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Prima Donna
16 Sep 10 09:35
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Date Joined: 29 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 4,152 | Blogger: Prima Donna's blog
With the news this colt is going off to Newsells Park are breeders going to pile in?We don't know yet how much he will stand for,we await the fee announcement,but coming from such a slow pedigree without much class are we all going to be blinded by the fact he is a high class fast son of the very commercial Acclamation?He has had his problems one of which is  a wind operation,should this put us off him?Add on to that he raced in Spain for a time in pretty moderate races is he a sound choice or one to leave well alone?I could imagine with Newsells they will have him at the top bracket for his sort.What do you all reckon,thumbs up or down.
Pause Switch to Standard View Equiano sound choice or not?
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Report neill d September 16, 2010 12:11 PM BST
Having started in Spain, wouldn't it be impossible to measure his level of precocity
Report Johnny_Mustang September 16, 2010 12:52 PM BST
He ran 6 times at two, I think. Made is debut over 4f in Madrid in May, came 2nd of eleven. So you could assume he was fairly precocious.
Report Johnny_Mustang September 16, 2010 12:52 PM BST
^ his
Report Prima Donna September 16, 2010 12:53 PM BST
I suppose it would really,he was out in May running over 4 furlongs,god alone knows how to equate that form,but he did win over an extended 6f in Aug' if we take it at face value of winning at that trip then going on to win a GR2 race in France over 5f at 3 then running in the UK winning the Kings Stand GR1,he has gone well beyond what his page would suggest in terms of speed and class,but imo if a runner from a moderate family suddenly becomes a top class runner and being by a good emerging speed sire that's where the class comes from it would be very unusual indeed if Equiano can himself 'upgrade' his mares as stallions like him tend to produce stock akin to his own family,an example of this sort is a sire like Where or When.
Then add his wind problem I for one don't think I will be ringing Newsells Park just yet,but reading he has almost 70 mares booked already he does have a chance,I wonder if being by Acclamation will it blind  breeders to think he is certain to add speed to their mares?
Report yer ma September 16, 2010 1:02 PM BST
Id have a look but with his sire at about £10k why not go to the source.  Id also worry Newsells will mark him too high (esp if you suggest there are 70 takers already)
Report yer ma September 16, 2010 1:03 PM BST
To somewhat contradict myself, I was looking with some dismay at my UK choices for next year so anything decent new has a chance
Report Prima Donna September 16, 2010 1:15 PM BST
Yeah sure anything new will get a chance I'm sure if he gets nice first crop foals and if Acclamation goes on they will most likely sell well,he might be one to use FIRST season only,but I doubt he will overall be any good,I have my doubts about using stallions with 1,a very weak page 2,History of wind problems.I agree the UK sires that we all want (at a price) look very thin on the ground for next year.
Report potentialmillionaire September 16, 2010 5:34 PM BST
Now Prima. Given that you are quite keen on colts retiring quite early whilst their glory and reputations are quite shiny, I suppose that you could say that Equiano might have gone after his 3yo career and Kings Stand victory.
Perhaps not with the greatest reputation but maybe he would have sneaked a place.
As you've guessed, my point being that we would all have been none the wiser about any wind infirmity! Incidentally how wise is everyone now? Do we know exactly what surgical proceedure was performed?
I suspect that wind issues force a lot of quite early retirements. 'Allegedly' (does that give me journalistic immunityLaugh) Nureyev, Storm Bird, Zafonic & Pivotal to name four.
I do not like the thought of a wind problem on a potential stallion one bit. However Equiano showed all sorts of toughness and resilliance over quite a searching career so - well you can't have it all can you. (OK, those of you that can go and book your Galileo and Oasis Dreams when you log off)
I too worry about his fee and his pedigree, but he will certainly be on a shortlist, 1st season anyway. But what the hell is he doing with 70 enquiries already? There is a god awful recession on people !
Report Prima Donna September 16, 2010 8:36 PM BST
I do not like the thought of a wind problem on a potential stallion one bit. However Equiano showed all sorts of toughness and resilliance over quite a searching career so - well you can't have it all can you.

