zebedee ?

God, he's rated 109. I'm afraid I don't approve. I think it doesn't reflect well on the game and just gives a more powerful voice to those that claim flat racing is  money led, fleeting and accordingly uninteresting.
He'd have found a berth if he didn't train on although at less money, but I think sometimes someone should do whats best for the greater good. . .

Wonder what happened to Dark angel he dis something similar, hate to see it, and if by some wonder he does turn out to be any good at stud, they're putting a glass ceiling over his head. Bad for the game. But It just goes to show that more conditions races for horses over 90 are needed to keep horses like this in training. Sad really, he wasn't even exposed

Angel... didfew commas missing aswell, ahhh well

"You never like losing one of your best horses, but Zebedee was only small and a sprinter through-and-through, so it would have been tough for him next season against the older speed merchants and I can quite understand Julie accepting an offer for him to stand at stud in Ireland.

"I will miss the little horse, though he cost me a monkey! - I bet Julie £500 at the start of the season that Auld Burns would end the year with a higher rating than Zebedee, and, though I remain conviced that Auld Burns will eventually reward my faith, I was always going to have to pay up on this one."

So basically the trainer thinks he's small, unexceptional and wouldnt train on.  I'm in for a few covers for sure.

potentialmillionaire     28 Sep 10 17:23 
. I'm afraid I don't approve. I think it doesn't reflect well on the game and just gives a more powerful voice to those that claim flat racing is  money led,
It is had you not noticed?

 
.


yer ma     28 Sep 10 22:55
So basically the trainer thinks he's small, unexceptional and wouldnt train on.  I'm in for a few covers for sure.

Or you could take the view he is very precocious exceptional in winning 6 from7 starts including 2 GR races,Julie Wood has been offered a lot of money and why not,plenty of studs would be on for a sharp fast son of Invincible Spirit.
I can remember plenty of people saying the same thing about Dark Angel but when it comes down to it we are in the game to make money,plenty have made it out of Dark Angel so why not this new son of Invincible Spirit? The fact he is on the small side don't forget he is a grandson of Green Desert,plenty of appeal with that sire line atm.

Why didn't they run him in the Abbaye, Markab is now out, he would have placed.

going to stud at end of 2yo 5 month career, never contested a gp1 and no winning back type until the third dam... dont think i'd use him if he was free and begs all sorts of questions of over production responsibility

and Dark Angel did at least win a gp1 (of sorts)

Ofcourse the game is money led

However we need a bigger picture if we are to keep everyone interested and ensure plenty of bystanders.

Image is all for many, it's what governs our sire choices so strongly ( and regrettably ) so I  think we pick and choose when to ignore it at our peril.

This sort of retirement does no favours to public perception.

I entirely agree potm - at least she'll plough the funds back into buying more yearlings.  Happy days in the doyle household ;)

Good point yer ma. By and large Julie Wood seems a good egg - which is why I worry about where she chooses some of her counsel !

Yeah I do understand where you are coming from,but the fact is if his sire goes on, and don't forget he has some expensive crops to go in the near future, then a fast early GR winning son of his will have a slot in the market,if also Lawman  does well with his first crop then Zebedee will find plenty of buyers for his stock,providing he gets nice sorts,trainers will always be happy to get sharp sorts who poss' could win a sales race,they will be aware Zebedee was good enough for this.

Julie Wood spends a lot of money on yearlings and her training bill must be massive. Why shouldn't she cash one of her horses in if she is offered the chance to do so? After all next season (next month, next week...) the horse might be dead. That is the reality with horses, you take your profit when you can.

As for taking the money and not doing what's best for the greater good or the sake of the sport, if we really believed in that or placed such store by it than wouldn't we either, race all of the stock we breed to provide a spectacle for the racegoers, or give the stock away to people who will race it as we are not driven by financial return? This game is not just a game, it is an industry and where there is money to made people will take the chance to make it. Whether that is Julie Wood selling the horses, Tony O'C standing him, or a mare owner selling the progeny they are aiming to make money.

Prima you are a little naughty in your 'interpretation' of my point

I don't suggest for one minute that the game should be a philanthropic fantasy. (well certainly not when my lots pass through the ring anyway[;)]

This is a high profile decision that doesn't reflect well and I think as I said earlier, that IF he hadn't trained on there would still have been a market for the horse for all the reasons you stated.

Incidentally, I am waiting for tomorrow to be over and then I shall be quizzing you on all matters Goffs! Hopefully Rip Van and a few others may come out of the woodwork and we'll have the proper inside track.

