Makfi holds plenty of appeal but........

Would there be a bit of a stigma with him that he is a cast off? Is he a good looking horse?

neill d,Yes I understand he is a good looking colt my wife was at HQ when he won the GNS,she liked him,I doubt he will suffer from the fact he was a 'cast off'more like his former trainer will look like a twerp for letting such a good sort like he has proved go.

Thats good then, hoped it wouldn't be an issue, what a crop of milers there are around this year (classic generation and older)whatever turns out to be the best of these come years end should have every chance to have a good career.

Surely will be bought up by Darley. First Son of Dubawi and a top class Miler. Forget buying 2yr olds in the winter just by this classic winner

Alkaased is an example of them re-purchasing their cast offs, so it is possible that he will be reacquired.

He comes froma nice family he could well get two year olds but he's won his one group 1's on heavy ground so that might go against him, he could go on for further success this year though. He's one that i'd keep an eye on but finding the right mare for him could be hard.

What did you think of Rip Van Winkle at York PD i was delighted with it a little shocked at the end to cause i thought he was beaten but the lads said that they were very confident before the race so i didn't argue with them. I stayed over for the rest of the week just watching we had no connections to any other horses but i got to see some nice stock over there. I was impressed by Joshua Trees run

Rip Van he won his 2000 on firm,if his only wins were on heavy I'd not be so keen but he has shown us he handles both which is a good sign of class.
I thought as I have before Rip Van Winkle is a smashing looking colt his win last week for me anyway was a bit workmanlike I for a time did not think he would make it,we are very interested in using him next year,as you agree he will be red hot,long term I'm not so sure he will be any good I think off the top of my head he comes from the same family as Alderbrook,I always take what the lads say with a pinch of salt you know why I'm sure,but we had a great week I always like that meeting,yes we both also thought J'Tree ran real well,we had a nice 2 y'old running it has won already and it had a very good run we were not too disappointed as it didn't win but it does look a class prospect for later on,what did you think of Approve?he could be a bit of a monkey but he has plenty of speed and class I like him.

I was on about his win France on heavy sorry PD that race just doesn't seem as good as it looked.

I thought Approve was very good as he was given weight which is hard for a two year old whether he is group 1 class is for another day but he showed that he is tough. A two year old that i liked was Pabusar he could improve a bit. I also was impressed by Rimth who looks like she could be a top filly

Did you like any other horses

Rip Van,I agree that both of those two do like capable of going on of the two Pabusar would be my choice Rimth  from what I could see needs to improve more but saying that she did meet 2 good sorts,one I did like the look of was Brian Meehan's colt Waiter's Dream now his horses are running better he looks a nice prospect.I sort of like Sir Reginald  he again looks sure to improve,but to what level god knows doubt he is GR1 class more like listed or GR3 but still a nice prospect

i was thinking today perhaps Darley might buy Makfi,if they up Dubawi next year I could see them standing Him at Kildangan and Makfi at Dalham Hall,maybe in the 15/20k region as it stands if he wins more then poss'20/25k,he is a real poss' for next year,does he interest you Rip Van?
BTW Doncaster trade looks okay to me,lets hope it goes on I guess Pot M is there at the moment,hope he comes out on top.

** do look**

Makfi would be interesting but he needs to win another Group 1 i'm actually struggling to think of any mare of ours that he would actually suit so that might hinder my interest in him. He comes from a great family but Dubawi is not my favourite horse and i never thought that Dubai Millenium was as good as they said he was. He won his maiden over 7 on very soft at two but if he was with a very top trainer at 2 in England or Ireland i'd say he could have won earlier i dont rate Tregoning. If darley do but him they will stand the pair at different studs but were do you stand either of them its hard to say.

You have Rip Van very similar views to me about both Marcus Tregoning he to me would be more at home sipping Pims at the Henley Regatta than playing at being a trainer,I also think Dubai Millenium was very much overrated his owner has a special pair of rose tinted shades he always puts on when asked about him,when you think of his mares he got DM has really been a flop,but Dubawi has done well and will be commercial,for that reason Makfi first time around would be of interest.
I think like you he wants another GR1 but unlike you I do have a mare he would go well with,we shall have to see how he does if he does turn up at Ascot I reckon Canford Cliffs may beat him.