No that's true but when I think of the fact he had apart from his wind problem a stress fracture  couple that with a very weak pedigree,can you along with others perhaps compromise on both?If he had an outstanding page or was always tough remaining sound throughout his career then perhaps I could forgive his frailty's but mix them all into this potential stallion I'm not so sure.
He needs to be at say 5/6k but I reckon people will forget all of those aspects of him only being able to see Acclamation.
Report potentialmillionaire September 16, 2010 10:13 PM BST
Prima, I haven't seen the horse, is he a chip off the old block? I'm certainly not going to get very excited if you tell me he's all Ela Mana Mou!

I would be happy with him at £8k but I fear 10 is more likely. But he is as you say Prima an ill bred sprinter. They don't make great sires Johnny W, remember that.
Report Prima Donna September 17, 2010 6:47 AM BST
No Pot M I have not seen the horse with a view of using him I did see him racing this year at Ascot but he's not one I remember anything significant about saying that mind its hard to think back in detail.
If he does stand for 8k if it were me I think I'd do what yer ma suggests and go to the source for a touch more I reckon you will get a lot more for your stock when you sell,I think that when it comes to sale time all of Equianos minus points will be on buyers minds.
But good luck to you and all others if you use him,with 70 odd mares seemingly booked already he does have his chance,when I read that I did think that's Julian Dollar's bull-muck but it may be the case,what they are not telling us is that 69 of those mares belong to Newsells Park!Devil
Report potentialmillionaire September 17, 2010 7:20 PM BST
Thanks Prima.
I've lost track of the times I've been thinking about a 1st season sire's minus points but then it comes to sale time - I'm the only one!

If they look great, then he'll have a great sale and will probably outsell a lot of sires the same as every year when the hot new boys come to the table.

Do you remember River Falls and Emperor Jones Laugh
Report Prima Donna September 17, 2010 8:12 PM BST
Shall I take it Pot M you WILL be calling Julian Dollar soon?Yes I remember those two along with the great Rock City,in fact I knew well someone who had a half brother to River Falls his was by Rock City,with the combination of those two you've guessed it the colt was utterly useless,I remember the colt it was so strong it looked like a US quarter horse,so long ago now can't remember what it was called.
Report potentialmillionaire September 17, 2010 8:46 PM BST
And whilst we're doing memory lane! My first ever pinhook was a 1st crop Rock City.

I firmly believe that ignorance is a great thing pinhooking - certainly the more knowledgable I became the worse I got at it - he had a crooked old knee which I never spotted and he was only a 5k foal.
So I took him to the St Leger and he was a very classy looking yearling - still crocked - but someone took a chance and he made 14k and all of a sudden I was Timmy Hyde!
Then of course I learned all about 'faults' and used to avoid buying any, always chasing a correct horse. But of course that meant I was buying pig ordinary horses with no flair that no-one wanted, so that's when I started with the mares!
Report Prima Donna September 17, 2010 10:05 PM BST
When pinhooking I think we all can 'overthink'the whole thing,just look back at those great sales toppers who have nosedived once they set foot on a racecourse,do you remember the great Yankiedoodle I was in the ring that day at Tatts a cool million quid and what for?He sure does look expensive,yet plenty of cheapies can and do make great runners.
We don't really pinhook as we tend to have plenty enough of homebreds but saying that I will be looking this year for a filly with a view to resell next year,but I too know what the market wants and can forgive some faults you need a horse to look like it will do the job NOT some show horse who can't do anything other than look good.
Report Prima Donna September 19, 2010 9:44 AM BST
What do breeders think of the chances of another Acclamation stallion in Gay O'Callaghan's Dark Angel?Facing his 4th season I know its a huge gamble using him but being by Acclamation who has shown us he is very capable of 'upgrading' his mares and from a fast family with a touch of class,is he worth a shout at 5k euros.
I like his BM sire Machiavellian but I'm not so keen on his colour grey but I could live with it,as he was such a good early fast 2'year old.Has anyone used him if so does he get good sorts?They seem to of sold quite well so far,TBH he is one I've over looked so far.
Report potentialmillionaire September 19, 2010 7:57 PM BST
He's slipped through my net too Prima. Mind you I enlarged the holes to make doubly sure that he did so.

