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11 Sep 10 20:39
Date Joined: 17 Mar 10
| Topic/replies: 2,672 | Blogger: potentialmillionaire's blog
Which 'speed' stallions at an affordable level - say up to 20k would you guys trust to put on a stamina mare?

I am not really a fan of hybrid matings as you probably know, but the expensive top stallions can do the job without producing a sprinter with no speed or a stayer that doesn't get home.

Point me in the direction of my next devastating matings if you would Laugh

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Report Posh Paddy September 11, 2010 9:48 PM BST
Not that I'm learned but Zamindar?
Report Stormbird September 12, 2010 5:35 PM BST
Iffraaj good value.
Report Prima Donna September 12, 2010 7:24 PM BST
Pot M,what is your mare by?Do her stock tend to want a trip?
Report potentialmillionaire September 12, 2010 8:26 PM BST
New mare, Prima. Mr P sireline but I wouldn't be frightened to cross back that way, as no soundness issues.

Zamindar would be the sort of thing as he is a bit hybrid too, but I'm after commercial commercial commercial. Ifraaj is too early to say what he's up to I suppose and I would like there to be a few less ordinary ones given what he is likely to go up to next year. Do you and Slick think he is the real deal, Prima? Given that I thought 3yo + would be his game, he can't be ignored.

The mare could go anywhere from a pedigree point of view.
Report Prima Donna September 12, 2010 8:56 PM BST
potentialmillionaire Joined: 17 Mar 10
Replies: 328 12 Sep 10 20:26   
New mare, Prima. Mr P sireline but I wouldn't be frightened to cross back that way,I'm after commercial commercial commercial.
Pot M,Its hard to say what is commrecial,You could look at Zamindar but doubt he is going to sharpen anything up,thats not to say he can't just look at Zarkava and of course Zenda both out of mares by staying sires,Medicen is another who is in your price range at 15k from th MrP sire line gets fast sorts in Dutch Art and good fillies like Nannina.
You may also think about Shamardal but I reckon he may go up a bit and you may also think he is still a bit new,Acclamation is fast and has already produced Dark Angle from a MrP line mare and ATM he is commercial.What do you reckon?Failing that mind you could always send her to the States  for a cover to Street Cry Laugh
Report potentialmillionaire September 12, 2010 9:38 PM BST
Z is a no no I'm afraid - commercial reasons.

I like Acclamation, but I think he is a speed sire through and through and should be treated as such. Royal Applause didn't work well enough with a better sturdier type of mate.

I would perhaps have plumped Medicean this year but was too late. He is the right type though. I suppose he may go the wrong way in the affordable commercial market if the 2yo,s don't become a little more obvious.

I think Shamardal should remain at the fee he is - whilst others drop - so perhaps he would be a goer. You like him don't you Prima, have you many on the ground? Can they get a bit big?

The silly thing is that she would be nailed on Danehill, but just when it seems that there is nothing else at stud, I am scratching my head to find one at the right price!

All suggestions remain welcome. Affordable ways of quickening up a mare without creating a tripless wonder!
Report DMCK September 13, 2010 12:30 AM BST
Choisir, a sprinter by a sprinter by a sprinter
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 6:47 AM BST
If you sell as a foal then I would be happy enough with a nice colt by Acclamation as you know punters will take a chance with a foal,but maybe if I where you then get her on Medicean as he has a couple of 30k crops going for him he can do it he might look a good bet with him I'd sell as a yearling.
You can use as DMCK says Choisir but standing in AUS' your transport bill will be massive Laughis your mare from a staying family Pot M?
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 6:47 AM BST
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 6:58 AM BST
Sorry its far too early yes we have used Shamardal we have a mare in-foal this year I think we have a yearling as well,he has done well I told Slick that you thought he should stay at the same fee............she agrees with you and said apart from his French colt what else has he done to warrent him standing for more!But ATM he is one to use along with Ifraaj who does look like Darley have some nice sorts at last!
Report jmc27 September 13, 2010 11:55 AM BST
Medicean always has a few that get 6 figures and seems to have a good sale rate/return worth a punt at 15k
Report potentialmillionaire September 13, 2010 3:43 PM BST
Thanks DMCK, as Prima Donna is going to pay the shipping costs I could go Choisir [;)]

However I am not trying to reinvent the wheel and I very much doubt this mare could throw a sprinter and I don't want to try. Other than the known speed horses - DD, Piv., Oasis - that will 'graft' speed onto a staying page (and charge accordingly!) I think that speed is best kept to it's own type.