I'd think Canford would take him aswell, so Makfi at 20 to 25k would be the one over Canford at 10 to 15k due to whats behind them, On the topic of Tregonning, he never really went on from that Derby win, His top horses seem very inconsistent aswell, Finjaan and that good mile and a quarter horse of his, Anyway who allows well bred, good looking, unraced horses leave their yard without testing the water. They put a spin on Makfi's departure but I don't think anyone bought it, seems a nice guy all the same though.

Could anyone else see Makfi standing next year at Cheveley Park in NMKT?They I understand are looking for a new horse,its feasible to me just wondering,does it make sense?

It wouldn't surprise me but he doesn't seem like there type of horse they usually want a ball of speed. Dubawi is on fire now i've been watching alot of racing the past week because i got a kick in the hand from a foal and he actually broke one of my fingers and cant do anything else really.

announcement in next few days prima....won't be Ireland or Newmarket.

notenough,is he standing in England? I know you can't say where he is going but do you have an idea which country?Hope not Japan!

Chris t not tweenhills.  I like him but not that much. ;)

Wonder if John Warren is getting him to stand with Paco Boy,I do hope David Redvers does not get him.

Just snatched a few days away before getting Tatts 2 & 3 yearlings in!

Krikey Pot M you leave it late enough,anyway hope you now feel ready for the onslaught,our yearlings for Tatts have been in for 4 weeks,they all get plenty of time in the field each day they seem always relaxed it also helps their guts as we shovel food down then like its going out of fashion.

Couldn't say prima.

yer ma...You were absolutely right about the RP yearling bonus scheme...it has been a monumental disaster for everyone,just as you predicted.

notenough,I understand I shall keep my eyes peeled thinking about it David Redvers does have plenty of the green and crispy's at the moment.

Old ground Notenough, I cant prove the buyers couldnt give a toss about it and prices havent been helped by it.  You cant prove the contrary so why bother arguing.  I have a small anecdote though.  At recent breeders lunch someone told mrs Yer ma they'd been given the thumbscrews by our friend DR for not putting Book 1 horses in scheme.  Then had a name at Tatts asking where he intended entering his stock next year.  Cretins.

yer ma..Only old ground if you've been proven wrong.I think you ought to do some market research among trainers and purchasers.
DBS held up well ,didnt it?

Yes it's tight Prima but it's possible providing nothing goes wrong. As they are mine and I'm wrinkled enough to know when to fight and when to walk away I figure that they should, by and large, get a clear run!

It's very late potential do you think you'll actually have them ready? When do you wean your foals for the sales

Oh No, I'm worrying you guys!!
I work on 6 weeks and it's quite intensive but it works for me though it probably goes to the wire. I'm more foals perhaps than yearlings these days but I've had a lot of compliments from buyers and auctioneers over the years for my yearlings so I think i'm getting it right. Again because it's just me I can monitor very closely and I would be conscious of their condition in the field in the run up to preparation.
Rip Van, I wean at the classic 5 months - never earlier but sometimes up to 6 or even 7 if I've got practical problems (companions, field etc.)
I wean in the field and sneak the mothers out singly at feed time when the foals are a bit lower than the gate behind a dip. It's one of my challenges of the year and it's totally stress free as the foals have no idea their mother has gone really.
I think the foals need to have a very smooth upbringing to cope with a foal sale and wouldn't be very happy to take a foal that has had some sort of conflict.
They should have at least 2 months weaned then before the sales therefore and my foal prep is very relaxed.
You'll always find a bit of mud on one of my foals, but they are well fed and super healthy.
When i first started out I pinhooked like so many, and some of those pitiful Goffs and Fairyhouse foals were a sight back then. Did they take them from the mare to the Sales ring?

Pot M,I think you know David Redvers don't you? has he shown any encouraging signs at the prospect of standing Makfi is he still after Main Aim?Just wondering.

We always walk the mares into a shed and walk straight out leaving the foal in the shed they stay in for about a week til they quiten and then are in and out for about a month before the sales work starts

I know him yes. But we don't speak out of the sales or stud season much really.
I would be surprised if the Ishiguru insurance money pushes them into Mafki league though!
You don't seem to be a fan (I find him okay but wouldn't join a fanclub) is he just irritating to you or has he done you wrong?
I think he needs forgiving a fair ammount for at least trying to set up an indepenent operation against the odds.

