Rip Van Winkle Fee

mares and You Rip Van.

Aussie Rules 4k
Choisir 8k
Danehill Dancer Private
The Duke 25k
Dylan Thomas 15k
Excellent Art 12.5k sme
Fastnet Rock Depends on your mare in one way
Footstepsinthesand 8
Galileo private
High Chaparal 15k Had good sales this year
Hurricane Run 10k
Mastercraftsman 20k
Montjeu Private
Oratorio 7k
Peintre Celebre 15k
Rip Van Winkle 30000
The Rock 20000
Starspangledbanner 15k
Stratigic Prince 3k Same as ID last year
Yeats 10k

I wasn't talking to them it was my father and he was telling them what we were considering using and it looks like one might be going to Montjeu if everything goes according to plan. He didn't mention anything about HRE though is he gone? I think i said on a previous post that Ad Valorem and Ivan Denisovich were gone and i think that is correct dont hold me to it though. Not to much was dicussed on fees though which was strange

My reason for thinking that Rips price will do up from what i previously thought (22500) is because i've heard a few very commercial breeders on about sending alot of mares to him as they think that he will be very commercial his price is going to fall alot after the first year so he had to be pitched on the high side

Rip Van do you plan to use many Coolmore sires?We are using only a few next time 4 sires I think with the poss' of one more buyers seem cold on most of there's,with what they have right now you could say you can see why.Whats you take on Darley fee's?

New Approach £25000
Authorized  £12000 maybe less
Dubawi  £50000
Exceed and Excel £12000
Halling £5000
Shirocco £5000
Byron £2000
Cape Cross  €30000 They should have sold better
Raven's Pass €25000
Manduro    €12500
Shamardal  €40000
Teofilo    €20000
Kheleyf    €8000
Iffraaj    €12000
Echo of Light €4000
Kings Best €15000

Thats if they all stay at the sames studs which is unlikely we will be considering using 4 or 5 from the list

AUTHORIZED 8k BYRON 2k CAPE CROSS 15/20k CREACHADOIR 5k DUBAWI 50k ECHO OF LIGHT 3k EXCEED AND EXCEL 8k HALLING 8k IFFRAAJ 10k KHELEYF 6k MANDURO 10k NEW APPROACH 25k RAVEN'S PASS 20k ROYAL APPLAUSE 6k SHAMARDAL 20k SHIROCCO 5k TEOFILO 25k.

Only a few of this lot worth using ie Dubawi,Raven's Pass,Teofilo,New Approach,Shamardal, Royal Applause is now imo on the back foot going the same way as Compton Place but still has a few fans out there.

Forgot about Royal Applause. Why do you think that Shamardal's price will not go up he's had very good results?

He may rise Rip Van but he could look a bit expensive to me with a rise of say up to 30k if they push him to 25k then they will just look like pushing him up just for the sake of it ,if he were mine and if he went on next year then I would step him on a bit.The market is truly volatile out there breeders will be nervous to spend big bucks.Mares going to a high price Darley sire are more likely to want to go to Dubawi who has done so well if Dubawi had not done it then Shamardal would be the stand out sire atm he is overshadowed by Dubawi that's why I think they will want to keep him the same.

Fair enough PD but i'd say he'll rise. A foal share might be the thing to do with one with coolmore. Maybe using Shadwell stallions is a way of knowing that you nearly have a buyer it will be hard no doubt

Good point Rip Van Shadwell  will sometimes buy a nice horse off you so you can be hopeful with a nice colt of at least a buyer out there,and yes It will be tough,will you use any Juddmonte sires?

If you can breed a horse that Shadwell want to buy that is good news indeed. That's mighty hard to do though isn't it and if it is that nice then there will be a ready market for it anyway! Still 1 more bid is always nice.
I've just spent 1/2 an hour adding my fees and wiped the lot so I am a little p'ssed!

SHADWELL has announced its fees for the 2011 season, and three of its six stallions are available at a reduced fee.

Aqlaam is unchanged at £7,000 and Green Desert's fee remains private, while Nayef's fee is trimmed from £15,000 to £12,500, and both Haafhd's and Sakhee's fees are advertised at £5,000, down from £6,000.

The latest addition to the Shadwell roster, Mawatheeq, a Danzig half-brother to Rumoush and Ghanaati from the family of Nashwan, Nayef and Unfuwain.

Winner of the Cumberland Lodge Stakes and second in the Champion Stakes, Mawatheeq begins his stud career at £5,000.

Shadwell's putlying stallions Muhtathir and Naaqoos remain at Haras du Mezeray, with Muhtathir’s fee dropping to €10,000 from €12,000 and Naaqoos unchanged at €6,000.

Mujahid stays at Allevamento di Besnate in Italy, with his fee down to €4,500 from €5,000.

Shadwell stud director Richard Lancaster said: "Taking into consideration the present economic climate and the results of the recentsales, we have pitched the fees at what we believe are competitive and fair prices in the current market.

"We hope that breeders will be confident that at this level the products of these coverings will give them a chance to makea reasonable return."