What I need is a poor mans version of the above 3. I do put speed stallions onto mares occaisionally with only commercial thoughts in mind. But it breaks my heart to do that knowing that I am not giving the mare every chance to breed a good'un, so I try to find a balance between the two whenever possible.

Prima, she is a mile/ mile and 2 family and the filly herself was best at 1m2f but without enough toe to make it big time, but rated in the 90's.
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 4:25 PM BST
Listening to what your saying Pot M I'd say try Medicean your mare is his trip and he does give you a chance of a faster horse,and as I said above 2 30k crops to run I reckon he is a chance worth taking,or if you want to try a unproven sire what about Mount Nelson?Very good looking colt I saw him in training many times,I know a couple of commercial breeders who have sent him mares,myself I'd keep away from son's of Pivotal unless you want a nice 4 y'old,if that's the case you could go for Beat Hollow!!!
Report jmc27 September 13, 2010 7:13 PM BST
Giants Causeway seem to go very well with Mr P mares and his granddaughters why not look at that avenue ie Shamardal or Footstepsinthesand.
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 7:20 PM BST
If you use Footstepsinthesand by the time you come to sell he will be dead in the water doubt his yearlings will sell that well this term,imo Korea beckons!
Report potentialmillionaire September 13, 2010 8:14 PM BST
I've never seen Footstepsinthesand and when I did Coolmore in the spring I made no effort to remedy that. Nuff said!

So Shamardal and Medicean are current fodder. Thanks for your input guys, you seem to have grasped my convoluted logic.

Mind you Prima, you've thrown a spanner in with Beat Hollow. I darersay I'll have to take a couple of Dansilis and an Oasis Dream in order to secure one of those. I've got you on speed dial to take those dregs off my hands Laugh
Report imagele September 13, 2010 8:40 PM BST
Have you thought about Exceed and Excel - he may be risky in the next few years but a lot of trainers like his stock and he only needs to get one or two exceptional horses in the intervening years for your investment to double potentially.  The risk is that if he continues in the same vein as now he will be a good but not hugely commercial option. But I think at the moment he is holding his ground and his fee is recoupable at sale because he gets good types. You said a cheaper version of DD was what you may be looking for? A riskier DD son is Jeremy - not as good a racehorse but a stallion producing female line.

I have used Invincible Spirit to inject speed and he has seriously upgraded my smaller mare.  Not sure whether he is an option?  I love his stock - the ones I have been involved with are very game and genuine - although Fleeting Spirit can be a little quirky. 

Two other very speculative ones are Amadeus Wolf - I think Mozart would have been a good sire - AW's first stock are nice but his female line is a little weak.

The other one is Baltic King - I really liked Danetime and think he may be the better option than My Boy Charlie or Bushranger if you wanted to try out a son of Danetime. He was a nice sound horse and has furnished into a lovely looking stallion. Danetime was building up a good following with middle level trainers when he died and I think they will give his stallion sons a try.

The other one I would consider - but again you are taking a chance is Champs Elysees. But like many younger brothers may end up a poor man's Dansili.
Report Prima Donna September 13, 2010 8:45 PM BST
Pot M,Have you thought about Intense Focus?by Giants Causeway out of a Danehill mare the 2nd dam is by Kahyasi a good cross a nice looking sire who should add some preciosity to your mare,only 6.5k euros what do you think?not sure how many he has had this year,shall I assume your not so keen on Beat Hollow!Grin
Report DMCK September 13, 2010 8:55 PM BST
my bad, forgot i read that he wasnt been shuttled to ireland this season,
maybe verglas might suit
Report potentialmillionaire September 13, 2010 9:19 PM BST
Blimey, you're all having a good go at this and I'm very grateful. The mare is stakes placed so I'll be as bold as I can afford. Invincible Spirit is perfect but out of reach I fear.

