Bloodstock & Breeding

Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
26 May 11 22:41
Date Joined: 09 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 97 | Blogger: sammy_fool's blog
what does everyone thing.workforse and frankel to stud next year and where? or will they race them on ?
Pause Switch to Standard View workforce and frankel to stud
Show More
Report salmon spray May 27, 2011 12:23 AM BST
Yes. Don`t know. No
Report Paddy Hair May 28, 2011 11:45 PM BST
I think that Workforce will be campaigned in the in the mile and quarter races finishing off with the breeders cup, i can't see him taking in the Arc again. Then he will most likely be retired, there are plenty on this forum who could give you the stats on Abdullah keeping group 1 winners in training at 5. Frankel i guess it depends how his season goes.
Report neill d May 29, 2011 10:49 PM BST
I would be astounded if Workforce didn't run in the Arc
Report Paddy Hair June 1, 2011 3:23 AM BST
Workforce in the Arc, been there done that. Which is why i think he will go for the Breeders Cup and i don't think you can really be trained to take both races in. Also as he showed in last years Arc he can run well fresh after a break.
Report salmon spray June 1, 2011 3:06 PM BST
Do you mean the Breeders Cup proper or the 12f turf race ? At his best would probably be a near certainty for the latter but frankly it hasn`t got the prestige of The Arc. The latter would be a very good move commercially if he could win it. Asking a lot though of a horse who has never run on anything but turf and is almost certainly better over 12f
Report Senor El Betrutti June 2, 2011 12:01 AM BST
after Workforce won at sandown Teddy said that the main aim is the Arc
Report Paddy Hair June 2, 2011 2:07 AM BST
I stand corrected, Senor. I just can't see what is to be gained by winning the same race again. I am only guessing as i am only a punter and not a breeder.
Report Paddy Hair June 2, 2011 2:10 AM BST
Salmon i was thinking of the Breeders Cup Classic run over 1.25 miles not the Turf race.
Report Senor El Betrutti June 2, 2011 2:01 PM BST
Paddy i can see where you're coming from. I think he will take in both the Arc and the Breeders Cup like they tried to last year before the firm ground in the states stopped that idea.
Report neill d June 2, 2011 9:01 PM BST
The Arc is the most prestigious race in Europe and is where all the best 1m2f-1m4f horses meet, it is always important, huge incentive to follow up, it is where horses prove themselves these days, everything WF does this year is a stepping stone to this. If someone offered them a 1m2f Gr1 or an Arc they would take an Arc. The Arc and the Derby are the only two 1m4f races that imply a horse has speed usually.
Report sammy_fool June 2, 2011 9:18 PM BST
so what price will workforse stand at stud next year? and where? 20k my guess

and what price will frankel stand at stud and where or will they race him at 4 so they dont have 2 new stallions in one year. 25 k my guess
Report SquidlyDiddly June 3, 2011 9:41 AM BST
Given the imbalance between the Juddmonte rosters UK and USA, i think Frankel may start out Statesside, esp if he can land a breeders cup after being kept away from the Derby trip
Report June 3, 2011 10:43 AM BST
When you think about his pedigree, Galileo over Danehill, marketing him to top mares in GB & IRE could be interesting to say the least. Many of them will have very similar bloodlines that may create inbreeding that is deemed to close.

I only calculate pedigrees from a theoretical basis, it would be interesting to hear the views of Prima, Potm and RipVW et al from a practical commercial perspective.
Report June 3, 2011 10:44 AM BST
Sorry,sure everybody realised, but I was thinking of Frankel.
Report salmon spray June 3, 2011 12:32 PM BST
Good point. The obsession with Sadlers Wells/Danzig lines in the British Isles ( paricularly at Coolmore ) could come home to roost. Suspect some won`t care about a bit of incest though.
Report neill d June 3, 2011 2:33 PM BST
I wouldn't be surprised if Workforce stays in training again next season and it is frankel retired.
Report potentialmillionaire June 3, 2011 6:50 PM BST
Where to begin!

I think that Workforce is more likely to stay in training than Frankel. Temperament issues mean that Frankel could be a horse that is a little high risk for a 4yo campaign. Fast and brilliant tends to retire earlier than stout and solid as well, not least because of a clamour for their services. Workforce is almost as likeley to retire though, but he remains slightly problematical.

If Frankel finished right now he would command about 40k in my mind. I think Workforce would be around 17 - 20k. Frankel though still has scope to rise above that, more scope than Workforce has for sure.

I think Frankel's pedigree will mean he has a relatively smaller pool of top class mares suited to him. It would be hard to say quite how much though but I suspect there are still enough to keep him well supplied, and make no mistake he will be red hot. If Teofilo flies, F. will be off the scale commercially.

