I thought he was sold!

First place to check would be the conditions of sale in the catalogue. Normally you have to announce any vices prior to sale.

Thanks, but the colt showed no signs ever, even at the sale he was fine and never even thought about it. The only little problem that I have now been told is that in his cross breeding it has been noted other similar crossbreds. But surely the buyer would be knowledgeable to these pecularities when looking at the page and the horse.

I think the said animal will have to go back to Tatt's ,then it goes before a panel to see if they then agree it has the vices described by the purchaser,if they say it does NOT have any of the vices then its classed as a normal sale,if not it will then be returned to you (at your cost).
Years ago I bought a foal from Tatt's when we got him back it was a weaver,we sent it back before the panel who said it was NOT a weaver,I said fine but he must go back to Tatt's as a yearling to be sold,his new buyer returned him as a weaver the following autumn once again he went before the useless panel who then agreed he was a weaver,the result was a void sale we lost out that time,I now don't have a lot of faith with the said 'panel'who frankly in that case must of been blind,good luck hope it goes right for you.

We sent back a wind sucker a few years back. No argument from the vendor which suggests they were chancing their arm when they were selling. Buyers have seven days to send a horse back and if he has shown any signs of a vice, he should go back and let the vendor prove otherwise. The burden of proof has to rest with the vendor as the buyer cannot take the vendor's word for it that the horse is just agitated and will be fine a few weeks later. Certainly I wouldn't. As a genuine vendor who has sold a horse with no vices, I would ensure that you understand exactly what happens next, where the horse will be stabled, who will be looking after him and how they will assess whether he has a vice. Once you know this, then ensure you do everything you can to get the horse settled. Maybe a friendly face or an old routine would calm him down.

Thank you PD and BI. I can ensure you he has shown no vices he has been with the best in the business this year and their word is good.
The only problem BI is that if I had known of any problem it would have been disclosed and the colt would have sold there and then ( be it at probably a lower price). The new owner may have had second thoughts and thought they had paid too much (my faith in people is waining). We just hope the colt settles wherever he ends up but I must say it will not help him if he has to be a stabled at a further place in a shortwhile.

Two experiences for me.

I returned a weaving foal who had been consigned by a decent stud.I rang them before returning him and they said they knew nothing of it. Mind you, owner/manager was perhaps not the type to actually get his hands dirty. I'm afraid that some studs don't have much of a clue about the  attention to detail that makes for a really good establishment.
The colt weaved the second it got to me and Tatts agreed. Owner/manager still swore it didn't do it for them prior to sale. So 1 nil to Tatts over the vendor for me.

The other time I sold a foal and it found it's way to Ireland and as soon as it arrived they declared it a box walker. The guy at Tatts (you know the one, helpful,everyone likes him) said this is often a safeguard until the key managers get back from the sale and they can assess the horse properly. This was indeed what happened - great call from you know who - and I heard no more.
As they have declared both walking and weaving, could this be the case with you ugly? Good luck either way!

Gutted. Have just heard that the panel have confirmed the horse is a box walker. The purchaser may still buy at a reduced sum but waiting to hear tomorrow. This horse must be really unsettled, will just wait and see before going to December sales or breeze ups.

Desperate, ugly.

Hopefully it's a group horse in the waiting and that will become very obvious by the time you try next!

Ugly,If you take him to either of those sales as you know its in your interest to declare him as a box walker,in this market that could put some punters off,I'm sure its not been the plan but if you like him why don't you put the colt into training?
But you may decide to take what you can get for him now if the purchaser does get back to you,as I said above I've no faith in the 'panel'this sort of outcome is never satisfactory to either side,good luck btw.