I won't risk 3rd or 4th season, and I'd rather not go 2nd season if atall possible.

I think E & E is consistent but perhaps a bit too speedy, purely sprint, which she never will be.
Can he just keep plugging away at the same level and keep everyone happy? I don't know.

Champs Elysees and this mare could result in an out and out stayer methinks. I think Champs Elysees needs a bit of speed from his mates to stay on the safe side.

Ofcourse there is going to be plenty of 1st seasoners to consider this time aswell. . .
Report imagele September 13, 2010 10:25 PM BST
PM - In terms of more established UK stallions have you thought of Kyllachy?  He is not my favourite horse - I find his stock a little pedestrian but I am always surprised when Sageform prints the results per month and keep seeing how consistently well he seems to do. But maybe he is too much a sprinter...

Agree re: CE - if your mare is stoutly bred he may not be the one - Kahyasi has a strong impact I guess.

Also - I would keep an ear out for any Australian sprinters they may shuttle over here - the Australian sprinting bloodlines are the best in the world in my opinion and stallions like Bletchingly (from the Hyperion/Star Kingdom line) couldn't get past 6 furlongs but bred horses who stayed and injected class into his mares. Instead of injecting pure speed he seemed to inject a turn of foot into the distance the mare travelled. A little like Oasis Dream is doing now.

Fastnet Rock is one to note. The key downside would be the possible lack of interest by buyers here because the bloodlines aren't as well known here.
Report neill d September 14, 2010 9:52 AM BST
Not an expert, and it's been said but Iffraaj, speedy but got seven, having a great year. If Wooten Bassett and that Jarvis horse do anything in Group races towards the backend (Horris Hill maybe) so much the better
Report The Gotchee September 14, 2010 10:32 AM BST
Dubawi and Iffraj should inject the speed you require. Both are good value. Dubawi may have lost  some of his initial appeal but I think he will establish himself as a solid, consistent stakes producer. I expect Iffraj's stock to improve with age after a very satisifactory first season.
Report Prima Donna September 14, 2010 10:35 AM BST
Dubawi will almost certainly go up next year out of Pot M's price range of up to 20k,Ifraaj on the other hand does look like he's going to right way!
Report yer ma September 14, 2010 1:48 PM BST
Acclamation is the most obv answer imo.  Ifraaj might pay off but more of a gamble in 18mths time. Reckon the sharmadal boat has sailed. GL
Report Prima Donna September 14, 2010 2:40 PM BST
yer ma,Do you think Shamardal is all but finished in terms of remaining commercial?
Report yer ma September 14, 2010 2:56 PM BST
No but as I think GG used to say - money is to be made being ahead of the tide not in the wash.  Or something like that.  I kicked myself for not buying a couple of foals two Novembers ago.  Last year the foals were overpriced and to some extent (Lope de Vega aside) he is yesterdays news compared to Dubawi. Very arab dominated buying as well...but we're all hoping that continues.
Report Prima Donna September 14, 2010 3:27 PM BST
That's true I suppose,and yes he is very much Arab dominated in the sales ring,we have done well with him so far but as we have a mare in-foal this year perhaps she is not looking so good,I wonder how breeders who used him in the hope Darley will help them this year feel right now!It's a pity GG is no longer posting he was always good to hear from someone with a very commercial hat on,but knowing him doubt he will ever return as GG,tucked away in a quite eastern part of the UK[;)]
Report neill d September 14, 2010 4:45 PM BST
Shamardal no longer fashionable, when did that happen?
Report potentialmillionaire September 14, 2010 7:47 PM BST
Well. I think starting this thread may be my achievement of the year - given how it's taken off!
Thanks all.