"We are delighted to have added Mawatheeq to our stallion roster for 2011. He is a beautifully bred son of Danzig from an exceptional female family. It gives breeders the chance to use one of the leading families in the world at the moment at a very modest price."

I managed to cut and paste you guys;

New Approach £25000
Authorized  £15000
Dubawi  £60000
Exceed and Excel £10000
Halling £7500
Shirocco £7000
Byron £Who gives a
Cape Cross  €25000
Raven's Pass €25000
Manduro    €15000
Shamardal  €30000
Teofilo    €20000
Kheleyf    €6000
Iffraaj    €15000
Echo of Light €3000
Kings Best €15000
Royal Applause 9000

Aussie Rules 6
Choisir 8 Though I'd have left him there
Danehill Dancer 65
The Duke 20
Dylan Thomas 15
Excellent Art 10
Fastnet Rock 25
Footstepsinthesand must go
Galileo you're too late lads, I've booked them all.
High Chaparal 12500
Hurricane Run 12
Mastercraftsman 15
Montjeu Private
Oratorio 10
Peintre Celebre 15k
Rip Van Winkle 20
The Rock 15
Starspangledbanner 12500
Yeats 8500

PD i've been thinking alot about the Juddmonte stallions but it doesbt look like it will happen unless i use Champs Elysees because getting into Oasis Dreams book could be very harrd plus the cost Dansili would be taking a risk and the other have big years ahead of them so there kind of out of the question. I'm finding it very hard to get stallions to suit the mares at prices that we can afford. Have you any ideas PD.If your staying away from alot of the middle market stallions at Coolmore and Darley which stallions are you using for the coming season?. Any views on Tamayuz it would be the wrong year to use him but he was a good horse from a good family

Well Rip Van,the Juddmonte sires are tough to get into them,the two of theirs that have no appeal to me is Observatory and Three Valley's,all the others are sound choices including Zamindar but with him you want a filly.Champs Elysees I like he is a great looking sire with a top page if you are going to use a Juddmonte sire  next year and cost holds you back then take a punt with him but you'd need a mare with a fast pedigree with a touch of class as I doubt he will get many early sorts but he is likely to get good looking ones.
You can make a case for Tamayuz but for breeders like us now like you say its his wrong year,there is value out there now I think just be brave. With the market as it is we will go slightly cheaper as mares in the 20k bracket are the ones that will hit you in the face with trade like this we have a few nice new sires retiring next year and a few 2nd season horses that are commercial things like Kodiac, Arcano,Zebedee,Bushranger,Approve even poss' Intense Focus,I really don't think we need to spend such big sums to get value. In the UK things like Monsieur Bond who is usable his stuff have sold well Reg Bond's other stallion Misu Bond again his have sold incredibly well from a 1.5/2k fee returns a 28k average and with him he gets fantastic looking sorts that do look runners.Don't spend massive amout's deal hard most stallion managers will bend over backwards for you just to get a half decent mare don't feel you have to run with the crowd look for preciosity class and value it is out there.

I finally got round to looking at Misu Bond. He crops up on here a lot with you guys but I've never paid any attention (sorry)
Whilst i agree there can be value with the real cheapies, it is incredibly difficult with them as you really need to have one of the 3 to 5 best yearlings(foals) by them to make any money. when like me you only have a few mares (and I admit it, delusions of grandeur ) it's hard to commit such a high % of my business by even just sending one mare to a 2 grander.
Anyway, whilst pointing out that Misu Bond's 40k yearling is distorting averages, he does look interesting. His picture shows him to be a real Danehill product with a load more depth than the usually slightly tubular Danehill Dancers. Being out of a Warning mare wouldn't have improved his confirmational chances, so perhaps he will be the last of the 'great Danehills'?
Wouldn't that be great for Co. Durham [:D]
I think Rip van, that if these fees are posted at the level we expect, there are going to be some real discounts to come off them. Just count up how many yearlings by your chosen sire made less than the stud fee and take that stat in as your opening gambit, and then walk away.
Without doubt, a few popular horses will be a bug*er to get any joy with but for all the others..
My take on Tamayuz ( I know you didn't ask me, but you also know I'm a mouthy b.......) is that he is not good right now. I also know though, that you don't get to cover all your mares with stone cold certainties so just tighten your choices as much as you can. Note to self . . .

Prima, I forgot. Are you a Beat Hollow man?

Not now  Pot M, I do like him and obviously like his page he is 100% Sadlers Wells but sadly I think he is a jump stallion in waiting.He gets very few runners he does have a crop of about 100 ish that are now 2y'olds so he could have a chance of at least getting a classy runner next year,and oh does he need one.
Mind you I do think he will make a good broodmare sire as he has had some very good mares with proper pedigree's I would not send a mare to him but I would have a daughter of his.

Not to sound like a stuck record I was at NMKT when Misu Bond beat Jeremy in the Free Handicap,he is a superb looking stallion and as you say he is so much like Danehill.I understand your point about 'cheap' sires when you only have a few mares,but you could take the view as the market is tough right now use one of these sires 1,for low outlay 2,with MB preciosity and stamps his stock with a classy page.People often say things like "The Aga Khan is a fantastic breeder"or "how does he breed GR1 winners from cheap or unfashionable stallions"because he understands pedigrees and recognizes the quality that stallion can input into his mare,but I do know he is not commercially driven but a result on the page is needed sometimes.Slick does use cheap well bred sires and gets results both in the ring and on the track in fact she is the breeder of a very good runner who won a few GR1's who you will all remember from a few years ago.Be brave it can work out well.