Thank you Pot M and PD, I have read some of your comments on different threads over the last few months with great interest as although I don't know who you are, you are obviously well connected and experienced.
My business partner and I are very small time hands off breeders and owners and this was such an up with a crashing fall. The trainer who bought him has returned him as his owner/client is from the Far East and would not go ahead. Our well known consignors are bringing him back today and they will settle and assess him. If we go the training route it will initially cost us well in six figures which we really can't afford on our own. So many big names were interested in him and obviously we will declare his vices. We want to be honest and gain a good reputation in what is an essential honest business. We have had alot of help from different people with very little envy or greed shown, however my business partner is thinking of chucking it all in as we already have scaled down from three broodmares to just one. Oh well we will see if our little lad can comeback and possibly emulate his recently deceased father, that would be something! I will keep you advised.

Was he by Singspiel just out of interest?

I always enjoy reading POTM and PD'S posts.

Ugly....Put the colt into training and hopefully you can post back here in a while telling us he is flying.

I bought a 3yo NH colt a few years ago......he was a box walker and priced accordingly.........won a point to point first time out as a 4yo........it wasn't a great race but I showed a tidy profit and his new owner was happy with what he bought.

GO FOR IT.

Thanks for the responses. Yes PD you are correct.

I thought he might be,if you read my post's then you will know I am the biggest fan of Singspiel .............honest!Only joking Ugly be brave and put him into training!

Really sorry to hear of your experience.  So many horses have vices that appear as you say from becoming unsettled.  I had wind-suckers and weavers aplenty and never really worried about them.  Box-walkers can of course walk off their condition.  I would suggest if you do go down the training route, to pick a smaller trainer who is a) cheaper and b) could turn him out daily into a small paddock/pen.  I know he's a colt but it is still possible and may just settle him. I'd also suggest your trainer looks into using calmers such as Nupafeed (Speciosa was trained on it) or Magic. Both products are excellent at relaxing the horse without taking anything away (if that makes sense!) - once the horse gets older he may relax better in any case.  You may also find a smaller trainer will do a deal with you and maybe keep half to help you out.  At the end of the day, they need horses in and so long as 50% of the training fees cover what he/she is shelling out.

Best of luck whatever you decide and let us know how you get on.

I thought I would update anyone interested in this thread and sought anyones input.

You note I had take back my horse after him being sold when the buyer and Newmarket Equine Hospital confirmed my yearling is a boxwalker. He returned to our consignor and is now with a pretrainer being broken in. Guess what not a sign of box walking nor weaving.

The well known buyer and Newmarket Tatts are either incompetent, weak or fraudulent who maybe a mixture of the three.

After good wishes from all including those on this forum, I decided to put him into training. Moving on the horse is sired by Singspeil and is a strong looking colt who I have entered for the Derby, okay I may be dreaming but it was only £500 to enter and only have 477 to beat. I would love to prove our accusors wrong not to have given the colt a chance.

Now he needs a name and he is a first foal out of Noble Plum (my mare). Any suggestions for him, possibly a strong single name. I look forward to any suggestions and will put them to my partner for consideration.

Deserted Orchid ?

President Grover would be the name for me Ugly

Ugly was the mares foal this year bad saw the price it sold for that was very bad

Pflaume is german for Plum (Singspeil being a german form of opera).  Amongst other things its also slang for 'dead-loss', 'coward' and 'twit'.

How about Bastien, the male lover of Bastienne from Mozart's first singspiel opera.

Rofl Stellar. Seriously though Ugly I'm sure the whole of the forum hope that this horse is the next superstar to slip through the net (Snow Fairy story in racin p tmrw).

Friend sold potential jumper at Doncaster as 4yo many years ago,had owned him since foal, no probs at all, purchasers lived in Scotland and said he weaved, much fuss and in end she had to go all the way from Somerset to Scotland to collect him, never weaved needless to say, kept him and won a hurdle/chase or ptp for her every year since! Now 13 and loaned to a hunting home, dear old boy.

Some things are just meant to be even though they are infuriating and unjust at the time. Please tell us all when your horse first goes to the sports, we will all be cheering him on!

