 25, 2011 5:39 PM BST
Sorry to hear your ordeal Jamesiec.....i'm afraid you had not passed the sale vet if your horse made a noise!The only thing that is better than making a noise and scoping wrong is making a noise and scoping right but that is a good bit away from two clean certs !
Report revedesivola June 26, 2011 12:32 AM BST
a difficult situation, you have my sympathy.

few qs...
are the sales company liable if problems such as wind or any other abnormalities are discovered and werent mentioned before the sales, or is it about trying to uphold a good reputation?

did the auctioneer mention that the problem is unlikely to prejudice the animal for racing purposes?
Report June 26, 2011 9:52 AM BST

As you lot was in the Derby Sale it had to be offered "For Sale with a Vendors Veterinary Certificate". You must have presented your own "Vendors Veterinary Certificate" to Tatts. Your lot was then reinspected by the Tatts appointed Vet under Standard Clause 9.1.

Were you at any time prior to your lot entering the ring advised that the Tatts vet report differed from that of your "Veterinary Certificate" to enable you to withdraw the horse from the sale?
Report jamesiec June 26, 2011 12:23 PM BST
Thanks for comments lads. I am going to ring tomorrow to see if I can get a copy of the vets report, just for my own information if nothing else. Equimine, all required veterinary certs were submitted.  I read the conditions of sale to the front of the sales book also and while not disputing what it contains in relation to the veterinary certificates, as I said before personally, it would be fairer if a horse was declared either fit for sale or not, without conditions or stipulations. On the day of the sale, the consignor (person who prepared horse for sale) informed me that the vet had noticed a noise but following a scope the horse was ok. I was not informed by the sales company that there was a problem. Revedesivola, from what I remember the auctioneer did say it would not prejudice the horse from racing. It was enough of a showstopper all the same.
All I can do is draw a line through it and move on. Sympathies to beauchamp gigi over his two Milans, hopefully you get a change of luck soon.
Report BI June 27, 2011 2:59 PM BST

I'm confused. In your original post you say the auctioneer "went to town" on the noise. Yet in your last post you say the autioneer said it was not prejudicial to the horse's use for racing. Generally, auctioneers will read verbatim from the vet report. It's not in their interests to say any more or less.

It is your responsibility to check out the veterinary form which is in the sales office and open to inspection by all. I always check the certs myself, as the auctioneers may miss something. If the Tatts vet finds the horse makes a noise, it should be referred to the panel of vets for further review. if another panel vet finds the same issue, then it is sent for a scope to check for paralysis of the larynx. This happened a Pilsudski which went out without a bid. It is hard enough buying horses without taking a chance on one with a wind problem. In the boom years, lads used to pay €30k for horses with wind problems. You won't get that now.

You have seven days from point of sale to return your horse. We bought a horse at the Land Rover sale with two clean certs. Then found he was a wind sucker. Sent him back. Bought another horse at the Derby sale that won four races. Happy days.
Report potentialmillionaire June 27, 2011 8:09 PM BST
BI, I'm slightly confused by your post. It seems to be coming from the angle of a buyer - for part of the time.

Your description of the Tatts vetting seems to be the Post sales vetting - not an issue here.

The seven day return period, is that not for vices only? Not connected with wind issues surely, certainly windsucking has no connection with this topic?
Report June 28, 2011 7:21 AM BST

You are correct the 7 day period only covers "Description & Health" issues under the main T&C conditions 10.
Report BI June 28, 2011 10:22 AM BST
I wasn't trying to be confusing. The T&Cs include specific pieces on declaring a horse a crib biter, wind sucker or box walker before the sale. A buyer can return the horse within 7 days if either of these events arise and can be proven and were not declared at point of sale. This was just a throw away last paragraph.

My main point on the checking the vets cert is that the SELLER, as well as the buyer, should check the vets cert before the sale begins. If the horse makes a noise, it should be sent for a second opinion and if that second opinion still considers there is a noise, the seller should get a scope of the larynx.

There was another horse at the sales where the auctioneer clearly stated that the Tatts vet heard a noise, it was sent to the panel and a second opinion confirmed the existence of a noise, the horse was then scoped and it was found the horse did not suffer from paralysis of the larynx. So from a buyers perspective, there is some comfort so the horse should sell better than if the scope was not done at all. But the seller went through all the procedures available to them to prove the horse did not have paralysis. That was main point, there are steps available to a seller and ultimately, they can withdraw their lot if they are not happy.
Report June 28, 2011 10:38 AM BST

I note your comments.
I believe in all honesty that is should bethe responsibility of the auction house to advise any vendor that their Vet report differs from the vendors' report.
The T&Cs of the Derby Sale actually state the Tatts Vet Report is available to "prospective purchasers" and that the purchaser will pay for said report.
Report BI June 28, 2011 1:53 PM BST
we are both right, it just comes down to which side of the fence you fall. I have sold at the sales and the buck stopped with me to ensure everything was done right. I am sympathetic to the situation and it is a lesson learned the hard way. I'd agree that the auction house should do their best to inform the vendor. without a vendor and a buyer, the auction house is at nothing really. So in their interests to keep everyone happy.

The Tatts report is available in the sales office, in a bundle with further support available on request, and you have an hour after the sale to request another Tatts examination on top of the Tatts examination pre-sale which the vendor has paid for.
Report BI June 30, 2011 2:56 PM BST
How'd you get on Jamesie?
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