Prima, I am giving cheap matings a hell of a lot of thought now - like many others I suspect - and your thoughts are very helpful.

It certainly occurs to me, and I hope this may be helpful to others in the same boat, that a ton of cheap matings that sadly put the big commercial dream on the back burner at least won't put the gas out completely. Contrast that with the overstretched finance matings - and a resultant chesnut and white filly - and voila, it's a hastily cobbled c.v (resume) and we're of to talk to Human Resourses at B&Q !

My dreams are too important to squander through ego.

When you use a cheaper sire do you always insist om pedigree?
How do you balance a new horse with less pedigree but more profile versus his compatriot with more pedigree but a limited race record? After all, at this level and playing the 1st season game, we're probably not expecting  to breed Pegasus are we.

Re reading that, I don't really expect an answer perhaps. So much of it is gut instinct isn't it. But any thoughts as always......

I see that my Husband has been handing out advice PM! Though in this instance I do fully agree with his points.

IMO the way the market is atm will cause a sharp divide over the levels that mares are mated at. The top mares will always go the top sires and as PD has already said these mares are often the easiest to mate. Our Galileo noms are already signed for as are the other contracts around that level. The middle market sires, 15k+, are the hardest of all. And this is level that I think will find it hardest of all in the downturn. The risk/reward ratio is so narrow that it almost makes it a risk not worth taking. The studs that need to cover X amount of mares at 10k to break even may find themselves rather exposed financially.This level is the hardest area to consistently make money, yet is also the largest area for smaller Breeders stretching their budgets that cannot afford the losses.

That leads us on to the cheapies. Although the prices may be lower they are lower across the board and so the return can be greater. I know that you will point out that keep/vet/transport/sales entries are still the same, but fixed costs are just that; and will remain fixed even if you have a crooked, weak, ginger and white filly by '30k sire' or a lovely strong racy bay colt by '5k sire'. But which do you think will bring the greatest return? Even if your '5k sire' is ginger,weak and crooked all you have lost then is your 5k fee-and-costs and not your 30k fee-and-costs.

Time and time again we hear (esp after recent sales) that everyone is after good looking racy types, and when these horses come into the ring there are plenty of people to raise their hands. Very few will not raise a hand because the sire only stood for a low fee. If the yearling looks like being a racehorse they will buy it. Obv at some level the page and the sire will come in to how high the bidder will go, but I think you need to seriously ask yourself how likely that mare is to produce a 150-200k yearling in the first place. There is not an invisible clamp that stops bidders hands raising over a certain price because the fee was low! I bought a mare years ago for 2k, covered her for under 5k and the resultant yearling made getting on for 300k. There were no significant updates to cause that, but it looked a runner. (It was and went on to win at Gr level)

"When you use a cheaper sire do you always insist om pedigree?
How do you balance a new horse with less pedigree but more profile versus his compatriot with more pedigree but a limited race record?"

To answer that simply PM I give you......

Zebedee V Mawatheeq

That is rather a simplistic reply I suppose and you are right, gut feeling does come into it. But the same tenets hold true of cheapies as of more expensive sires,that of precocity, conformation, sire line.

You mention not breeding Pegasus at this level but I would counter that it is the 1st season aspect that is restricting that rather than fee.

The two above are good examples but pedigree also comes into play. To take a current topic Misu Bond was usable BECAUSE of his pedigree. He was precocious enough and conformationally very nice, he had ability (his run in the Gns was impressive and he clearly didn't stay. Bryan Smart rated him higher than Monsieur Bond) BUT he also had the pedigree. He was not just another son of his sire, but one from a producing Dam who had a fast page herself. Coolmore noted this and bought the mare privately as well as buying ACM as a yearling. Captain Gerrard is another example. Class on the page as well as a hot sire line. Showcasing is the next from this mould and his page is even better.This is where he wins over Arcano IMO but Arcano as a Gr1 winning 2yo will still be commercial (and we will use both)

Slick'N'Smooth,

      Ofcourse your husband is but a pale imitation, but we make do. . .

      High quality mares are always harder to find than a sire, who is open to all.

  However I feel I must take you to task about the 'invisible clamp'. Ofcourse it must exist, how else would you explain that when every horse I breed is the best horse at the sale - a point that surely is obvious to all - most buyers still steadfastly refuse to flap their catalogue in the air?

      Incidentally what happens when we see Mawatheeq and fall for him?! His racing picture suggests he might be fairly strong after all and I suppose he will probably have a degree of quality. Mind you any degree of 'backward' will sure as hell put a damper on things.