Statecraft Skull, it's an anagram [;)]

Thanks for the replies and the good wishes. Keep the names coming we have plenty of time. Rip yes we made the mistake of going to the uncommercial Haafhd. He was not that bad looking but Peter Doyle has bought him, probably end up being a Zeberdee. I will keep you informed of the name and his progress.

Test

He wasn't cheap the year you used him either but hopefully he can pay you back by winning something, it will prob be Hannon who has him so thats a positive.

What is the mare in foal to and what stallion do you plan on using on next year because it seems she has got two fairly usefull coverings so far. Maybe something along the Danehill line now seeing that the mare has Sadlers Wells and Kingmambo in her pedigree and also Darshaan so your limited on European bred stallions.

But how about Zamindar the Gone West cross has worked in the past with the family and shes due her filly and Zamindar is a very good sire of fillies

Rip I have been advised it is not just the breeding but also the matching the physical make up of the mare - mixing strengths and weaknesses with the sire.
She is in foal to Oratorio who is a strong looking horse and we are virtually certain to go with Paco Boy. PB appears to be a commercially and popular first season sire and she only has to walk a couple of paddocks to see a lover. However always welcome advice from those with much experience. Our mare was with Sir Mark and unfortunately injured when racing and retired, she was certainly improving and would possibly have been one Sir Marks ever improving handicappers.

We have a mare in foal to Oratorio as well he never let us down yet but it wasn't a great year for him but who knows what year will through at us. Paco Boy is a nice choice but the mare is not proven, if someone looks at her sale results so far they will be wondering why one sold so cheap. Its not my mare but ugly would you not try a proven stallion on your young mare. I know she got Singspiel in her maiden year but Haafhd and Oratorio are just not doing it at the momen,t in the ring for Haafhd and on track and in the ring for Oratorio.

Rip thanks for your reply but you have forgotten that by the time of next years sales, the Singspeil colt will be second favourite for the the 2012 Guineas. Forever Optimistic. You may be right but if the produce is a good looker and walker like the first foal we might be lucky. If not I will be looking for a trainer. Its not easy this business/hobby/passion as I am really much more an owner than a breeder.

Ugly, sorry to hear your problems. What about Kwazulu?

They are a famous South African weaver company.....

Just thought I would update you on this tale of woe that I first posted in December 2010.
Please read the thread of how we I thought I had sold this yearling and he was returned to us as a box walker, but good things have come out of this. I kept this good looking colt and named him Brockwell.
He had 2 runs as a two year old, the first was very encouraging. He is trained by Tom Dascombe and last winter we had him gelded so missed out on going to the Derby,(well one can dream). He has run 7 times this year as a 3 year old, and he has just completed a hat trick of consecutive wins at Haydock and will probably get a rating of around 90. He has never box walked or weaved although before his gelding was quite fizzy. He has developed into a fine strong looking gelding who keeps improving. I have had so much enjoyment from seeing the training of the horse develop and improve with every run.
I am now getting interest from buyers from the jumping game and Australia with prices between 2 or 3 times what he would have received at the yearling sale. I still have the mare and have a racy yearling filly that I will put into training.
So whatever happens from now on is a bonus and the last couple of years have been great (I do own several other horses). Follow Brockwell and you never know he maybe at York, Cheltenham or even Melbourne in the future. Unfortunately I would love to stick two fingers up at the well known trainer who pulled out as I and my advisers are sure he purposely geed up the horse as he probably lost his buyer/owner. I will obviously not name him but would love for him to know on what he has missed out on.

Excellent news, thanks for the update as I followed the original thread. Heres hoping for a 4 timer  :) Perhaps we could have a name the trainer competition !!!

well done ugly the kind of tale we all like to hear, perhaps said trainer was elephants trunk when making the original purchase

Blimey ugly, I am not sure I should be thanking you for the update as it's a pretty grim reminder of the flight of time!

Well done though for sticking with it and getting your just rewards. Remember how the beggars go wrong though before you turn down too many offers!

