Bloodstock & Breeding
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
what do the brains trust think anybody rushing to use him?
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 61
|
By:
God, he's rated 109. I'm afraid I don't approve. I think it doesn't reflect well on the game and just gives a more powerful voice to those that claim flat racing is money led, fleeting and accordingly uninteresting.
He'd have found a berth if he didn't train on although at less money, but I think sometimes someone should do whats best for the greater good. . . |
|
By:
Wonder what happened to Dark angel he dis something similar, hate to see it, and if by some wonder he does turn out to be any good at stud, they're putting a glass ceiling over his head. Bad for the game. But It just goes to show that more conditions races for horses over 90 are needed to keep horses like this in training. Sad really, he wasn't even exposed
|
|
By:
Angel... didfew commas missing aswell, ahhh well
|
|
By:
"You never like losing one of your best horses, but Zebedee was only small and a sprinter through-and-through, so it would have been tough for him next season against the older speed merchants and I can quite understand Julie accepting an offer for him to stand at stud in Ireland.
"I will miss the little horse, though he cost me a monkey! - I bet Julie £500 at the start of the season that Auld Burns would end the year with a higher rating than Zebedee, and, though I remain conviced that Auld Burns will eventually reward my faith, I was always going to have to pay up on this one." So basically the trainer thinks he's small, unexceptional and wouldnt train on. I'm in for a few covers for sure. |
|
By:
potentialmillionaire 28 Sep 10 17:23
. I'm afraid I don't approve. I think it doesn't reflect well on the game and just gives a more powerful voice to those that claim flat racing is money led, It is had you not noticed? . yer ma 28 Sep 10 22:55 So basically the trainer thinks he's small, unexceptional and wouldnt train on. I'm in for a few covers for sure. Or you could take the view he is very precocious exceptional in winning 6 from7 starts including 2 GR races,Julie Wood has been offered a lot of money and why not,plenty of studs would be on for a sharp fast son of Invincible Spirit. I can remember plenty of people saying the same thing about Dark Angel but when it comes down to it we are in the game to make money,plenty have made it out of Dark Angel so why not this new son of Invincible Spirit? The fact he is on the small side don't forget he is a grandson of Green Desert,plenty of appeal with that sire line atm. |
|
By:
Why didn't they run him in the Abbaye, Markab is now out, he would have placed.
|
|
By:
going to stud at end of 2yo 5 month career, never contested a gp1 and no winning back type until the third dam... dont think i'd use him if he was free and begs all sorts of questions of over production responsibility
and Dark Angel did at least win a gp1 (of sorts) |
|
By:
Ofcourse the game is money led
 However we need a bigger picture if we are to keep everyone interested and ensure plenty of bystanders. Image is all for many, it's what governs our sire choices so strongly ( and regrettably ) so I think we pick and choose when to ignore it at our peril. This sort of retirement does no favours to public perception. |
|
By:
I entirely agree potm - at least she'll plough the funds back into buying more yearlings. Happy days in the doyle household ;)
|
|
By:
Good point yer ma. By and large Julie Wood seems a good egg - which is why I worry about where she chooses some of her counsel !
|
|
By:
Yeah I do understand where you are coming from,but the fact is if his sire goes on, and don't forget he has some expensive crops to go in the near future, then a fast early GR winning son of his will have a slot in the market,if also Lawman does well with his first crop then Zebedee will find plenty of buyers for his stock,providing he gets nice sorts,trainers will always be happy to get sharp sorts who poss' could win a sales race,they will be aware Zebedee was good enough for this.
Julie Wood spends a lot of money on yearlings and her training bill must be massive. Why shouldn't she cash one of her horses in if she is offered the chance to do so? After all next season (next month, next week...) the horse might be dead. That is the reality with horses, you take your profit when you can. As for taking the money and not doing what's best for the greater good or the sake of the sport, if we really believed in that or placed such store by it than wouldn't we either, race all of the stock we breed to provide a spectacle for the racegoers, or give the stock away to people who will race it as we are not driven by financial return? This game is not just a game, it is an industry and where there is money to made people will take the chance to make it. Whether that is Julie Wood selling the horses, Tony O'C standing him, or a mare owner selling the progeny they are aiming to make money. |
|
By:
Prima you are a little naughty in your 'interpretation' of my point
 I don't suggest for one minute that the game should be a philanthropic fantasy. (well certainly not when my lots pass through the ring anyway[;)] This is a high profile decision that doesn't reflect well and I think as I said earlier, that IF he hadn't trained on there would still have been a market for the horse for all the reasons you stated. Incidentally, I am waiting for tomorrow to be over and then I shall be quizzing you on all matters Goffs! Hopefully Rip Van and a few others may come out of the woodwork and we'll have the proper inside track. |
|
By:
Pot M, I may have taken your point to it's outermost limits
 but I was just highlighting where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable to make a profit on a foal and a yearling but not a 2yo in a stallion deal? Why do we need to see if he trains on, if whether he does or not doesn't affect his value?As for all of the hand wringing about how badly this affects public perception, I just don't buy it. The perception of who? To my mind you are either a Racing person, to whom decisions like this are not unheard of and can be accepted with a philosophical shrug of the shoulders and the time honoured phrase "That's Racing" or there is Joe Public who couldn't really care less about whether Zebedee races on at 3yo as they are unlikely to know who he is or remember him next season. It has also been my experience that many of the 'public' are very taken by how much these horses cost they seem to think they are all worth millions. If they have seen Zebedee, and remembered him, and then found out that he has been sold for loadsamoney as a stallion I am sure they would impressed that they had actually seen him in the flesh. Much has been made in the wider horse world about the stud value of STS, even making the mainstream national media, I really don't see that retiring early has any detriment to the public perception at all. I was at Goffs for a time yesterday but I haven't been today. I cannot spend all of my time socialising and enjoying boozy lunches at the sales..... I have to make the money that Slick spends!! Slick has spent all of her time there the last few days and will be there again tomorrow. She has kept me updated on the results of ours going through. |
|
By:
There's just the endless refrain about horses on the flat not sticking around and a 'narrative' or the longeivity of jump horses, and the public getting favourites etc etc.