Mind you. The list of cheaply bought stars is now getting longer and ever more impressive.
We all know the 'obvious' horse at any age that looks appealing to a mass market, it's trendy sire power, pedigree, confirmation and vet work. But with everyone fighting over the same horses, and in real terms they become ever more expensive, surely at some point there will become a more significant base of buyers searching for the less obvious horse and more obvious value?
Will we be ready for that, is there a chance that our sheeplike pursuance of what the buyer wants tomorrow, will land us in hot water not having the right product for the day after?

Slick/ prima I suspect you may have Hawala. Maybe im wrong...

boba,your suspicions are wrong we have no connection at all with Hawala though I'm the first to say she would be a nice addition to our mares,if she was mine then she would be heading off to Oasis Dream next spring.

Dancing Brave 3x3, Prima this might be your cup horse!

It might be Pot M...............my July CUP winner!!!

BTW What did you think of the BC meeting? And Zenyatta's defeat?

Prima I agree Hawala would be great to have. I was surprised her offspring full brother to misu and ACM didnt make alot more recently. I am looking at Kodiac for next season I think with a few mares.

Good choice boba,If you send him a few then you should get a great deal with Tony.He's done well this year and had way over 100 mares again that's not bad at all on his 4th season,his book now hopefully will get the deserved upgrade,his runners do look like they will go on next year.
He is just the sort of stallion who stands at a very reasonable fee well bred and he gives you a real chance of actually making some money unlike some of the more expensive sires.Sending him a few are you going to use Zebedee?You should get a reduction on his fee with your others if you choose to do that.

With Misu Bond looking to do fairly well with a very limited book, does anybody think Air Chief Marshal will be able to find a job at stud? He's arguably a better looking horse than his brother and has certainly achieved more on the track. He was also tough enough to win two races in a week; something I admire in any horse. Obviously he would have to be cheap, but being by Danehill Dancer from a good family I think there's possibly a market for him.

Gimcrack,I reckon both Misu Bond and Air Chief Marshal are two very good looking horses,and both had ability but though ACM was at face value better in so much as he was GR1 2nd at 2 the thing that he has against him is that he was a soft ground runner,Misu Bond was more versatile as he ran and won on both heavy and good to firm, generally that's a sign of class plenty of people will tell you a very good horse will go on both,that's one factor in us sending him a mare MB was a very good 2y'old that's another.If ACM does go to stud yes he will be in the cheap bracket if he gets foals/yearlings that are like Misu Bond's stock he will have a chance,I have said above we had the MB foal with us this spring I can't tell you who the person was but I can say he is VERY serious in this industry he picked it out as the best foal he had seen this spring,the person has lots of ultra top class stock and is perhaps the best judge there is here in Ireland.The fact ACM won twice in a week underlines what a tough family he is from,Coolmore have so many potential stallions coming on that they were able to run him so much at 2 as a pace horse for the 'other' runners,if ACM had been with a smaller trainer then perhaps he may of been more positively campaigned.

Prima, having just watched a few of his races I did notice he had a bit of a knee action suggesting why the soft has suited him best. I also see he held an entry in the DBS November sale which is obviously a sign that Ballydoyle feel they have taken him as far as they can. I wonder whether he has been bought privately to remain in training? He hasn't really ran well since July so I'm not sure how successful he would be if this is the case. I agree, It's a shame he wasn't campaigned a lot more positively, as I fear his best days are probably behind him. Watch this space I guess.

My viewing of the BC meeting was a bit patchy and having foals in for the sales the Classic was a little late for me!
Did Zenyatta just drop herself out once too often? It's something they get worse with as they got older isn't it.
No matter. The superlative Goldikova gave us all the memories we need. Would you go again next year with her? I think it is a phenomenal inditement of her soundness and mental constitution that they are even considering it. Maybe the Wertheimers are running short of dosh Prima? I think it's time you stepped in with a cheeky offer. . .
Incidentally SB is my 'hero' over in your neck of the woods, I wonder if it was he who was looking at your foals this spring? Don't worry you can claim the 5th [;)]

In bed before the Classic!With Zenyatta's style of running she is always vulnerable but she was so far back it looked for one moment that she was going to be tailed off,when she started her run I was shouting "come on girl"I was willing her to win.She lost nothing mind in her gallant defeat she is quite remarkable,you can see the race on Racing Post TV if you have not seen it.Goldikova was surperb she is a champion,oh yes the Wertheimers I have no plans Pot M to call them with my offer for the mare,if she was mine that would be it and off to stud she would go,but now perhaps we can see just what a great racehorse the brilliant Zarkava was the trash Goldikovo each time they met.

I nearly forgot SB it was not but he is a great judge!

***thrash***

If Goldikova is wonderful, what is Zarkava?

Zarkava is an absolute champion who thrashed Goldikova each time they met,Goldikova is brilliant she too is a champion mare but however good she is the fact is she was not as good as Zarkava.

How right you are Prima, Goldikova was not as good as Zarkava.

However, over a mile right now Zarkava wouldn't be a shoe in.

I think their very different post Pouliches careers made comparisons very difficult.

And, I think unneccesary!

