The Montjeu paradox

Well Pistol_Packer, I'm quite sure I don't qualify as a 'proper' breeder, but when you post on here you open yourself up to all types of gobsh1tes so here I am.

I seems to me that you are pretty close to the mark with Montjeu.

I think his ability as a sire is absolutley rock solid. He does what he does with amazing consistency and as a Derby sire he is obviously incredible. It took Sadlers a long time to establish himself as a proper sire of sires so I am hopeful that Montjeu might get there as Sadlers was probably tarred with a similar brush when it came to perceptions on that front.

He does get proper 2yo's though - obviously not in June - but 6f races are not the ones that real racing folk want to win anyway.
Negatives include the fact that they are not the most straightforward in the head and that is perhaps why his fillies are no where near as successful as his colts.

What he brings to the racecourse though should be fought for and I suspect before the end of his career breeders will have found some way of forging a lasting legacy for him.

Thank you for your considered response pm. I think you have hit on another paradox in breeding, that is nothing in flat racing creates as much as excitement as races like the Derby, Arc, Gold Cup, exactly the races Montjeu is so good at getting winners of, yet a lot of breeders seem obsessed with producing sprint winners and that division seems to be just ex handicappers taking turns to win the big races

I was thinking about exactly the same races as I wrote Pistol!

The total joy from Michael Owen with his winner was fantastic to behold. As you say if that horse was a sprinter, he would just be waiting his turn in a handicap as the Gp 1 sprints are so often won by a well (expensively) bred horse that happens to be quick enough anyway.

Shirocco is an interesting case. A simply glorious looking horse he is now compiling an eye catching record, but where will he sit?

Does anyone think he might have to go back before he goes forward?, if there are speedier types getting the best mares but not winning Derbys, maybe it will all come back to him and put people in mind to value him for what he is.

amazing Ballydoyle haven't had a Derby winner in so long really, so many seconds, so many bullets

Funny another paradox in a way, i could see him siring another 3 derby winners and the same number of Arc winners without throwing up a 'great' like a frankel or a STS, suppose thats too much to ask of a sire anyway. Suppose it is the price to pay playing second fiddle to Gallileo.

His most fondly remembered 'public' horse in these shores might well be Hurricane Fly.

Neill d - And another thing! I think one of Montjeu's best chances of a decent stallion son is with Authorized - a nice looker from good family of Green Dancer, Makfi etc and had the speed to win Gr1s over 1m2f - but he could suffer, and in turn Montjeu's reputation could suffer, because Coolmore won't support the Darley sires with the brilliant mares they have at their disposal.

Potentialmillionaire - I put Monsun in a similar category to Montjeu, brilliant middle distance sire but will rely on owner/breeders with plenty of cash and patience like Michael Owen to launch his stallion sons

Authorized would have gone close in his Guineas imo

Authorized would have gone close in his Guineas imo

You couldnt say that about many Montjeus

Personally doubt Authorized would of won the English 2000,and come to think of it don't really think he's going to be a great success at stud.Montjeu has shown he is about the best stallion to upgrade his mares,all the time he is compared to Galileo,BUT if you look at the numbers and the quality of mares sent to Galileo mares from the best family's and mares of all trips is it any wonder he is so successful and regarded as the better sire of the two?But take a look under the gloss and you will see that Montjeu is the better sire to upgrade the stock out of his lesser mares,Galileo doesn't seem to do this.plenty now think its unlikely Montjeu will get a GR1 miler but he has covered some decent mares in the last couple of years so with a bit of luck(everyone needs this now and again)breeders perceptions of him as a versatile stallion might just change........a change for the better you could say.As a sire of sires I feel Montjeu will have to wait a while because its hard enough anyway to succeed in that field coupled with young stallions (sons of Montjeu) who themselves have been good runners but come from moderate family's,hoping he can get you a good runner is one thing from a middle market mare but expecting him to then upgrade that family into a 'producing' one is virtually impossible.As an example of this think back to the great stallion Danehill Dancer its only in the last year or two that peoples views about him as a sire of sires have started to change,he like Montjeu was able to upgrade his dross mares runners but when these colts went to stud MOST have been moderate.IMO Montjeu will show us like Danehill Dancer and Galileo that he too will become a great sire of sires...........but not just yet!