Here we just pull a mare or two out of the field at feed time like Pot M,half the time the foals don't seem to notice,when we have a group of weaned foals one of my wife's old retired hunters acts as a nanny,you can always get them into the barns with him we have never had a problem with it,saying that mind we had a Danehill colt foal who we had just weaned a few days before,it tried to suck one of the other mares who then kicked it on the shoulder,after a massive vet bill we had to put it down,but hopefully that was a one off!

Jeepers Prima, unlucky that. But the field method is brilliantly best Rip Van, by a long chalk.

No I must say D Redvers has and is always fine to deal with he can be a touch arrogant,he very much offended a great friend of mine some years ago,but he always seems to be on his best behaviour when he speaks to us which is not often he like a lot of others always look terrified to approach us ,trouble with Tweenhills it has become synonymous with cheap stallions who go nowhere.

Sleeping Indian seems like their best chance for a while.

I think Tweenhills has time to improve. They haven't stood too many horses really when you tot it up and plenty of good people got involved with Sleeping Indian so there has been some goodwill. It's mighty tough though. Perhaps with the tax inequality sorted an independent over here may be able to be a bit more competitive with you guys over there for a better prospect.

If you hear anything Pot M let me know I would use Makfi even if David Redvers has him,yes lots used Sleeping Indian can never really understand why though.

Looks like Makfi is going to stand in the UK when he retires.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/top-miler-makfi-set-to-stand-at-br...

Can u see the Maktoums giving his stock the time of day? That and the objectionable 'owner', I'm out.

What is happening at Darley....

The chequebook is closed by the looks of it

Saw the piece in the Post this morning,it does look like he may go to Tweenhills,personally I couldn't care less about the prospect of Darley not buying anything or Shadwell for that matter plenty of other buyers out there who will want stock of his.With the financial mess in Dubai its no surprise that lot are not buying anything,you can hardly been seen to spend maga bucks when all around you its going down the pan,if David Redvers has managed to pull off the deal to get Makfi then well done to him,I will make a point of speaking to him when I see him next.

Who is the 'objectional owner' to whom you refer yer ma?
He will amost certainly be syndicated on some level.
The Maktoums wouldn't avoid the horse at the sales at all. They bought Charnwood Forests and Baratheas and Darley/Godolphin would have been pretty much unconnected with Mafki at all times so they lost no face.
I suspect Shadwell being a sporting crowd would go out of their way to buy one or two as they cultivate a good image as buyers and, in this case, sellers!
Maybe you were referring to the fact that perhaps they will never be buyers of anything ever again.?
Come back Dubai, all is forgiven

Redvers and I disagree re. Maktoums. Dont see the similarity with the two stallions you mention.  Time will tell but with tightened budgets I cant see why you would support an inferior version of a stallion you own.  I'd like to be in on the conversation where Gold suggests to his boss to buy yearlings by a horse he sold without racing.  Just a personal view - plenty of stallions for us all to choose and attempt to make money with.

Well they sold both of them (largely) to Rathbarry and plenty of similar situations - Godolphin bred and sold Verglas for instance - and they come back.
Given their numbers and Hamdam's success I don't know how upset he would really be. He is famously loyal to his staff and I am not sure that this blip will stop him from pursuing a nice horse.
They were a long time shafted by a certain group before they finally started to boycott that product!

David Redvers it is then!If notenough you are David Redvers then I shall look forward to seeing you very soon!I have a nice mare that will be just the sort for Makfi.Well done for getting him too!

I'm not him prima d.But I knew what was going on...You can tell him yourself when you see him.Some touch for him isn't it?

The maktoums look like they're done don't they?....Canford Cliffs to Coolmore as well.
All those who sent mares this year to Darley because of what happened at Tatts last Oct...Be very afraid.

It sure is notenough it sure is,imo one of the best prospects for a while I too reckon that lot are done for now anyway,and my sentiments exactly for all those who used expensive Darley sires,I bet they all feel very uncomfortable facing the sales this term.

Well. I shall stick my neck out here and say that The Maktoums will be at Tatts and Goffs at a significant level, September too.
I think a cut back would automatically encompass Donny and Deauville because the former has survived without them for many years and the latter because they are no where near as significant in France anyway.
They'll support their stallions pretty significantly I bet.
(And ofcourse I'm never wrong)

Am I the only one that batted an eye when Tipperary swooped for Canford Cliffs? They didn't get much attention when we were discussing likely venues. I'm not saying they are wrong but I'm also certain that Darley were not necessarily wrong in not wanting him either. Unless ofcourse that you are right and they've nothing squirelled away for their hobbies.