Thats good then, good to see things haven't gone over the top, back to the books then

Pot M, Goldikova has indeed gone on to be one of the all time greats no one could argue differently,but we will never know just how good Zarkava really was as she was never tested,she was just so much better than anything pitched against her including Goldikova.
If Zarkava had stayed in training at 4 and even 5 who knows if she herself would of improved even more if she had then imo the results would still be the same with Goldikova.The Aga Khan said that Zarkava "was very special" I would agree with him entirely with his view.Personally I happen to think she would of beat the mighty Sea the Stars had they ever raced together.She is one of my all time greats of the turf.I will look forward to her runners and it goes without saying I would love to own her.(if I did own her she would NOT have gone to slow boat Dalakhani)

But who knoes if Zarkava would have trained on all we know is that Goldikova did

We won't know will we and imo I doubt she would of trained on as she looked like she had her own ideas at the end of her 3y'old career, but in their classic years Zarkava was the better and no one could say otherwise.

Not disagreeing but i'd prefer to say that Goldikova is the because of her exploits after her classic year

Pretty sure they are going to keep her in training next year - but not sure it is official yet.

I think if they do keep her in training they must be mad!She can do no more than she has already achieved,going on down the same old route will prove nothing.
She may not go on they don't last forever it would be a shame after all she has done to see her beaten by more than likely inferior runners.

Prima,

        Goldikova didn't stay in the Diane, stumbled quite badly in the Pouliches and continued to improve thereafter. Zarkava may very well have not had the speed to have dominated against improving milers. Life's not black and white!!!

If you breed to race like the Wertheimers then surely going racing with a great horse is why you do it? 'Proving' something is a market place issue perhaps.

And another million smackers into the training kitty would be useful even to them!!

True, They're probably making more by racing on with her at the minute

Air Chief Marshal retired to France:

http://www.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/danehill-dancer-hawala-haras-de-la-cauviniere-air-chief-marshal-retired-to-stud-in-france/787435/top/

There goes the value. Again.

sorry PD with all respect when you said "if I did own her she would NOT have gone to slow boat Dalakhani" do you not conceed the Aga Khan was acting in his own best interest to send his star mare to his Flagship stallion.
Out of interest who would you have sent her to?

"if I did own her she would NOT have gone to slow boat Dalakhani" do you not conceed the Aga Khan was acting in his own best interest to send his star mare to his Flagship stallion.

DMCK, of course I accept that the Aga Khan was acting in his (and his stallion's) best interests, but the point I made was, if I owned her. In which case I wouldn't care less about the Aga Khan's interests!

The Aga Khan objective is probably to race and in that case he can wait until the foal is 4 or 5yo to show its best form, most likely over about a 2m trip, however my objective would be to sell the yearling and my stallion choices would be influenced in that way. I would look at covering her with either Oasis Dream or Invincible Spirit. She was a top class 2y'old and is a physically nice type so OD would be ideal. IS is another proven sire who is commercially acceptable but could still get a good runner for her first foal. Danehill Dancer would be on the list but he rather uncomfortably can fall short in the sale ring.

i really think your a bit harsh there on Dalakhani, maybe the foal wont be a quick 2year old more likely a great over 10f to 12f.
OD DD and IS would be good but id lean more towards Dansili Montjeu or Galileo who by and all sell well and said hypotical foal wouldnt be sellign till next year and who really knows whats going to be fashionable next October (who knows So You Think could clean up over 10f and High Chaperal would be making 10times cover fee in the sales)[:)]

DMCK,If I wanted to breed an Epsom Derby winner out of Zarkava then perhaps I would send her to Montjeu,but when you think about it being as she is out of a mare by Kahyasi could you see that poss' winning the Ascot Gold Cup?The same goes for Dansili who like her is out of a Kahyasi mare so the foal would be 3x3 to Kahyasi that to me would suggest it would want a trip and unlikely to win at the desired 2y'old.Galileo yes is a good choice for the sale ring and he might get a good sort but again with her page I reckon that would want time and maybe a trip.She is one of the great filly's we have seen race but if she were mine then like I said above she would go to high class sires that get top class 2y'olds with plenty of speed as she has enough stamina in her pedigree to use stallions like these and not go for stamina laden stallions like 'slow boat Dalakhani'.If I rang Coolmore with a view to using High Chaperal with her I reckon they would grab my hand off..........but at the same time I'm sure they would think I've gone completely mad!!!

PD do you think that they will send her to STS again next year it could be a big gamble

Sure it is a gamble Rip Van,I don't know what their plans are but it would not surprise me if they indeed go down that route again,I suppose it depends on what she has colt or filly for the Aga Khan both hold plenty of appeal as if she had a colt and it did go on to be a GR1 winner then that colt has massive appeal as a stallion,again with him a filly even if its a non runner its got paddock appeal for his enormous broodmare band.Personally I doubt the Dalakhani will be much cop he is a stallion I would only use with care as for me he is too stamina laden.I could see her going to either Oasis Dream or Invisible Spirit as for the Aga both are from high class producing family's something he is very keen on,that's only if they send her to anything other than his own stallions.Just out of interest what would cover her with?