PD,

Would you expand on how DD and Galileo are "great sire of sires", or was the remark tongue in cheek which I have missed?

No Equimine.co.uk,it is not tongue in cheek and you haven't missed anything,my point regarding Danehill Dancer and Galileo is,with Galileo yes its really too early to rate him as a great sire of sires but when we consider the family's of the mares he gets its highly likely he will become one.Danehill Dancer is now getting a better reputation as a sire of sires(two of his sons produced GR1 winners last year) again with his mares over the last few years he will almost certainly enhance himself in that field.With Regards Montjeu as a sire of sires my point was that with his mares (moderate compared to Galileo) early sons now at stud are from lesser family's most successful producing stallions are from very good family's,Dansili for example along with Oasis Dream this is where I think Galileo will become a great sire of sires.Both Danehill Dancer and Montjeu have become somewhat unexpectedly better sires than was hoped for at the start,both getting top level mares from producing family's lately they too can become great sire of sires.

I mean close perhaps not win, but if him and Vital Equine raced in a match over a mile, I'd be on Authorized, thats all I meant really. The Duke wasn't right at the time and bar the winner, it was a poor enough renewal.

Frankel will surely tell a lot with the quality of mares he is going to get. I think Montjeu will sire a Gr 1 miler at some stage in the relatively near future. Slow horses don't win the Derby imo. Motivator is another example, I'm not sure he even truly got 1m4f, he's another I'd have thought would have nearly placed in a Guineas.

Its hard to win a Group 1 at a mile when most of the Montjeu stock who might have the class to do it all wind up running in the Dante. That is a stiff old mile at Newmarket[;)] The Curragh is another stiff track, surely its not inconceivable that Montjeu couldn't throw up something to beat a Roderic O'Conner or Dubawi Gold. Coolmore must be of a mind to sort it out now.

To summarise, his horses aren't campaigned like 'quality' horses but like stayers.

I'm enjoying this one lads! Got to go and feed now but will flex my fingers whilst out!!!

Coolmore must be of a mind to sort it out now.

To summarise, his horses aren't campaigned like 'quality' horses but like stayers.


Very true neil d. But they lost their nerve with SNA and overtrainied him, falling for the trap of thinking a Montjeu would be a bit too 'slow' for a GNS. IMO if SW and Galileo can get a GNS winner then there is no reason at all why Montjeu cant, other than the impression he is a Derby sire through and through.

Pedigrees come and go don't they. Montjeu's and Danehill Dancer's is so so on the brilliance front and Pivotal's is virtually non existent! I wonder just how much bearing it has on a stallion's potential - versus the degree of opportunity that is afforded to the stallion that is seen as 'well bred'

Dansili and Oasis Dream are from pedigree's that only look good recently, (and how!) there isn't great age and depth to them. I suspect the dominance of a potential stallions sire could out weigh a ropey page a la N.D. and Danzig perhaps.

Slick'n'Smooth would as always be a great incite into pedigrees Prima if she can be plundered for info over the Kedgeree at breakfast How much of your success comes from her families with you from the outset and how many of your families are on a constant cycle of exit and replacement?

Just thinking about Galileo and the opportunities afforded him, can we really hazard a guess as to just how good he really is. In the old days when the super sires covered smaller books the select few fired at around 15% stakes winners to foals. G is probably covering 175 of the top 500 mares in the world right now. He should be supplying 20 s.w. per crop not year, and I don't think expecting 5+ Gp 1 winners a year is unreasonable.

I think that the Montjeu with ability to perform at less than 1 1/2 miles is going to be crucial to his chances as a s of s as that is the only type that will be given the opportunity. However that may prove to be weakening his immense strengths perhaps. Sadlers succeeded best with In The Wings, Montjeu and Galileo. By some margin his best sires and by some margin representing his usual traits. (Only their immense talent getting them out at 2 and a ton of stamina through and through)

I certainly would be wary of a Montjeu miler!