Imagele, summed up Kyllachy a treat. However, they don't sell as well as the stud fee says they should, infact I think he's been one of the worst offenders on that front for the last couple of years. A good shot at getting you a winner though for sure.

It's a shame Ifraaj is in Ireland and he is a bit bigger than I'd like. I imagine the queue is building pretty quickly!

Dubawi is perfect but price is not going to be on my side I fear. The Gotchee, I'm fascinated to know why he has lost some of his appeal though. I think perhaps only to you perhaps?  Grin

I think that a lot of us posters are perhaps being a little bit tough on Shamardal. However I am not sure we are definitely wrong. Good'ol inconsistent daddy springs to mind. . .
Report Prima Donna September 14, 2010 8:24 PM BST
Pot M,if you think Dubawi would be right for her,then why don't you send her to Makfi?Even if he is as much as 25k maybe stretch yourself I'm sure it would be worth it why you sell.
My father always said when using stallions "it doesn't matter how much you spend or how far you travel you will forget all that when you have a great foal to sell "sound advice I always think of him saying that when we use very expensive stallions or send them overseas for covering.
Report Prima Donna September 14, 2010 8:24 PM BST
**when you sell**
Report imagele September 14, 2010 8:50 PM BST
I struggle with Makfi at 25k for what he has done so far - what about Mastercraftsman at 20k euros?  Neat horse, not overly big, better racehorse than his sire and matched it with Sea the Stars for a few strides?  Good turn of foot - GR 1 2yo and then top miler.  10f probably stretched him but like RVW he could get it when STS wasn't in the race. Miswaki on the female side is a plus.
Report potentialmillionaire September 14, 2010 10:19 PM BST
Prima, Makfi is definitely on the list but money is an issue. It worries me slightly that the mare would be one of his weaker mates. Do you subscribe to the view that says you want your mare to be in the top 1/3 of a stallions book quality as it is only the top 1/3 of his foals/yearlings that will be profitable?

I think undoubtedly that you do want to be in the top 1/3 of the sales stock, but the individual's confirmation may well get you there regardless of pedigree.

I inspected M/C for this mares 1st cover this year. I didn't go for him atall. Too much leg, too little movement and in this case plenty big enough.

I think £25 for Makfi is steep but if he goes on to B.C. glory then perhaps not.
But whatever, right now he has the two best bits of mile form in the book, and by a length or two.
Report The Gotchee September 14, 2010 10:25 PM BST
pot, just to clarify, I said Dubawi lost some of his initial appeal on the basis that his stud fee went from 40k euros in 2008  to 15k euros in 2009. Furthermore his foal average in 2007 was £66k compared to £20k in 2008.Cool

If you have 20k to spend on a stallion you wont go too far wrong with Dubawi.
Report Prima Donna September 15, 2010 6:42 AM BST
Pot M,Yeah sure we would always like to be in the top half of the stallions book but saying that as you point out that can depend on your mare ie if she does get fantastic looking stock,then I would take the chance as you know some dreg with a great page will 99% of the time get a low price then your good looking one with a weak page will outsell the better page.
I remember a few years ago we had yearlings at a sale one of them was out of a GR1 producer the other was a superb looking colt with no page at all half bro' to 3 very minor winners his sire stood for 2k the better bred on was by a 35k sire,needless to say the expensive one made 12k the cheap colt made over 40k,that's how it goes sometimes some breeders seem to have a fear of cheap sires some of them are worth a gamble.

I agree with your view about Mastercraftsman,we had him down as one to use as he was so good and as you know by the best sire line out of a Miswaki mare............that is until we looked at him you could drive a bus under him and personally I hate greys,on form yeah a 20k horse but looks wise I'd say 12/15k he got none of ours.
Pot M is your mare a BLK type herself or half sis to anything?
Report potentialmillionaire September 15, 2010 4:09 PM BST
And ofcourse another thing Prima, and I'm glad we agree on the horse, he really was the only 1st season horse of his type last year wasn't he. If you were at that price level too, I couldn't see much else anyway. I think therefore that for all of those who used up shoe leather on that leafy driveway, there will be plenty who didn't bother and will have piled in anyway. An exclusive product come sale time? I think not.