It was the most unbelievably cynical act to retire this horse when they did. He was rated 114, but god only knows how they got him that high. If he'd improved 5lbs at 3 they wouldn't have been able to ask any higher fee for him and in my opinion he wouldn't have done so.

He was beaten into 2nd last place on his final start in the Dewhurst and was pretty inconsistent throughout.

Whilst sitting upon my high horse, you can imagine my pleasure when they dared to show a portrait of him in the stallion publications and he looked plain, roach backed and thoroughly ordinary.

And here we are in 2010. Selling like hot cakes and further proof to my supposition that if a 1st season sires stock looks the part, no one seems to give a monkey's cuss whether they spent their career hurtling round Tattenham Corner or pulling a Dray up Epsom High St. . .
Report Prima Donna September 19, 2010 10:23 PM BST
How true that is Pot M. Breeders and Buyers do have short memories.I remember him going to stud,rushed off on the back of Acclamation's success and a couple of Gr wins to advertise. I thought at the time that he was overpriced and was surprised to see some of the people that used him. Scroll on a couple of years and now I'm thinking he might be ok and did I miss the boat? The problem with the commercial game is that you are always trying to second-guess everyone else, then you tend to go round in ever decreasing circles and end up totally confused about where you started.

Those are good points you have raised about the horse looking thoroughly ordinary combined with being a grey (which I hate) perhaps I was right to leave well alone.

Next question, your thoughts on Dandy Man and Captain Marvelous?Grin
Report bucko68 September 20, 2010 1:56 PM BST
Is it common for a sire with wind problems to produce stock with similar wind problems?
Report potentialmillionaire September 20, 2010 8:05 PM BST
Bucko68, yes frequently, but not always!

Prima, I'm not sure how tongue in cheek you were about two more 'great prospects' !

Luckily I haven't had to lose too much sleep over Dandy and Captain ( see, they even sound like Riding School dobbins! ) because I wouldn't look to send mares over for a cheapy unless there was a hell of a good reason. Joe hasn't put them in either of our main stallion publications, so does that mean they are purely aimed at the Irish market or were they just too late?

Just back from his website. Is Dandy Man as smart as he looks? Perhaps he has some appeal after all! Captain Marvellous i think I'll leave to others for now.
Report Prima Donna September 20, 2010 8:28 PM BST
Prima, I'm not sure how tongue in cheek you were about two more 'great prospects' !Oh I am Pot MGrin

Captain Marvellous is a very good looking young sire and being by In'Spirit also a GR2 winning 2y'old who was GR1 placed and could be in with a shout as he is a cheap route into what's hot atm.

Dandy Man imo has a very similar profile to Acclamation but is a much better looking individual,from a fast and class pedigree,have a closer look at him and compare him to Acclamation note his pedigree pure early speed,anything Amadeus Wolf does next year can only help Dandy Man.

Just back from his website. Is Dandy Man as smart as he looks? Yes he is a great looking sire imo he could be a great prospect.
Report potentialmillionaire September 20, 2010 9:11 PM BST
anything Amadeus Wolf does next year can only help Dandy Man.

  When A.W. lands his 1st winner in a Southwell seller in November, I'm sure all at Ballyhane will be delighted!

Sorry Prima, couldn't resist [;)] Silly
Report Prima Donna September 20, 2010 9:15 PM BST
LaughYes but Dandy Man is new and has a better page than A.Wolf,sounds like you don't rate him at all[:o]
Report potentialmillionaire September 20, 2010 9:36 PM BST
No, I was just pulling your Leg in case that's how A.W. ends up and your comment would then become rather amusing!

He wasn't on my radar either, but they are commercially strong so far aren't they.

I would have been happier to have been more clued up for a 1st season jaunt to D.M but I'll follow him perhaps now a little better.
Report Prima Donna September 20, 2010 10:01 PM BST
Pot M we have used A.Wolf first time and had a nice sort we then used him again,so we will be hoping he does well next term we have a nice filly going into training by him.
Using him 2nd season if he does do an 'Acclamation'selling yearlings off the back of that we should all do well,as he is only low money the risk is not so big.