Although as a 1st season gamble - well that's a different matter maybe

would u use a son off montjeu or not and if u did which one and why?

Wd be interested to hear why Prima Donna is dismissive of Authorized as sire. Not saying I disagree, but as I said earlier in post he was top-class over 10 & 12f, and he is from a family of success strecthing back many generations (tho I daresay Saumarez so close up won't do it for everyone ).

PotM hits one of the Montjeu problems on the head for me. Even if he does get a speedier type now, wd breeders think of him as atypical of his sire and shun him??

Also agree with Prima Donna on St Nicholas abbey. Because we had such high hopes for him we viewed his 2000 Guineas 6th as a major flop - but it wasn't really that bad, he was only beaten 3 and a half lengths in what turned out to be a better renewal than we thought on the day, with the first four all winning Group 1s.  Shame they didn't persevere with a mile or a bit further with St Nick this season instead of making him look a national hunt sire in waiting.

Pistol Packer,
Yes I too agree that Authorized was top class he has a similar profile to Motivator but was imo a better runner than him,but as you may know from some of my earlier posts I am not a fan of Rainbow Quest and as you point out Authorized is out of a mare by Saumarez a son of Rainbow Quest a major ingredient for unsoundness and stock that need plenty of time to mature,then add in that he stands with Darley and the high chance they have used him on stoutly bred mares(they have these in abundance)I doubt he is going to get anything of note early on in his career.Looking at his stock at the sales last year none looked to me to be the sort who you would expect to be out sooner rather than later.
Sadly I suppose we live in an age where stallions need to hit the ground running with their first runners if they don't then breeders shy off them pretty quick just think how Motivator has almost dropped off that proverbial cliff,Like Authorized he was regarded as a good Derby winner and so plenty of high class breeders used him but he to date has been nothing more than disappointing to say the least and for him the fact his dam is by Gone West who is imo a far more attractive prospect than the useless Saumarez only compounds my view that Authorized will be no more successful in his new job than Motivator.A shame really for them both as they were top class on the racetrack but in the bloodstock world breeders certainly commercial ones are not known for being sentimental we tend to have very short memory's once bitten by a sire it needs a hell of a lot of confidence to use the same again or the very same sort by the same sire,we ourselves bred a top class runner a multiple GR1 winner by a very good stallion but he was no good at stud and has stood almost everywhere but has got nothing of note,a few years later the sire of that horse had another outstanding runner from the same cross but breeders were put off by the fact the other stallion had been a flop they had no time for the new sire and gave him the thumbs down from the start.I think Authorized will suffer the same view from breeders ones who used Motivator,his failings will be fresh in commercial breeders minds.He may yet do it but imo at best he will be an OB type.

Thanks for your considered reply, PD, seems like you have Authorized's measure. I could still see him getting the sort of Gr1 winner that will do nothing to help his popularity, an Italian Derby or Leger winner maybe, a la Sulamani

Pistol I agree with all of that,wonder if Authorized will ultimately head down the same stud route as Sulamani?

It's a suprising stat that Montjeu still hasn't sired a British Guineas winner. But then it did take Sadlers Wells some time to make his mark as a sire of sires. Maybe he needs an injection of speed and to get some more of these high calibre Danehill mares that Gallieo seems to be getting at present ?

I wonder how many Danehill mares he does get BSB.

A stronger hind leg to improve Montjeu's and a more quality shoulder to refine Danehills. Perfect. But surely it's been tried?

Pot M Slick is in France atm,just in case you are wondering why she has not replied to you.

Don't worry Prima, I don't expect her to answer but thought if you ever get chance to ask her I'd love to know your ratios of old families to new.

Incidentally, I think you are very lucky that she spends any time with you in Ireland atall, all those Boulangeries, Charcuteries and Patissieries. . . . and for you the Calvados and Vineyards . . .

Does she need a houseboy?

Pot M,I will see if Slick wants a new little 'houseboy' but remember she still has this 'old'one right nowand what would Mrs Millionaire say about your new job? And yeah I should feel lucky she spends some time with me,but not as lucky as she is with me spending time with her!!!
And I get the impression you too love France or at least the 'gastronomique' delights they offer,its about my favourite country I love spending time there,but if I did I reckon I'd be about the size of an elephant and all the time pi$$ed as a rat.Calvados lovely but only an occasional thing French red wine mind now your talking!
I will get Slick to reply when she returns.