If i had her i think i'd go for two completely different horses to see what she wants i'd use invincible spirit and montjeu i think that the cross with incincible spirit could work very well

Have a look at the darley fees pd

I'd say Rip Van that apart from Ifraaj,Shamardal,Authorized and Shirocco they seem pretty realistic in as far as stallion prices have been this year but really I think they all need to come down more if they are ever going to offer breeders a return.

The Shamardal hike was a hike and a half wasn't it. I am not sure he has a consistent future as a reliable sales source to be playing that game.

I think that the Authorized/Manduro types will have a pretty flexible 'farm price' if they are to cover more than 12 mares between them.

Does anyone know what's happened to Darley's sire Byron?I see he has no price on his page.Never thought he would be any good as they ruined his chance by covering loads of rubbish diluting any chance both in the sale ring and on the race track.People say things like "its a numbers game" but with his results along with Sleeping Indian who both covered plenty enough you could argue otherwise.I don't want to use either but was wondering what's happened to Byron.

Was thinking the same but it doesnt really matter anyways

I think Byron might be at the paintshop Prima. I think grey and white might be the shade. From there he moves on to the joiners to be measured up for his rockers. . .

Coolmore fees out:
Alfred Nobel 5k
Aussie Rules 6k
Danehill Dancer 75k
Duke Of Marmalade 25k
Dylan Thomas 17.5k
Excellent Art 10k
Fastnet Rock 30k
Footstepsinthesand 10k
Galileo private
High Chaparral 25k
Holy Roman Emperor 10k
Hurricane Run 15k
Mastercraftsman 17.5k
Montjeu 75k
Oratorio 9k
Peintre Celebre 15k
Rip Van Winkle 20k
Rock Of Gibraltar 17.5k
Starspangledbanner 15k
Strategic Prince 4k
Thewayyouare 6k
Yeats 9k

At least coolmore thou still expensive are grasping the reality of the current climate. Most of the other studs are in cloud cuckoo land with their headline fees. Alfred Nobel looks interesting nice family.

Thought Dylan Thomas would be more expensive than the Duke

^^^

They've got some nice cheap horses on there roster.They introduced there new stallions at good prices

I like Alfred Nobel they all seem to be 5k this year,what a pedigree soft ground horse.......almost could I live with him...........yes!I agree about the new sires at good prices,they need to be good prices mind to get us all back into them.

on reflection suppose Duke was given his chance at a mile

Anyone got any thoughts on Thewayyouare? Stood one season in Kentucky. I remember Coolmore did a similar thing with Powerscourt before swiftly shipping him out, so I'm a bit apprehensive about why they have decided to switch him already. I Probably shouldn't be comparing Thewayyouare to Powerscourt for that reason, but unfortunately I am.

I suppose you would say he's possibly not the most commercial on face value, but he was out in July as a two year old and has one of the best pedigrees in the book. Christy Grassick mentioned an issue with his back that prevented him from really running up to what was expected of him, so this is something else to consider. All in all, you would probably say he could be value at €6k?

Although I suppose in reality it would be wise to stay clear of any Coolmore sire that initially stands for around the €10k mark or under. The list of recent failures at this level is becoming quite worrying...

Remember Gimcrack its not the cover that makes the mare,your mare if she has a good enough page then you should get a healthy return providing she gets nice sorts.Seemingly far to many on here send their mares to stallions thinking they will get more when then sell if they just pay that bit more than they need to,when in fact all they will achieve is even more of a loss as most likely the mares end up being in the lower section of those sires books. But then it takes all sorts as they say,you see it happening year in year out they never seem to understand the meaning of commercialism.10k and under sires will inevitably get mares that may not really be that good and their sale results prove this but as I said above if you do have a half decent mare you should get a good result using the 10k and under stallion.We have had very good returns using this sort of sire but we are lucky enough to have a pretty good bunch of mares witch does help of course.

Thewayyouare seems to have got a bit lost on this topic Gimcrack - see what I did there! -

He seemed to disappear after 2 aswell before being lost to Kentucky and now Ashfords 'loss' is our 'gain'.

Horses that flit around usually do so for a reason - where is Powerscourt? and I'm afraid that Coolmore are looking for a bit of income before they abandon Thewayyouare to wherever. He was rated 115 at 2 and his form wasn't that good on reflection. My personal hate is a staying 2yo that doesn't train on though so perhaps that's clouding my judgement!

They've purchased Luckin At Lucky aswell there on a mad spending spree

American 3yo's were supposed to be poor this year

I was just wondering could we see Lookin At Lucky standing in Irelnad next year. Coolmore have a serious lack of Mr Prospector and LAL could provide this to the majority of there Irish mares i'm sure there not going to send that many mares from Ireland over to him.They have used Smart Strike on a few good mares so i'm sure theyll do the same with LAL. With this purchase Coolmore are heading in the right way as to have a stallion that can be used on an awful lot of mares in Ireland and the UK, Danzig is far enough back in him , what are the chances of them doing so.

E20,000 is a fair price.

With Ripvan being the only stallion retiring this year of his type and 'bracket' Coolmore have once again got lucky like they did last year with Mastercraftsman.
If that's where you want your mare to be, then that's where you've got to go.