Pot M, I may have taken your point to it's outermost limits but I was just highlighting where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable to make a profit on a foal and a yearling but not a 2yo in a stallion deal? Why do we need to see if he trains on, if whether he does or not doesn't affect his value?

As for all of the hand wringing about how badly this affects public perception, I just don't buy it. The perception of who? To my mind you are either a Racing person, to whom decisions like this are not unheard of and can be accepted with a philosophical shrug of the shoulders and the time honoured phrase "That's Racing" or there is Joe Public who couldn't really care less about whether Zebedee races on at 3yo as they are unlikely to know who he is or remember him next season. It has also been my experience that many of the 'public' are very taken by how much these horses cost they seem to think they are all worth millions. If they have seen Zebedee, and remembered him, and then found out that he has been sold for loadsamoney as a stallion I am sure they would impressed that they had actually seen him in the flesh. Much has been made in the wider horse world about the stud value of STS, even making the mainstream national media, I really don't see that retiring early has any detriment to the public perception at all.

I was at Goffs for a time yesterday but I haven't been today. I cannot spend all of my time socialising and enjoying boozy lunches at the sales..... I have to make the money that Slick spends!! Slick has spent all of her time there the last few days and will be there again tomorrow. She has kept me updated on the results of ours going through.

There's just the endless refrain about horses on the flat not sticking around and a 'narrative' or the longeivity of jump horses, and the public getting favourites etc etc.

I'm probably just playing devils advocate and whilst I'm never going to approve of a sound horse
being prematurely retired, as you say this particular case is hardly earth shattering.

AND this Dark Angel mania - when will it end?! In my opinion he had no profile, and no one can expect him to justify these figures can they. But every time I have a waver about putting confirmation first, well something like this pulls me up again!

P.S. I hope Slick is having a go at putting some bread on the table herself this week!
Have you balanced your stock Goffs/Tatts or did you favour one over the other?

really annoyed about this. one of my fav horses. why can't they let these horse go on to achieve all they can before shipping them off to stud. i haven't even got to see the lil chap yet and if they didnt sell him i would have this weekend!!! one question for me as i know little/nothing about breeding horses is.. would his size be a concern?

Pot M,I agree when will the Dark Angel mania end? not at the moment that's for sure,I reckon Tony is doing what Gay did with him with Zebedee and good luck to him I'd say.

I hope Slick is having a go at putting some bread on the table herself this week![:laugh:

I shouldn't say this Pot M,but I only eat VERY expensive bread!The horses are her hobby.
We have about 60/40 60% going to NMKT imo its pretty much the best place to sell top class stock,saying that mind we have not done too badly this week,perhaps I can put some cheese on my bread now!

How small is he?

I don't know I've not seen him he was at Ascot but can't remember him,being by I.S. a son of GD he must be 15.2/3hh but remember he is only 2 so he will grow I'd say he would end up 15.3 a nice racy size.

Masterminded,Yes his size could be a problem but he is from the Danzig line they tend to be smallish sorts saying that mind you would not want a 'rat' going into the sale ring,you may remember Magic Ring a son of GD we had a foal by him it looked like my little pony when it was sold as a foal,it did win at 2 mind.By and large sons of Green Desert are on the small side Zebedee being a grandson seems to be no exception.

Northern Dancer was a small colt, with many reports judging his size from 14.2 hands to just over 15 hands in height. He didn't turn out too badly as a stallion.

small is about the only thing his careere as a stallion will have in common with ND

Some posting timings overlaps here!

I didn't think Zebedee looked too tiny that's for sure. I think if Northern Dancer was only 14.2 (and I think 15.1 or 2 is the reality) then Flaming Page must have been one hell of a girl!

Glad to hear about your cheese Prima, hope it's been more successful at Goffs than that god awful ready grated Cheddar

The size issue is a smokescreen - basically the owner had an offer that was too good to refuse.

But I think that Hannon and co know better than to peddle a fact that would disadvantage a potential stallion to put up a 'smokescreen'. Not a good way to keep the new client happy. There must be some truth in sizegate!

With all the trollocks about Zebedee's size would so much be said if he was by Green Desert?Would we all say 'well his sire is small'or 'GD is such a great sire'have you all forgotten Byron? talk about a pony or what15.2hh yet bus loads went to him without a 2nd look,why are we all all so hung up on this with a GR winning 2 y'old by one of GD best stallion sons.

i think he would have done fine at 3 and maybe gone on to much better things. i dont know if r hannon is slightly bitter about it all but i dont know why you would hint at him struggling at 3 if hes going off to stud?