No chance of Frankel standing stateside. Juddmonte Know what they are doing and will not weaken his chances because of a current weakness in Kentucky. Three Valleys, Beat Hollow, Observatory, Zamindar and Rail Link will all be under close review right now. Their Uk roster will be changing a bit for sure.
Report RipVanWinkle June 4, 2011 12:29 AM BST
I think that Rail Link and Zamindar will be alright for next year at Banstead but i can see Three Valleys Sold, Beat Hollow could easily go to the US but he has the makings of a NH stallion and for Observatory could it be possible that Twice Over could make a big assault on the US and if successful they could then relocate him.

I am on the lookout for a Kingmambo stallion and Workforce is a grandson but to me he really needs a Group 1 over a 1m 2f to be a very commercial horse as it stands after one season he will be very hard to use.

Is there be any chance that either Frankel or Workforce could stand in Ireland for one season? Maybe if it was Frankel he could stand at Coolmore or Workforce at Kildangan. But to me they both cant stand at Banstead next year. And what will happen to the triple Group 1 winner Twice Over?
Report potentialmillionaire June 4, 2011 1:32 PM BST
I agree Ripvan. If Twice Over were mine I would be looking for a berth at Juddmonte for him. I am sure though that he is thought to be a big part of Henry Cecil's assault on the trainers championship so HRAC will not be too keen to campaign him exclusively in the U.S.

But for me that's where he should be. They won't be as hung up over his make and shape, he's their sireline and their trip too. He doesn't suit the commercial market over here and their lack of prospects in Kentucky would sway it for me.
Report Prima Donna June 6, 2011 3:13 PM BST
IMO,Zamindar safe at Banstead,Beat Hollow moved to the NH game,Three Vally's sold along with Rail Link the latter to Japan along with Workforce,Obsevatory most likely staying put or moved to smaller stud within the UK,Twice Over then replacing his sire at Banstead and Frankel retiring to Banstead. What a great prospect he will be.
Report potentialmillionaire June 6, 2011 8:08 PM BST
Nice to hear from you Prima. I've just had a week on the Med - not the part I would choose but it was a gift horse so to speak - Despite it not being the grandest imo, there were some monster yachts so I kept peering over the quay to look for you!Laugh

You've got Banstead sorted then! I think you're right on most but I am really sceptical about Twice Over. A most striking individual but so VERY 'raw'. I cannot help but think he would be seen as the type to put a bit of quality on an old Irish-bred hunter mare.

I thought the Derby winner, on the box, looked a bit more handy than the usual Montjeu model. Did you get to paddock watch sufficiently to corroberate (or otherwiseCry?
Report potentialmillionaire June 6, 2011 8:16 PM BST
Just been perusing the Irish stakes results today. Some pleasing results loosely connected to my current stock. Some I daresay have even more to be delighted about. Congratulations to them all!
Report Prima Donna June 6, 2011 9:12 PM BST
Glad you had the chance to get away for a week Pot M,we too have been away,we all need a break sometimes.But sadly it was not us on the yacht............haven't you heard about the state of the Irish economy?And as for Epsom well I think Pour Moi is more Papal Bull than Hurricane Run.Have the sale bods been round to chez millionaire?If so is the news promising?They must be feeling generous this year as a couple of our cheapies have been upgraded.Surprising us somewhat but we are not complaining.
Report potentialmillionaire June 6, 2011 10:30 PM BST
I am blissfully yearling free in 2011.

Friends of mine had something march into the best Donny sale that surprised me muchly. And I think I am right in saying that Tatts have 500 less to look at this time round.

Are you strong enough to ignore the sales companies if they 'over'   estimate a yearling in your opinion Prima? It's so tough to be truly objective over your own stock sometimes and it's easy to let the sales company make a dubious upgrade perhaps. I've turned up to a sale under horsed on more than one occasion and cursed my incompetance.