So have you your nominations all sorted out now Pot

I'm afraid it's not coming easy this year Ripvan (like it ever does!) as I am struggling to make ends meet and wondering whether to gamble on the value of unborn foals is not something that comes easy!

I can continue ok if I keep it cheap and cheerful which doesn't always appeal. However I am also mindful of an agent friend this year who said this year that I must upgrade. Whilst I know that you have been able to do so this year, and I envy you, I am also VERY aware that the bottom of the market is readily available to us all whatever level we play.

So I am listening to Prima Donna more than the 'know all/no thought' agent as with my mare numbers I think over stretching right now would be madness, so I shall have to find some cheap value and decide how much to stick my neck out on the best mare only.

Anyone used / seen Dandy Man?  On paper he looks right up my street.

PP,Dandy Man is a super looking sire if you liked Baltic King you will like Dandy Man more,a good sire who I rate I'd take a chance if I were you,a similar profile to Acclamation.

Excellent, thanks for you help. I'll look into him, looks value at E3.5, Kodiac at E6.5 is looking too expensive for me now.  Still we shall see what wheeling and dealing can be done.

I agree with you Kodiac to me looks a touch top heavy look at his 'real'median you will see what I mean,good luck mind Dandy Man a great choice.

Potm have you thought about a foal share at all or maybe sending a couple of mares to the same stud. Chevely Park have some nice deals going over there at the moment would Virtual interest you. Some of the Coolmore stallions are so easy to get into at the moment aswell mainly Thewayyouare, Strategic Prince, Oratorio, Choisir(not sure what the story with this horse is anyone i've talked to hasn't seen him). Ourselves personally have got a boot up the behind cause of using Oratorio and HRE last season others paid off ie Iffraaj but these mistakes cant be made this year so only stallions with a very very good chance of returning a profit will be used.

Thanks Ripvan. I thought that there wasn't much movement at Cheveley as I gather that Kyllachy is nearly full and Medicean doesn't move. I am sure that there may be flexibility with Virtual - and for a very good reason I think - but he's not for me.

I would consider a foal share but the Darley smart types are full so I haven't bothered to approach them on that front. The Coolmore smart types are perhaps too smart for me so I haven't given it much thought but I might have to pluck up courage!

I'm trying to stop making 'these mistakes' too! So any suggestions. . .

By the sounds of it you'll find it hard to find a commercial stallion that is relatively cheap that doesnt stand at either of the big two. Knowing that you've dealt with Juddmonte before they have to be high on your list but which stallion is the hard part,using Champs Elysees twice is a risk there big two are a no go. I like Zamindar small bit pricey though. Observatory is not commercial and the other two are coming into tough years so i can see why your finding it hard to find stallions. Who is actually on your list, there are an awful lot of stallions having there first runners this year are you willing to take a chance

Rip Van,have you seen Zamindar?Doubt he could ever be referred to as small.Over in the UK stallions at a price who are worth taking a chance with are few and far between.One who is very well priced when you consider how well he's done is Monsieur Bond,he does have small crops for him over the next 2 years but I know he has over 100 booked so far they are taking 120 to him I can't see much wrong with him he's not really proven but he is showing he is very capable of getting good sorts that also sell well.And just to add to that how many sires in his fee range get the backing of his owner?It all helps when you walk into the sale ring,we all need some of that from time to time.

PD i have seen Zamindar he was in a field that was well boarded up not the usual Coolmore hedge type fencing. I said that Zamindar was a small bit PRICEY he is a sire of top fillies i'm sure an outstanding colt will come that why we have contacted Juddmonte about sending a mare to him he's not full yet so we still have that option.

I dont personally like Monsiuer bond never saw him at stud but saw him race once i didn't think there was enough of him in it to be honest. No denying he has been a success at stud so far and he has a classic contender for this year

Well I'm glad you lads are having problems with my matings!! Nice to know I'm not alone

I think Ripvan was referring to Zamindar being a little bit pricey Prima, not a little bit little! Well I hope so anyway as outside Lucarno they don't get any bigger do they.

I've given Monsieur Bond a bit of thought - and believe me that's a sentence I thought would ever pass my lips! I can see many positives, but I'm still not sure, not least 8% winners/runners and an A.E.I of 0.25 according to the Racing Post!

Anyone seen Vale Of York yet? I don't think he was that good was he, and a staying son of Invincible Spirit wouldn't be my idea of a possible starting point. However if they look the part the Breeders Cup cachet would propel them higher than they should perhaps go in the ring maybe.

Sorry Potm i havent been to Kildangan to see him, i'm sure he'll get quite a few mares but theres Sadlers Wells, Green Desert and Dieses in him so that narrows down a lot of bloodlines that will go to him. Surprised they didnt retire him to America but can see a Group 1 winning 2 year old by Invincible Spirit being popular in Ireland.

Monsieur Bonds A.E.I is very low but not many sires are above 1

Pot' M Monsieur Bond has done well considering the opportunities offered to him. Other breeders have cottoned on to this and the upshot is that he had more than 90 mares booked before Xmas.( and yes, one of them is ours [;)]) Usually I am sure the phone would be quiet until at least the end of Jan!  His owner is looking to be very supportive of the stock in the ring and there are some very good deals to be had for the right mares.