I reckon Tony O'Callaghan will be shouting Hooray after today's result in the Cheveley Park,as I said above plenty of breeders will want Zebedee,sires on fire right now!

Yes it's funny how it goes, Prima. No-one would be interested in Frankel - rated 123 right now.
(your words not mine!)
But 109 rated Zebedee and you've 4 noms booked

(Sorry, forgive me but I couldn't couldn't resist [;)] )

How did I know that would be chucked back at meand by YOU![;)]I'm always the first to laugh at myself,mistakes I make lots of them!

Tony's new stallion sure does have plenty of appeal after today,how much do you think he will pitch him at?I was thinking 3.5/4k euros?

Well Gay stuck Dark Angel in at 10 didn't he. I don't know how much people actually paid but as you can imagine I thought that too high by far.

Tony has the advantage of following Dark Angel's successful experiment (and how!) so presumably there will be more potential users of a premature retiree.

I think you are too low Prima, as the offer for Zebedee must have been significant, I.S. as you say is hot hot hot once again and personally I liked his consistency  a lot more than D.A.

I would hazard around the 5.5/6 mark - with deals ofcourse.

You might be right about Zebedee's fee,I was thinking perhaps he will be lined up to replace Baltic King who faces his first runners next year,I'm not saying BK is going but as with any commercial set up if his first crop do nothing or show no promise he will be gone.
With I.S. knocking in the winners of decent 2'y old races with the promise of classy runners next year Tony must be rubbing his hands together.[;)]

Spot on Pot M,if you are out there!6k euros!!!He might be okay,but for me at the moment he seems a touch high deals available,is he any better a prospect than say Captain Gerrard?Similar profile both by hot sires CG has a better pedigree who did win a GR race at 3 who stands for 3.5k sterling but with all of them trading for a lot less if you deal.

I was talking to Roger about the horse at Tatts. I agree that 6 seems a touch high, but as you know I tend to worry about a 'cheap' horse and the perception that that engenders.

I certainly won't be shipping over to use him as his youth has a slight potential to negatively affect his fertility presumably? so all in all I think he's a leaver for me.

That's good news for all you guys out there who fancy a go then - the well known PotM curse will not be brought to bear on the poor chap after all.

whats the point, based on last weeks figs you need to get an absolute corker just to make a small profit anything else would produce a certain loss

Stop talking sense jonnyrotten or you'll be thrown off this forum. .

Jonnyrotten, hppe is what keeps us all going, don't you know we all have next years sale topper in our field now and have just sold the CH 2yo of 2011?
Zebedee is too much. I doubt we will use him at that price, the margins are tight enough without those sort of fees to start with.

sorry guys some would call me a pessimist, i like to think im a realist, keep putting myself in the dragons den, stand there and say hi guys my names jr i breed racehorses and






i'll get my coat!!!

Another 2y'old retires this year this time its Gimcrack winner Approve by Oasis Dream,this time its Tony's brother Gay O'Callaghann they are setting a trend.Always thought this colt looked a little monkey,knowing Gay O'Callaghan sure to stand him far too high,5/6k plenty for him I reckon.

Approve? Well I'm sure you all know whether I do or not. A bit jaded with this particular practice already! 3 similar 2yo's in aptitude anyway, all going to stud together (Showcasing no. 3) Without significant 3yo careers you can bet your bottom dollar there will be plenty of trainers with no great memories of these guys in 2 or 3 years time.

"you can bet your bottom dollar there will be plenty of trainers with no great memories of these guys in 2 or 3 years time."


That might be the case,but have no doubt they will all be all know Oasis Dream and Invisible Spirit and what those two sires have achieved,if they can't remember them then they only have to look in the front of the catalogue.

will all be all know........ffs I'm pi$$ed they will all know!!

Zebedee trading at 5k euro's now and not 6 as was said a while ago,nice looking colt,he's 15.3hh now at 2 years should make 16 hands.

I thought you'd be at Tatts Prima? How come you've been inspecting at Tally Ho?

I am at Tatt's Pot M and like you will be here this week,I have had plenty of time to go up to the Heath in the mornings watching some of ours working.I have not yet been to Tally Ho but will pay a visit shortly was speaking to Tony and Ann the other day but also to a few very good judges they all tell me Zebedee is a great looker they plan to use him,pity you don't!

**Anne**

There will be 170 mares covered for about 6k and then the 171st mare would be mine, standing me 10k say. Would you really have me do that? I don't think those odds stand close inspection -after all, even if you disagree with my chances, you can't disagree with the 50/50 chance of a filly!