You're right I love it and I can spin a few sentences together - the only other language I can attempt - funnily enough I've been wondering over the last few days about having a little go at the tunnel as I've not tried it before. Seems like a very civilised idea to arrive at St Pancras for a cocktail or two!

I think perhaps that I was being a little unrealistic in my ambitions for a position in the Slick'n'Smooth empire, I think 'faithful old retainer' is probably nearer the mark

If I were you I'd get a holiday in now before the sales season looms,never been in the tunnel as we fly almost everywhere,but I am tempted to drive down south sometime,we have a little house in the Langadoc Rusillion region its fabulous and we have vineyards all around us,and the local women are truly beautiful..........tanned skin black hair with those dark mesmerising eyes,don't get me started as now I think I might join Slick and head off south for a break.Talking of the women down there the one who runs the local Boulangerie is a very sexy lady indeed and is very naughty we always have a laugh together,I love French women mind saying that the Greeks not bad either![;)]

I reckon you've earned your right to the good things, if only for keeping us in check on here!

But as you say, you can talk yourself into anything. I'll dig out those maps. . .

Incidentally I've never been anywhere Greek. High on my list of things to put right, I guess you've managed to make some good decisions on that front ![;)]

i must say i am rather enjoying the mafia'a attempt to get a sprint win into Eagle Canyon, tried at 5F and 6F. Seems a poor attempt to register a sprint win to boost his stats. Frankly they are doing a disjustice to the horse for the pure reason that High Chap or the all conquering Galileo find it hard to sire a 3yr 5/6f horse, a mile would have to be the lowest these well breed sons of saddlers can get?

That good handicap winner the other day HIGH TWELVE has an interesting pedigree...

by Montjeu ex Much Faster, a Robert Papin winner by Fasliyev.

Even with that speedy damside Montjeu manages to "drag" High Twelve up to a 1m-1m 2f winner. Yes DMCK Eagle Canyon v. interesting campaign - hope owners wouldnt be so cynical to mismanage a horse's career to massage sire stats. They should just relish standing the best pure middle distance-staying stallion around and I'm sure they do as the Derby is obviously their priority race and u can see how much pure enjoyment they get out of winning the Ascot Gold Cup

I agree Pistol.

I suppose whomever devised that mating was thinking first and foremost about inbreeding to Special or some such. In my mind that would be the only reason to try the experiment as it is just too much about extremes for me.

Prima donna always says on here that most matings result in offspring that follow the distance traits of the female line and if you make a change then there is still the probability that the next generation will revert. ( I think I paraphrase roughly correctly - sorry Prima if not)

It would seem to me that with a stallion like Montjeu to stick him onto pure speed is just asking for trouble. I know you want him to dominate a mating, but if the dam is going to be in with a shout of bringing something to the mix you are just asking for a hash up.

Most people are less wary of putting a faster sire onto a stout mare though - rightly or wrongly - are they not?

Yes you do seem to see more horses by fast sires out of staying mares, and I guess Midday and Sariska will have encouraged more breeders to repeating the pattern. Now Oasis Dream looks the next big thing I think a lot of middle distance mares have been to him, inc. Dar Re Mi this year.

Pot M, interestingly in the case of Much Faster, if I remember rightly, Sugar Free her filly by Oasis Dream was as you might expect a good sprinter and I think Sugar Free produced a foal by Sea The Stars this year, I wonder if that will also produce a hash up..?!

I suppose given Sea The Stars sire line he maybe will offer a more versatile influence than Galileo say. He is a big horse though and I am sure I am not alone in believing his immense talent got him competitive at 2 rather than any natural 'speed' or precocity.

However I am sure there are plenty of opinons as to what he may or may not do at stud.                                                                                              The stamina influences in Oasis Dream maybe play a part in his stout mates being able to produce top 1 1/2 mile horses.

I would certainly prefer S the S on Sugar Free than Montjeu on her mum!