I'm sure your stock are nice enough on this occasion but with your operation do they not over flatter sometimes?
Report Prima Donna June 7, 2011 1:56 PM BST
So you are 'blissfully' yearling free this year then Pot M,shall I take it you have foals to sell this year?I too understand the numbers are considerably less this year with all the sales companies,perhaps its not such a bad thing.And yes we are strong enough to ignore the over estimation of the stock,but saying that we pretty much decide ourselves who is going where.
I tend to agree with the point about all of us not being truly objective when it comes down to the brass tacks as now and again we all put on those rose tinted glasses don't we,they always seem to fit very well when we put them on.
ATM I'm very happy with them all but like most I have one filly who has not gone on as well as I'd hoped for so it looks like she will be going to a later sale than I'd planned for,and yes its true we do always seem to get very enthusiastic sales 'reps' who tend to agree with everything you say,but it never bothers me much I always take them with a pinch of salt.It can help as we can slot one of the 'cheap' yearlings into a better sale providing its a nice sort,when it comes down to it its all swings and roundabouts you put up a very well bred one who you know they will want then trade a slot with a cheap yearling(who is a good sort) into a much better sale than the cheap one would get if it was on its own.
Oh yes I daresay you are right about the results from yesterday connections are delighted well done to you if yours is connected,as I keep saying the sire is one of the best and one of my favourites I love him!
Report potentialmillionaire June 7, 2011 7:32 PM BST
Yes, it does my cause no good atall when I fancy a dig about said sire, when he then goes round doing favours like that Laugh

I might trundle out to a later sale, you are probably right! I've managed the right sex and colour this year so I'm currently keeping the depression at bay, all the while trying to avoid slipping on that oh so comfortable eyewear!

I guessed that you bigger guys are trusted to know what you are doing - but you see every year several outfits who quite palpably aren't the brightest squeezing dross into a sale that just leaves them with egg on their face. Amuses me no end Devil
Report Prima Donna June 7, 2011 8:00 PM BST
"but you see every year several outfits who quite palpably aren't the brightest squeezing dross into a sale that just leaves them with egg on their face. Amuses me no end"

Me too I know what you mean,but Pot M I never end up with egg on my face...........only a grin when it goes right,saying that mind we all take our turn standing on the carpet waiting for it to be whipped out from under our feet once entering the sale ring!Oh yes did you see Misu Bond had his first winner today?8L winner bred by Littleun2,did see a few trainers with MB stock all say they are delighted with what they have a couple of nice ones running soon In hear.......don't say I never told you,but I know shrewd breeders over in the UK only see his low fee and discount him amazing really.The sale guys have also said Misu Bond gets fantastic sorts who look like pure 2'y olds with his page imo a bargain.
Report potentialmillionaire June 7, 2011 10:01 PM BST
Let's hope it's the beginning for Misu Bond, I'm always for the little stallion man having a touch.

As I'm about to welcome my mare back from you know who, empty, I am reminded though that the massive expense of getting these mares in foal - or not - just makes me worry more about using the real cheapies as you are into so much before you even get your foal on the ground (crooked filly ofcourse!).

I know there's touches out there to be had with them but I also know there isn't a nice Galileo floating around to help pay when the gamble goes awry!
Report Prima Donna June 8, 2011 6:26 PM BST
Ask yourself this then Pot M,with the foals you sold last Dec' what was your profit margin?Plenty seem to go with the mainstream choices only to come away with a loss............all the time using a cheapie that is well bred and precocious providing you get a good sort you can if you have the nerve get a much better return.Did you see today's bloodstock page of the Racing Post (page 15)right down the bottom right hand side a tiny piece telling us "first success for freshman sire Misu Bond" very poor.Can't help in thinking the papers fast going to pot.
Report potentialmillionaire June 8, 2011 7:42 PM BST
Prima, I know you remain wracked with jealousy over my fabulous results last December. But you've just got to let it go.Laugh

I agree cheaper nominations would have left me in a lot stronger position and to a certain extent I've done as I was told this year, so woe betide if it all goes t#ts up, I'll be gunning for you.[;)]

Mainstream and  popular can at least mean you get some sort of return for your money with an ordinary product though. And it's the knowledge that a relatively unknown cheapie just doesn't have the profile to bail you out if you don't hit perfection that always prays on me.

Obviously as we always say, a cracking colt is the way to go then you can stick two digits up at all the fashion followers safe in the knowledge that you're sorted!
Report Prima Donna June 9, 2011 11:43 AM BST
I got my daughter to e-mail some photos from her stud of the Misu Bond I keep mentioning. I will attempt to add them so you can judge for yourself. We like her and the agents like her but I would be interested to hear what B&B'ers think!

Report Prima Donna June 9, 2011 11:44 AM BST
Here is another

Report potentialmillionaire June 9, 2011 9:24 PM BST
Plenty to like I'd have thought - but you have to be diplomatic to a man about his horse!

I'm reminded of Fast Company and she seemed to be a Danehill Dancer type but with more depth. Good kind quality head.

