FRANKEL

Correct.

Phew

maybe not but could Kind be the next Hasili?

i agree!

Cant think why the first conclusion would be non stayer.  Virtually all evidence is to the contrary. Half brother stays, Dam's siblings stayed, Grandam stayed and by the rolls royce (STS aside) of derby winners.  Henrys just cooling everyones jets, so to speak.

yer ma, if in your %'s 50% represents 'virtually all' well your maths is as bad as mine! Kind represents 1/2 of Frankels genetic make up. She is a sprinting daughter of Danehill and on telly at least Frankel seems to be physically that side of the deal.

Do you really see that sort of incredible kick being available (twice!) at the end of a mile and a half?

Don't think he'll get the Derby trip myself, way too quick a horse, he's a miler

He may not,but to me he has so much class the way he goes he is the sort that 10f will potentially be his optimum trip but he has so much class in hand that class will get the 12f if asked,I doubt anyone who understands breeding is ever going to think that Galileo is going to 'decrease' the stamina of any foal regardless of its dam.
Only last year we had St.Nicholas Abbey winning over a mile at 2 at GR1 level,plenty of people were sure then that because he had won over a mile he could NOT win over a mile at 3 and would need a trip to reproduce his best,how is Frankle any different to him I sure as hell can't see it myself.

You had a boozy lunch Prima?

Montjeu does 11/2 miles regardless of the dam, Galileo doesn't (Rip Van, Nightime etc).

St Nick and Frankel are  very different physical types and right now Frankel is touting more brilliance and that is harder to sustain over a trip.

Not sure on your point of Galileo not 'decreasing' stamina but I agree with the premise!

He could last home on brilliance, but to win at Epsom, well 19 of 20 winners genuinely stay the trip - and need to I feel.

Yes Montjeu certainly does get a high % of 12f horses. But Galileo is very adept at getting stamina as well. Both examples you have used above are from speedily bred mares. RVW out of a Stravinsky mare and Nightime out of an Indian Ridge mare. Add in that Nightime only won her races on heavy or yielding I wouldn't think she was a good example of a true miler. Maybe more of a slogger who coped with conditions better than her rivals.

Galileo would never be considered as a sire to speed up a mare and if you look at Frankels pedigree there is plenty to give hope that a mile and a half would be well within his compass at 3yo. His dam, although a 5-6f mare is a half sister to Powerscourt and out of a Lancashire Oaks winner. She is a daughter of Rainbow Quest and has already bred a 1m 2yo and 11f 3yo in Bullet Train ( closely related to Frankel)

As for sustaining brilliance over a trip I think that perhaps that can happen and that Frankels owner/breeders also raced the living proof of that about 20yrs ago!

BTW I did enjoy a 'nice' lunch today, at the Curragh.

Pretty sure this is what ^ I said.  Its as likely Kind is the anomaly in the line and stamina is as likely to be prevalent.  Henry has her half sister 2yo who is due out next week...starting at a mile (and by Dansili).

Interesting to note that Galileo and Montjeu (of all their winners) 27% and 28% of wins came at 11-12f.

If Galileo, or any other stallion for that matter was to speed up Kind, then the offspring wouldn't get 3 furlongs!

I think that Kind, given her sire and her aptitude, would have to be considered speedy first and foremost. Therefore despite her staying family members she must be taken as perfectly likely to transmit those characteristics if she chooses. Galileo is similarly capable of following her distance forte, much more so than Montjeu I think.

Ah, memories indeed. I still haven't forgiven that partisan French cameraman who got stuck on Bering so not allowing us a full view of that stunning finishing 'sweep'. Perhaps my finest racing memory to date. Let's hope I'm wrong and Frankel does something similar

Pot M,I think you are missing my point,no-one is suggesting that Galileo would speed up Kind just that he IS a stamina sire and wouldn't be on the list if you were looking to speed up a staying mare.
Galileo whilst not getting such a narrow distance aptitude range as Montjeu is still not as wide ranging as the likes of Danehill you cant expect ever to see a July Cup winner by Galileo the majority of his stock would tend to the upper ranges.