I'm probably just playing devils advocate and whilst I'm never going to approve of a sound horse being prematurely retired, as you say this particular case is hardly earth shattering. AND this Dark Angel mania - when will it end?! In my opinion he had no profile, and no one can expect him to justify these figures can they. But every time I have a waver about putting confirmation first, well something like this pulls me up again! P.S. I hope Slick is having a go at putting some bread on the table herself this week! Have you balanced your stock Goffs/Tatts or did you favour one over the other? |
|
By:
really annoyed about this. one of my fav horses. why can't they let these horse go on to achieve all they can before shipping them off to stud. i haven't even got to see the lil chap yet and if they didnt sell him i would have this weekend!!! one question for me as i know little/nothing about breeding horses is.. would his size be a concern?
|
|
By:
Pot M,I agree when will the Dark Angel mania end? not at the moment that's for sure,I reckon Tony is doing what Gay did with him with Zebedee and good luck to him I'd say.
I hope Slick is having a go at putting some bread on the table herself this week |
|
By:
small is about the only thing his careere as a stallion will have in common with ND
|
|
By:
Some posting timings overlaps here!
I didn't think Zebedee looked too tiny that's for sure. I think if Northern Dancer was only 14.2 (and I think 15.1 or 2 is the reality) then Flaming Page must have been one hell of a girl! Glad to hear about your cheese Prima, hope it's been more successful at Goffs than that god awful ready grated Cheddar |
|
By:
The size issue is a smokescreen - basically the owner had an offer that was too good to refuse.
|
|
By:
But I think that Hannon and co know better than to peddle a fact that would disadvantage a potential stallion to put up a 'smokescreen'. Not a good way to keep the new client happy. There must be some truth in sizegate!
|
|
By:
With all the trollocks about Zebedee's size would so much be said if he was by Green Desert?Would we all say 'well his sire is small'or 'GD is such a great sire'have you all forgotten Byron? talk about a pony or what15.2hh yet bus loads went to him without a 2nd look,why are we all all so hung up on this with a GR winning 2 y'old by one of GD best stallion sons.
 |
|
By:
i think he would have done fine at 3 and maybe gone on to much better things. i dont know if r hannon is slightly bitter about it all but i dont know why you would hint at him struggling at 3 if hes going off to stud?
|
|
By:
I reckon Tony O'Callaghan will be shouting Hooray after today's result in the Cheveley Park,as I said above plenty of breeders will want Zebedee,sires on fire right now!
|
|
By:
Yes it's funny how it goes, Prima. No-one would be interested in Frankel - rated 123 right now.
(your words not mine!) But 109 rated Zebedee and you've 4 noms booked (Sorry, forgive me but I couldn't couldn't resist [;)] ) |
|
By:
How did I know that would be chucked back at me
and by YOU![;)]I'm always the first to laugh at myself,mistakes I make lots of them! |
|
By:
|
|
By:
Tony's new stallion sure does have plenty of appeal after today,how much do you think he will pitch him at?I was thinking 3.5/4k euros?
|
|
By:
Well Gay stuck Dark Angel in at 10 didn't he. I don't know how much people actually paid but as you can imagine I thought that too high by far.
Tony has the advantage of following Dark Angel's successful experiment (and how!) so presumably there will be more potential users of a premature retiree. I think you are too low Prima, as the offer for Zebedee must have been significant, I.S. as you say is hot hot hot once again and personally I liked his consistency a lot more than D.A. I would hazard around the 5.5/6 mark - with deals ofcourse. |
|
By:
You might be right about Zebedee's fee,I was thinking perhaps he will be lined up to replace Baltic King who faces his first runners next year,I'm not saying BK is going but as with any commercial set up if his first crop do nothing or show no promise he will be gone.
With I.S. knocking in the winners of decent 2'y old races with the promise of classy runners next year Tony must be rubbing his hands together.[;)] |
|
By:
Spot on Pot M,if you are out there!6k euros!!!
 He might be okay,but for me at the moment he seems a touch high deals available,is he any better a prospect than say Captain Gerrard?Similar profile both by hot sires CG has a better pedigree who did win a GR race at 3 who stands for 3.5k sterling but with all of them trading for a lot less if you deal. |
|
By:
I was talking to Roger about the horse at Tatts. I agree that 6 seems a touch high, but as you know I tend to worry about a 'cheap' horse and the perception that that engenders.
I certainly won't be shipping over to use him as his youth has a slight potential to negatively affect his fertility presumably? so all in all I think he's a leaver for me. That's good news for all you guys out there who fancy a go then - the well known PotM curse will not be brought to bear on the poor chap after all.  |
|
By:
whats the point, based on last weeks figs you need to get an absolute corker just to make a small profit anything else would produce a certain loss
 |
|
By:
Stop talking sense jonnyrotten or you'll be thrown off this forum. .
|
|
By:
Jonnyrotten, hppe is what keeps us all going, don't you know we all have next years sale topper in our field now and have just sold the CH 2yo of 2011?
Zebedee is too much. I doubt we will use him at that price, the margins are tight enough without those sort of fees to start with. |
|
By:
sorry guys some would call me a pessimist, i like to think im a realist, keep putting myself in the dragons den, stand there and say hi guys my names jr i breed racehorses and
i'll get my coat!!! |