Heard today that Dubawi already has 200 applications for 2010. Are you amongst them Prima?

I say well done to Redvers too. I have a mare that would probably suit - She'd be my best whereas I'm sure you'll be sending your worst Prima Do we think he's a big horse? That would scare me a bit coupled with a lack of proper 2yo form.

Well they the Maktoums may well be out and buying at the sales but if they do doubt it will be with the same force as they normally do,I just wonder if Darley are sitting back looking on with no loot to spend they have missed 3 new sires up to now,Coolmore must of been very aware how easily Canford Cliffs bear Rip at Goodwood they also know he will offer a nice early out cross for all the Sadlers Wells/Danehill mres they have (along with the rest of us)perhaps Darley didn't want him as they have plenty enough out cross sires the 'in cross' ones they have you don't want.

Heard today that Dubawi already has 200 applications for 2010. Are you amongst them Prima?
No Pot M we have not used this horse this year,but if you mean NEXT year 2011 we will have a look at him,even though you can tell I'm not their biggest fan,being commercial breeders I am aware a couple of their new stallions have done well a few more should also go the right way,so we all have to use stallions that are hot and a ready market for the stock.Makfi fits the criteria as he is by an emerging sire who has done very well,a very classy runner from a decent 2 y'old family,he did win at 2 but late on but I'm thinking with him had he been with a good trainer he probably would of won before I reckon that's what the industry will think anyway,I don't have him down as over big just a nice sort,and no Pot M he won't get our worst (my mare wears that crown)he will get a nice young winning mare from a top class family with plenty of early speed.

I think you need a big mare with a big body for him he seems a liitle small but i also got that impression of dubawi aswell

That's a good point Rip Van but most of the Dubawi stock I've seen do look neat and very racey,they by and large are strong sorts too,I'd say Makfi is typical of his sire,the mare I'd send is very strong with a enormous backside and has a lot of quality and the good thing is she is Danehill/Sadlers Wells free.

You need to be right on this one Prima, if my mare is to suit.
If you were to get a nice filly from your proposed  mating she could perhaps be a keeper as you are getting further away from much of what is ubiquitous at the moment?

Anyway, I am sure it is all hypothetical what with Wonderwillies recommendation in today's racing post I'm sure he'll be full by now. Being a relative pauper though, I do find it a pain having to guess what his fee may be until the Breeders cup is done and dusted. I don't have the clout to get into a 'full' stallion that late when I find that Makfi has won by 3l and I cannot play!

"2011" as you sorted!!!

Pot M,If I indeed got a filly I would more than likely put it through the ring I could be tempted to do so as a foal,she (the mare) has a lot of appeal,but I would only let her go providing she was a good sort for the right money,as yes she would be very easy to mate later on.
I think we could all call ourselves 'paupers' we all need the money BUT if you have the right mare NO stallion is ever full,me I hope he does win the BC mile,he is one nice prospect,I still think its incredible David Redvers has got him.

What does the mare have this year PD. I'd like to cover a mare with dubawi i'm not to gone on Makfi. I thought a big bodied Danehill Dancer mare would be the right cross for him

Rip Van,she does not have a foal at foot because we had her back from in-training last Autumn,she is now in-foal to a champion 2 y'old from the Danehill line.Yes your DD mare should be a good sort for him I agree,it would be great if she won a race at 2 or is from a early BT family,is she?

Sorry to butt in, but I have really enjoyed following your thread and thinking. It's good to learn about the game from a different angle and find out about the breeders and their concerns. Thanks, it's refreshing to find healthy discussion on here

Prima, not wishing to contradict you, but I shall! I suspect that the quality of your mares counts for a lot but I think your status (if my assumption of your status is correct) probably helps you more than you think?

Coolmore obviously rarely puts the full sign up and I would get in there, but sometimes I will definitely be passed over by a 'name' with a similar or even inferior mare. (No rose tinted specs. honest!)

By the way, my 'Makfi' potential mare is also out of training, infoal early to a champion 2yo, Danehill sireline. You haven't nicked her have you

By the way, my 'Makfi' potential mare is also out of training, infoal early to a champion 2yo, Danehill sireline. You haven't nicked her have you

Pot'M, is she bay? You'd better go and do a head-count! (That was me that passed you driving the horsebox yesterday )

Being passed over by a 'name' is fair point and what other mares you are sending to connected stallions can also have a bearing on how acceptable you are. This could happen to me as I am only a breeder of moderate handicappers. But I doubt my wife would be passed over, so I can hang on her coat tails to a certain extent!!