Another sire that we are taking the chance of a big 'mistake' on is Misu Bond. We were so impressed by the foal we had by him last year, that we are going back. All of the stock I have seen by him are out of the same mould and look just like their sire. I know you are not keen on such cheap horses Pot M but gambles at this level can be taken. Esp when you take into account that the owner has again supported the horse with the mares that got Monsieur off the ground and with stakes horses to boot. The owner has several in training and will support in the ring. As we all know, a good looker is half the battle and this stallion gets good lookers!

Zamindar is a decent sire and I think 12k is fair enough really, but he did need the drop. Sorry Rip Van I mis-read your post!

Vale Of York will hold appeal because of his sire, but he is in direct competition wit Tally Ho's Zebedee. Zebedee looks like a good type to get early fast 2yos and at that stud he will get help to get them. Can the same be said for V of Y? IMO Zebedee is a prime choice for using 2nd season. He will be way over-subscribed this year and the value of your nom will suffer as a result. 2nd time up his first mares will be off to the next new horse and his runners should hopefully be flying by the time you come to sell.

From what I can see you English spend too much time fiddling about with your AEI's and your other stats. Over here, we look at the stallion, look at it's sire, see if they are hot/early and then use them!

From my knowledge of your operation Prima - and I remain unconvinced that I have it right - I don't think a Misu Bond **** up will be too much for you to bear. Unless ofcourse the Hon. Mrs Slick'n'Smooth can make you pay for such a mistake in ways I couldn't begin to imagine. . .

You seem very convinced by the horse so I think you are wise to back your judgement at this level. I assume that you have been successful at breeding out the knees that he seems to have inherited so successfully from Gramps!

Vale of York appealed to me as I was looking for that cheapie 1st seasoner for a mare who could do with a bit of size which Zebedee perhaps is light on. I suspect V o Y's size might all come from length of leg though so am hoping for an opinion on that.

While we are on the subject of Racial stereotypes! Does the English 'fiddling' necessarily bring lesser results than the Irish gung ho?

Well Pot M have you ever seen Misu Bond?He is pure Danehill and that stallions knees never stopped him becoming a great stallion.The mare that was sent to M Bond did not have the best knees but her foal/yearling along with all his others that I've seen are superb,so I'm not at all nervous of him conformationally.His trainer has told me he rated him above the other Bond horse that's mentioned above.


While we are on the subject of Racial stereotypes! Does the English 'fiddling' necessarily bring lesser results than the Irish gung ho?

Yes as imo too much time researching this sort of tripe ends up with breeders convincing themselves to use
stallions like Notnowcato,Tiger Hill and now Mawatheeq,and Shirocco,can you think of any commercial IRISH breeders who would use such sires?

Vale of York Pot M I've not seen but as you can guess holds no appeal to us!

But I managed to avoid Monsieur Bond and his 6k average in 2009 and I would've been mighty glad to have tapped into the 60k average of Shirocco's stock the same year!

And those that found Sir Percy/Cockney Rebel successful this year sure did. As we've said before, one size doesn't fit all and you've got to hunt out the value.

Of the 4 stallions mentioned Prima, I think it was a lowdown, dirty, doublecrossing stunt to mention one of them   and two I've never used with the final one most unlikely - but I'm enjoying you and Slick thinking I'm barking anyway

Being commercial breeders we all have to remain fluid with our plans and go with what the markets want,a couple of those names have surprised most,doubt the last four will mind you............you might agree,if you think I'm being low-down,dirty, double-crossing then hard luck!!!

Well, finally I gave up on Kodiac, try as I might to get them down they would not budge from E6K, apparently he's doing a good trade at that price.  So I'm booked in with Dandy Man which I'm very happy with as I think he'll really suit my mare.  Also a half sister of Dandy Man had a 2yo winner at Musselburgh by Amadeus Mozart which boads well. Now fingers crossed we get the mare in foal as she was a bloody nightmare last time.

should have read .."Amadeus Wolf by Mozart"...less haste.

Well done Posh Paddy,great choice thought you would like him,we have couple here by Dandy Man they are good sorts,he's from a great family [;)].What's happened to Baltic King ?I know he was out for the season last May after having blood in his seamen he's not on the roster from what I can see,perhaps that's a reason for your mare being a nightmare...............it may not be all her fault,but that's only a poss'mind.[:x]

**semen**(s p u n k)

I heard (and this is complete hearsay mind) that allegedly the reason he had blood in the semen was a mare he was about to / had just covered kicked him in the crown jewels.  Whether he's not on the roster because of a lack of popularity (he only covered 50 odd in his fist season, don't know the figures for 09 or 10), software glitch on the website or knackered knackers I couldn't say.

It wasn't the sires fault anyway, she scanned in foal plenty of times but they kept disappearing, also she kept being scanned with twins and every time one was burst the other never survived.  In fact I'd given up on her after her last covering but she held onto it and gave me my first foal.  Didn't cover her last year as she foaled so late.  Hopefully we can get her sorted alot earlier as I don't want a late one again though she's 19 now so will just have to hope.