Are you selling or racing?
Report Prima Donna June 9, 2011 9:45 PM BST
I'm told I'm not aloud to help my daughter and son-in-law out at the sales,they very much want to sell her so we will have to see how she gets on,but I am very tempted,each time I visit I always have a look at her she just has that wow factor,and is such a good moving filly add in that Richard Hannon trained her second dam who ran in stakes races and won at two she holds plenty of appeal,the filly's half sister has also won at two.When she was here as a foal last year everyone who came to see the stock all liked her,as I've said before one very well respected judge picked her out as one of the best foals he'd seen that year,saying that mind he was staggered we had a Misu Bond here and like you said she was just like a pure Danehill Dancer,he could not take his eyes off her,it did make me smile as one of the other foals in the field at the time was by Danehill Dancer out of a GR1 winner he said that one was nice but no as good as the Misu Bond.
Report potentialmillionaire June 9, 2011 10:15 PM BST
Tough one!

Presumably you are allowed to buy the odd one to race so it seems that if she is the one for you - and you've not slipped on those pink tinted goggles . . .

Perhaps the compromise would be to get her independantly valued at the sales and bid only to that level?

You'll have to be strong though and walk away if necessary so you're not stripped of your stripes [:x]
Report Prima Donna June 9, 2011 10:52 PM BST
Pot M after finally pensioning off my beloved mare I am under strict instructions NOT TO BUY ANYMORE!!!
Report neill d June 10, 2011 12:48 AM BST
Really interesting stuff lads, keep it going. Keep it and race btw, or at leat watch the Albany and see how ye feel after....
Report potentialmillionaire June 10, 2011 1:22 PM BST
Oh dear.

You've retired her - Time to start afresh. Stand up for yourself manLaugh
Report potentialmillionaire June 10, 2011 1:31 PM BST
Back tracking. With confirmed Sales Entry forms dropping on door mats do you remember I mentioned about a friends yearling that had made Doncaster Premier. Well confirmation just through has that the same yearling has been very kindly placed in Tatts Pt.4 !

Anyone else had such a divergance of opinions?

We've had a right laugh about it!
Report Prima Donna June 10, 2011 1:54 PM BST
Reading that Pot M it does make us wonder are we dealing with f**king the hell can two sales company's have such a difference of opinion on the same yearling?Did anything come up on the page between the sales company's visits?Just out of interest as we are talking about book 4 at Tatt's I have a filly who has not done as well as I'd hoped for she's ok and is by the right sire out of a winning mare the sire is popular over with you (UK)and sell well in Doncaster I don't want her to go to either Fairyhouse or Goffs but I'm not sure about Doncaster Autumn which sale do you think would be the best?I was thinking book 4 and hope for a few foreigners left over from the HIT sale who may like a fast bred sharp sort,what would you do?

Time to start afresh. Stand up for yourself man.

I know I know but I've been told we have far to many in training and my daughter wants a genuine sale so I've been told a firm NO by both of them!Sad
Report June 10, 2011 1:58 PM BST
That is why I prefer dealing with boring statistical pedigree probabilities Potm[;)]

Out of interest which is viewed as the more accurate assessment?
Report Prima Donna June 12, 2011 9:16 PM BST
For the attention of Potentialmillionaire,if he has any views on the above?
Report potentialmillionaire June 12, 2011 10:31 PM BST
Sorry chaps just been away for the wkknd.

Equimine, I think as is so often the case the truth lies some where between the two!

I do think that Donny is a bit smart to be truthful. Ropey sire and dam in this case. Nice but not stunning colt.
Silly though it sounds the choice remains a bit of a dilemma as these friends use a good sales consignor and couple that with a hefty entry fee for a major sale - well obviously if Tatts assessment is nearer the mark then they are on to a serious loss - It's an older mare who has probably had her chances so she wouldn't really warrant that type of wing and a prayer by way of support.

However do you really cull a yearling by way of some other route if it is accepted to a 'premier' sale?

No updates Prima, they came to visit the yearling in the same week as did the final offers of a place!

I'm in a bit of a quandry with 4 v Autumn for you. If I read you correctly and this filly is going to be top 25% of these sales but not necessarily a real standout then I suppose you need the sale that will offer the best depth, rather than a few boozed up racegoers over bidding for the few star lots.

I rarely favour Donny over Tatts, as you can probably imagine from previous posts on my modus operandi! We could analyse the two sales histories endlessly but at this level when has consistency ever had much of a look inCry
Report Paddy Hair July 2, 2011 2:17 AM BST
Interested to see how Workforce gets on in a Group 1 over 1.25 miles, as i said earlier i think he will go for the Breeders Cup Classic over 1.25 miles. I think the fast pace of the American races will bring his stamina in to play.Does anyone know if Abdullah has had the winner of this race before.Thats the Breeders cup not the Eclipse.
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.


Instance ID: 13539