The mare in question has a UK L 2nd is half sister to a Stakes winner who is dam of a stakes horse too. Solid not spectacular page, but it's done me plenty of favours over the years so I am always trying to get it to the next level. (Crazy I know given my size and funding!)
Report imagele September 15, 2010 4:22 PM BST
Interesting observations on Mastercraftsman - I haven't seen him since his racing days - it sounds like he hasn't let down much and is still leggy.  I need to go and have a look at him....
Report Prima Donna September 15, 2010 4:33 PM BST
Go and look at him imagele............I bet you come away after with the same view as others that is "thanks but no thanks"Grin

Pot M I would be thinking of Makfi or Medicean,Makfi a safer bet though more money but reckon it will be worth it,if he is just over your budget perhaps if she is your best mare could you economize with your others?still overall working on you total spending capacity,just a thought.
Report potentialmillionaire September 15, 2010 7:49 PM BST
And ofcourse, is she my best mare? Maybe but I need to see her 1st foal in Jan to help answer that one. And by then the Makfi's of this world will have flown!

Another conundrum Confused
Report Prima Donna September 15, 2010 8:05 PM BST
Well Pot M what a dilemma perhaps if you have had her family for a few years you must have an idea what sort of stock they get,I'm sure Makfi will be red hot maybe take the chance if she does foal a rat she is still young enough to sell her BEFORE you sell the foal,a mare with a solid page like you say she is and still young in-foal to Makfi should sell well that's what I'd do then you can sell the '11 foal as a yearling,telling punters at the sale her foal is so nice you are keeping it to sell as a yearling you know the score [;)] we all do it from time to time.
Report potentialmillionaire September 15, 2010 8:32 PM BST
I like your tips Prima!

She is from a traditionally 'salesy' family and has nothing that would mark her down really and is quite exciting right now. It's just a case of bringing  a slightly sharper look to her progeny hence me starting this thread - which has been a lot of fun!

Incidentally I found a portrait photo of Multiplex on the Mickley website (another thread, perhaps) Interesting. I think they need a little help with matters of Image Grin
Report Prima Donna September 15, 2010 9:00 PM BST
potentialmillionaire     15 Sep 10 20:32 
It's just a case of bringing  a slightly sharper look to her progeny
Pot M would you consider sending her to France next year?The reason I ask is Naaqoos stands for 6k euros,a very fast early GR1 winning son of Oasis Dream out of a mare by Machiavellian a nice looking sire with a terrible lot of quality at that price he might be attractive to you. 

Incidentally I found a portrait photo of Multiplex on the Mickley website (another thread, perhaps) Interesting. I think they need a little help with matters of Image

Your danm right they doShockedWe sent one to Captain Gerrard this year but did not board the mare with them,need I say many horses not enough competent staff,mind you the Aus guy showing the stallions was fine also the blonde head groom was a good girl to talk to.
Report Posh Paddy September 15, 2010 10:44 PM BST
2 more names to through into the hat:

Captain Rio, only E5K and gets plenty of winners and out of a Miswaki mare, soft ground form may not be to PD's liking though.

Equiano retired today so may be interesting, fast, out of an Ela Mana Mou mare so stamina in there, 1st season so could be commercial?  Fee TBA.
Report potentialmillionaire September 16, 2010 10:22 PM BST
I think that I will probably be a bit grander with this mare. I like to show confidence in a mare if I can as buyers tend to value a mare by the quality of the covering. Unless a mare is a real star and can take any sire regardless, staying modest with a mating can bring a mare down a level perhaps.

Having said that, a great foal is a great foal, and it will always be profitable however modest it's daddy.
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