I think you've said yourself that the margins are tight enough at this level.

Speaking to Tony O'Callaghan the other day he told me Zebedee had about 150 mares this term not as many as Bushranger had last year but has be welcomed by breeders both from here and the UK,with those numbers reckon he could be a safe bet to use 2nd season as being so precocious he surely must get plenty of 2 y'olds Hannon as well behind him,could this be a way to use big first book sizes to your advantage?

It's certainly an interesting thought if you believe in the horse, if you really believe in the horse. I assume you would have heard if he was unsuited to his current job in  attitude or aptitude Prima.

I know I'm a broken record (on this as so many other matters) but with 100+ 1st crop members, it's a
brilliant opportunity to p;ss of a ton of owners/trainers/agents.

100+ opportunities for innuendo, skewed statistics, status to plummet, any of which may be completely unfair to boot.

As I say, if you really believe in the horse!

Tell me this then did you firmly believe in say a stallion like Tiger Hill?Or did you listen to the bullmuck churned out by Darley?Just in case your wondering they did give me the hard sell once or at least try to I just laughed it off.........

My grammar was not the best as I should've said if 'one' believes in a horse - obviously not just you Prima

Now as we are all anonymous on here, you cannot possibly know whether I have ever used Tiger Hill Prima, so hypothetically. . .[;)]

If I had chosen such a stallion it would have been with a maiden I wished to start with a proven sire. The mare in question would have had to be by a broodmare sire who has a real track record with that sireline too. The Stallion should have had plenty of stakes winners and I would've imagined that using such as Tiger Hill following straight on from some very good books would've held plenty of appeal too.

One lesson I hope I have learned from here is not to be quite so precious as to what level I pitch a mare. I always try to place a mare as high as quality and funding allow and that can narrow you down too much for sure. With a ton of lovely mares that you may or may not have Prima in a way you are always going to 'under' cover a proportion of them as they can't all go to the superstars. I hope you understand the temptation though for someone like me, always trying to make a breakthrough, to try and push to another level - which sometimes can be one of many routes to a downfall, hypothetically you understand, ofcourse

150, wow, there was I thinking the only one of their's doing any decent business was Kodiac.  Did he say how many Baltic King had, maybe I should rephrase, did Baltic King cover any?

It might be worth seeing how Dark Angel's 2nd crop sell this autumn, similar profile to Zebedee although Dark Angel was better on the track.

I understand Pot M and yes some of the mares do get 'under covered' sure some get 'over done' too that's all part of it. Some of the cheap sires are very capable of getting good even very good runners,but if you want to sell maybe you don't use that sort but I know about becoming tempted with stallions always hopeful of the result,but when selling is the main focus,you need speed and preciosity not so sure your sire choice would.


PP,I didn't ask about the others in fact I didn't ask about Zebedee Tony was telling us but said he'd been busy with them all,I too doubt Baltic King's had many but like you I really like him my god there is a lot of him hope he does well.
I also agree Zebedee has a very similar profile to Dark Angel with a lot of runners he could just do the same lets hope so.

Bushranger the 2nd in the popularity stakes so far,this sire was ALWAYS going to be commercial.To all those breeders who were questioning whether he should go to stud remember its all about making money in this game,I bet lots on here would love to sell stock for more than ten times the stud fee!

certainly has done well PD. As opposed to Mastercraftsman.

Yes truehoncho you have a point there.I have said on here before Mastercraftsman is perhaps not one who would impress you as an individual,and as we have said on another thread its always what's in front of the buyers that's important and not as some breeders seem to be blinded by the page or fee of certain sires!

Nice bit of aftertiming here I see.  Personally I saw the Danetime logic more clearly than the Zebedee this time.  More than a wiff of momentum building to me - half his top lots look like homers to me (Julie Wood, Rathmoyle Export?? & Tally Ho)....but I could be wrong. 

Hope they're not spending all there money before seeing mine.

Aftertiming,aftertiming......don't make me laugh perhaps go back and have a look at post's on this thread from last year.And what's the Danetime logic you saw more clearly than Zebedee?

'Zebedee is too much. I doubt we will use him at that price, the margins are tight enough without those sort of fees to start with'

GL to them they clearly pick the right type to get some buzz about.  Bushranger imo was a much better horses at two, has a better sprint pedigree and Danetime 'does what it says on the tin' to satisfy the early type market more than IS.  Thats not to say that IS isnt hot / excellent stallion.  Just an opinion.