One thing I think we should all be mindful of though is that he has not beaten anything that anyone would even remotely consider to be a Classic contender next year. I'd mention this on the Frankel thread on Ante post but it's already packedThe last 2 2 year olds I can remember outclassing their rivals so easily at this stage were St Nick and Rainbow View and while both went on to be very good in RV's case Gr 1 winning three year olds well... you know yourself. I'm always suspicious now of anything that isn't very big and shows as much speed when looking at next years classics, Ps I think he'd be a certainty in the L'Abbaye, what a poor race that is

the followed by le, and I do French at University

I understand your point Prima now, it just seemed a little out of context to the thread of this subject maybe. Ofcourse he won't shorten up a mare, but I thought we were discussing how likely he was to 'lengthen' the mare in this case!

P.S. Will you add one of my mares to your own when you come to book in at Banstead, for a discounted Frankel nom.

If something happened could he retire to stud on what he has done now?

I understand your point Prima now, it just seemed a little out of context to the thread of this subject maybe. Ofcourse he won't shorten up a mare, but I thought we were discussing how likely he was to 'lengthen' the mare in this case

Coming from her family I'd say Galileo will 'lengthen'the stamina of Kind,I don't know we must see something different he is not one I have down as a 2'y old only,he looks all class to me as I said with his stamina laden family if he trains on and if HRAC runs him at Epsom his class will get him home.
One other thing Pot M have you seen St Nicholas Abbey?He is NOT a typical Montjeu he is very much like Sadlers Wells,I hope Frankle goes on unlike SNA who imo Ballydoyle F'ed-up this spring,with that in mind HRA is the best man for Frankle.


neill d,

If something happened could he retire to stud on what he has done now?

He could but doubt he would get many takers,being a GR winning 2y'old by Galileo he will have some appeal,all the comments about the size of Frankle have people already forgot Sadlers Wells?

Just thinking about it now if you are all so sure Frankel won't stay because of the speed of his dam given that he is by stamina sire Galileo out of the speedy Kind,then perhaps look at this way Cape Blanco is also out of the speedy Laurel Delight he does stay 12f well and given that Frankel is a 3 parts bro' to Bullet Train I don't follow your logic at all.

I believe Henry Cecil is on record as saying he doesn't believe Bullet Train genuinely stays 12 furlongs. A fact substantiated by only one of the finishers from the Lingfield Derby Trial having subsequently won and that was over 10 furlongs.

That's a valid point Equi'but think how easy Frankel moves much much better than B'Train,we all don't know yet but I'm thinking if F' does train on and I can't see why not then imo that's where the his class will come into play everything looks so easy to him horses that move like that find Epsom very easy indeed,none of us know if he will line up next June but if he does then I don't think his potential stamina limitations will hinder him one bit.

Well I think the 'agree to disagree' clause needs to be invoked here.
He may stay -Dad or not -Mum. I think he is too 'brilliant' right now to give me Prima Donna's confidence.

Hope he does though, I'm sure we'd all like to bring back the See The Stars vibe!

I think Neild that if something befell him right now then they'd be inundated. Recent history is full of prematurely retired colts proving popular and comparisons to Teofilo are obvious to everyone. I think he will be due a pretty respectable rating that they could market and I think pitching the fee would be their only conundrum.

Right now he's too exciting to overlook.

Pot M,You can never be confident in this game as I'm sure you know,but saying that I have seen enough horses to know Frankel is something very special I don't know if his connections will go to Epsom yet but I suspect if he wins the GNS then almost certainly he will line up,I see the next target is the Dewhurst from what we have seen it looks his race for the taking,I would agree that comparisons will be drawn with Teofilo ONCE he wins a Dewhurst then he as you say he would be very popular,mind you talking of his physical sort he is very different to Teofilo that colt was scopey but did not go on F is a nice racy sort,btw did you ever see SNA?

Sorry Prima, I forgot to respond to that question earlier.

No I've not seen St Nicho, so I bow to your superiors on that. I thought he was fairly Montjeu from my telly studies, quite high head and a bit lighter than Sadlers or so I guessed.

Juddmonte must be beside themselves with excitement about Frankel. I know that in their understated way they also rely on putting up a stallion prospect regularly to help fund the show.
I thought that the way he flew round the others on the bend and then went again was destined to stay in the mind a long time.