A former poster on this forum called gorgeousgeorge started a thread called 'I skate to where the puc is going to be not where is has been'Dandy Man imo is just the sort that fits george's criteria.
Report potentialmillionaire September 20, 2010 10:11 PM BST
Nicely put - mind you so was your 'ever decreasing circles' except my circles are squares and I can't get round the bloody corners!

Are all your yearlings going well? I assume you are selling at G and T. Is Slick walking her box yet? Have you put some Cribox on the neck of the Gin bottle? Laugh
Report Prima Donna September 20, 2010 10:38 PM BST
Yearlings are going fine to the best of my knowledge. I haven't heard about any major dramas anyway! Book 1 horses have just gone to the Consignors for the final finish so Slick has calmed down for a moment.She will be at G and T though I doubt I'll make it to both. Have yours been smooth?

As for Cribox on the Gin, I wouldn't dare [>o]
Report neill d September 20, 2010 11:09 PM BST
I'd say they were v dissapointed they never managed a group 1 with Dandy, stayed in training a very long time and became associated with failure for me. Bit of a Famous Name job in that way.
Report Prima Donna September 20, 2010 11:22 PM BST
Yes but that's down to the stupid outfit who ended up with him Godawful ruin many prospects like this sort thank god he came out of the tardis in time,a great pity he left Tracey Collins should never of ended up with God'I know T.C well she has said a number of times D.Man was very good,a fast colt who could quicken again thank god he is not with Darley,I like him reckon he has a real chance.
Report potentialmillionaire September 21, 2010 11:11 AM BST
My yearlings are fine Prima, slinging me round at the end of a rope/lunge, turning upside down. All the usual stuff and I'm quite impressed that I'm still up to it!

I'm getting a bit miffed about Dandy Man mind though. I get on well with Joe so it wouldn't have taken a great leap of faith to use one of his horses again and I like a 1st seasoner as much as the next man. Mind you in all truth I hadn't really got a mare to fit this season. And I would like to see a bit more marketing over here.

It's interesting about his Godolphin failures, but at least he kept a profile while he was running here there and everywhere. The old 'no publicity. . .' bit probably has some truth to it here, providing ofcourse his foals spring out of those boxes looking strong and shiny next November.

It is still quite galling though to efectively double your fee - or more - on a cheapy, by the action of sending the mare to Ireland ( or UK in your case )
Report Prima Donna September 21, 2010 1:25 PM BST
I know what you mean about Joe Pot M,I always think he can be a bit vague when promoting his sires,perhaps he was busy with him so didn't need to give breeders the hard sell I have not seen him yet but will find out how many mares he got this term.
They seem to have a good profile without shouting from the roof tops,that would change if I was in charge,Dandy Man imo will still be acceptable despite Godawful's intervention,if anyone wants a sire to get a classy sharp 2 'old he is one high on my list,he is just the right stamp of stallion to get this sort,we will be sending him one or two next year,I can't think of anything in England off the top of my head that offers the same classy speed for that sort of money,I can't remember how much you pay to get a mare over here but I reckon it could be worth it,your choice over with you looks very poor in comparison to us.
If you are thinking about him deal hard with Joe you will get value always ready to talk.
Report potentialmillionaire September 21, 2010 9:27 PM BST
I'll keep thinking Prima. At home I walk in - so no kicked mares, ill foals, underfed/trimmed/handled foals, keep, transport (except diesel) etc etc. As before I need to be super confident in my choice before I travel them!
Report Prima Donna September 21, 2010 9:54 PM BST
Well Pot M,if it helps you because I know what its like sending mares off that look well only to see them return looking poor(it drives me mad as no keep is 'cheap')we sent one last year to Ballyhane she came back looking super just how you want them to look,we don't have any boarding mares here as its a private stud else I would be delighted to help,I know that's not much help being,in C' Kildare we are not that far from Ballyhane,just look at him again on the website............you know he's a good prospect esp' for that money,but of course that's for you to decide.Happy
Report potentialmillionaire September 22, 2010 5:11 PM BST
Thanks Prima.Grin
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