Redal2,Feel free to 'butt in'! We do try and keep it civil here and attempt intelligent discussions, but certainly I'm no innocent when it comes to losing my temper and being rude to people through the keyboard! However the breeding angle is sometimes hard for the 'betting people' to get their heads around,so it is refreshing to see you enjoying this board.

She was a winner at 2 and comes from a good family which cant be said about many of DD's til recently. She has done really well for us but i dont think Makfi is for me i'm thinking more of using a son of Galileo for her next year

Rip Van,are you thinking of your namesake?He will be very popular not too sure about him long term but he will be getting a few from here that's for sure!Is your DD mare from one of his later crops?its amazing when you look at the trash he got early on and his results from mares,people are too quick to say he is a poor sire of sires what they fail to see is how the hell can he turn some dreg family into a 'producing one'just by covering the mare?I do like him and his stock we have a very nice colt that will go into training  later this year it has a stallions pedigree all we need is some good wins

Well it will probably be Rip Van Winkle or New Approach she has produced some very good two year olds so far so i think if a top sire is used on her it could sell very well. the price will have to be right with Rip though although i'm sure there will be some breaks for him. The problem with her though is i dont want her progeny to be to tall its surprising shes a big tall mare being by DD. She isn't from the very early crops but she has produced a few foals. I was thinking about Ravens Pass but it could be hard to get into his book next year , Cape Cross is one that i'm also very interested in. She is the most commercial mare we have and is going to need a top stallion next year but they can be hard to find.

Rip Van,If she is on the big side and gets big sorts then maybe I'd skip New Approach as we were saying the other day he is a touch on the backward side,if you can afford it of those two I'd go for Rip Van Winkle as by the time you sell NA maybe dead in the water we shall see,Ravens Pass is a nice prospect you should get in all-right,but we have one of his here its not massive but not small either the mare is only 15.3hh,Cape Cross is one who does get them by and large on the smallish side he could be the type for her,he's one that I'm not that mad about he gets lots of winners but his class animals are really few and far between but he does sell well atm,Rip Van Winkle I think if he wins today and say wins the BC classic then he will be expensive,have you thought about Excellent Art?being by Pivotal he will have appeal they have sold well enough and are nice sorts but he is a gamble I know,still he looks a more racy type than New Approach,did she go on the soft being a DD as imo Pivotal's need cut its something to think about.
Are you going to Leopardstown today?I shall be there and I'm going to see Famous Name he does have a chance it looks a great prospect.

Rip Van,  I think you are far more experienced than me, but I'm gobby so I'll spout anyway, just to say that if your mare is perhaps your best, then think how you will feel if you use a stallion in the 'wrong' year, it goes t*ts up for him and you find you have 'wasted' a year with your star producer? I would be 1st season or proven in your shoes.

Now I love Cape Cross, but there are always plenty on the market and while many sell well, Prima's 'ATM' is perhaps very pertinent as I'm not sure he can keep everyone happy for ever (justifiably or not).

Expand on your Ravens Pass foal Prima if you have time. As I've said elsewhere, I thought he was a bit of a blocky US type, with pretty grim offset knees. Am I talking cr*p yet again? Are you pleased with him/her?

Well i'm home from Leopardstown now didn't wiat for the last race at all and was disappointed by Rip today maybe he didnt have long enough between the races but Cape Blanco was very good today. He could turn out to be a nice prospect as theres speed on the dams side. I was impressed by Beethoven today and if he wins a few more races he could well turn into a nice prospect.

The mare in question has had a filly foal by Excellent Art which was a very nice foal. Yes NA prob would be to big for her. I think Rip could suit cause shes a fairly scopey mare and i think Rip is a small bit narrow. I'm not Cape Cross's biggest fan but he looks like a nice cross for her.

potential i'm still learning at the game my father is the one with the knowledge you seem to be a very interesting charachter as is PD the two of ye have in depth knowledge of breeding

I heard a few quotes about Cape Blanco before the Dante when we were all wondering what AOB was sending to the Derby, can't remember them exactly but the gist of them were that he was a fairly ordinary looking colt and that he couldn't be AOB's Derby horse. What did you think of him on that score Rip?