The trainer you sold the colt to would be a rather mercurial type and not known as an easy type to deal with. I am sure many remember he/she has some 'previous' on a 'sales' deal ut I won't name them either. I'd be hoping to find some way of letting them know what a c0ck up they perpetuated though.

Thank you for your replies and good wishes. I am watching the closing ceremony speeches at the Paralympics and it is a very humbling experience and we all should be very thankful how lucky we are for all those good moments in life. Anyway I hope my horse stays sound and healthy and with a bit more luck adds to his recent successes. PM if those offers are forthcoming I will certainly
consider them as I am learning how short that bridge is between success and failure.

of course none of us would have cheated by looking it up on the tatts or RP listings would we.

Great to hear of your success ugly. Brockwell seems like a cracking horse. Two fingers to other parties mentioned indeed. I am not surprised the jumps boys are looking for him. He seems like a horse open to further improvement and a real triumph hurdle type. At this point financially I would let them have him. After his hat trick of wins and with the 3 year old hurdles starting I would let someone else have a crack now ;).

Great happy ending Ugly.  You could just about walk him over to Donald's ;)

As above - what a great ending and testament to your faith in your colt !

Delighted to hear about this, I do love when something good comes of what seemed a bad situation.

Are you definitely going to sell ugly?

Thanks once again everyone. BSB Tom nor I have actually received a concrete offer.
I will sell at what we think is the right price but do not be surprised if he is
with us next year.

Great to hear. A mark of around 90 should get him into some very nice handicaps and attempt some good pots.

Great to hear. A mark of around 90 should get him into some very nice handicaps and attempt some good pots.

we all know the trainer who did the dirty big daddy

Just thought I'd add my name to the list of well-wishers.  It took a certain amount of faith & courage to put him in training yourself and I salute you.  Fortune favours the brave and all that.

Yes, well done to you too. Am I being a bit thick and am I the only one who hasn't got a clue who the trainer is who messed you around??!!

Hi Johnny,

I'm with you with this one,who ever the trainer was ,hell mend him as my auld granny would say !!!

I will join you two as one of the three wise men in the dark at the bottom of the thread. Or is it the 3 monkeys ?

big daddy do your homework track the horse back see who bought him simples m8

or ask mr elsworth

Sorry Cunning,

Simple error on my part should have checked out the sales part in the Racing Post, deserves all he gets,hope he doesnt train another winner,the scoundrel!!

Oh, so it's him.

Years ago, before the tunnel opened, everybody used to take the overnight ferry to Deauville. I remember one time, said trainer was standing in the foyer when I guy came out of the lift carrying a few slabs of beer. He marched right up to the trainer, plonked the beer at his feet and said "keep an eye on my beer please mate, I'm dying for a crap". And off he sprinted to the loo. To be fair to the trainer, he stood there minding this guy's beer for about 10 minutes until he returned.

Charming tale Johnny!On a similar theme surrounding well 'crap'I was travelling home from the sales and needed a pi$$ and fast.So I stopped at a public loo can you all imagine my dilemma when I found the 'bog' in darkness.........still when needs must what can you do,so in I walked only to feel something soft and long under my left foot,OMG I knew what I'd stepped inand the horrifying knowledge that struck me was that my shoes had thick and deep tread..........I went home wearing only the one shoe having immediately chucked the left one and 'relived' myself outside against the loo wall!

Please, please, please don't anyone feel the need to 'top' Prima Donna's story.

Glad to think you might be able to afford a new shoe after recent events Prima

Yes I certainly can afford new one's now,but you can guarantee after the public loo event the new one's will be all 'slick and smooth'  Did wonder if you noticed.Still hold my view with the said stallion mind.

Time will tell on that sire - and i suppose just quite how much time is the question!

Ofcourse as we always say, expectations will get in the way of a realistic judgement perhaps.

I'm glad you might see a bob or two as I often wonder if you are allowed a divi from the Gallic side of things!!

Strangely enough I knew the late Desmond Cracknell

i see said welcher on deal, just made 90k purchase@ book1 hope he sticks to this one