sorry after the Dante

I see you too Rip Van thought Excellent Art would be the type for her,the ones I've seen all have a 'terrible lot of quality'will you sell it as a foal this year or keep until next as a 1YR?Looking at Rip Van Winkle yesterday he must of had a hard race at York he looked lighter to me it must of taken it out of him,still I'm not so sure he really is a great horse he's good but I had in my mind on the way to the races he will get done today.........but not by the one I fancied (Famous Name)who was out classed so he's off the list I also think perhaps it wasn't the hottest Champion.
I reckon Cape Blanco will be a nice sort for next year,he is a strong sort with as you point out a fast page if a bit light but being a son of Galileo with his form I think he now comes in on the list for next year lets just hope we don't get a CH filly with lots of white ,how much do you think they will stand him for?

The Ravens Pass foals we have are nice sorts the colt I was talking about is what people would say is a  A N foal nice  nothing dramatic to fault but a touch on the plain side he won't be tiny so he may get booted out yet,we have another colt who we like very much he is miles better a very racy quality sort who is a great walker who does 'stamp them in 'when he goes.I would say Pot M yes Ravens is not small and is a bit plain but he's a good deep sire with bone he may not have the best of knees but I don't have him down as the worst I've ever seen either,but no two ways he was one tough runner by Elusive Quality so if you can accept faults which they all have if you scrutinize them enough I think he will be very commercial mind you looking at colt No1 he does look expensive.

Rip Van,Beethoven does look a nice sort but as like you he would need to improve a hell of a lot to use him,Oratorio has done okay but not really gone on from last year,overall he has imo been disappointing we have a few by him and you can't help think why did we do that, but then we all get it wrong from time to time,but he does come from a good family though far enough back,I doubt son's of Oratorio will be that well accepted ATM Beethoven is one I'd have down for them to sell,if he does go to stud he needs to be cheap,the Dewhurst he won (in a blanket finish) looked at the time pretty poor I still hold that view,saying that D I C K Turpin is the only good one to take from the race,he was about 5th or 6th in it I seem to remember.

I had a Excellent Art filly this year and last year so you wont be guaranteed to find out who i am. I'm nearly sure i told you before i had an Excellent Art that i was very happy with, have you ever used him PD. We actually used him again this year even though we had planned to use Aussie Rules on the mare, i do like AR pedigree is it a stallions pedigree only time will tell.

I was very disappointed in the Champion Stakes yesterday Cape Blanco was good but the other horses looked tired and with some (Famous Name) not up to the class.
We used Oratorio again this year and i'm not to worried about him yet i'm sure thers still a few more good ones to come. Beethoven i think will get a place at stud but not at Coolmore should have said that in my last post but all he needs to do is win a couple more group races over a mile and he will get an alright chance at stud

Rip Van,No we have not used Excellent Art.........perhaps we should of done so looking at his stock they are nice sorts but my view with Pivotal is he not a great sire of sires but his daughters will make good broodmares especially his later crops,he is a bit like Danehill Dancer but imo the difference is DD gets a lot of class 2 y'olds Pivotal doesn't.
You have a point about Beethoven I doubt they would stand him either that is only going to change if he turns it in and wins some real good races looking at him though I can't see it happening.As for finding out who you or anyone else is for that matter you have no worries there as what I like about this forum is that we can all talk on the same level something that in the real world may not be the case,you know how it is I'm sure,but saying that I have often thought it would be great to meet you and Pot M over a drink at the sales which of course they would be on me!!!

Rip, I'm very flattered you find some of what I post interesting. But I suspect that you've been deceived!
One thing is, if you are learning at this game, it reflects well on you that you are active on here and ploughing your way through the (mostly) bol*ocks in the pursuit of more knowledge .
I am glad you are all pleased with the Excellent Arts you have seen as I got to Coolmore this spring for the 1st time in years and was very impressed with him. Not Cheveley's finest hour selling him as a foal. He made plenty of money so he was obviously nice then even.

Oratorio has posted a few good sales prices already this year hasn't he. He certainly seems a bit rocky to me, but as you say Rip Van who knows. His horses were liked in the trainers yards I believe so that must still be serving him well.

Thanks for your Ravens Pass info Prima. I agree that as a runner he was really admirable. I love versatility and top turf over here followed by B.C. glory is fantastically laudible.

Rip van Winkle is certainly looking like a pitch that should be affordable now doesn't he?

Potential Millionaire, I would tend to agree with you rather than my Husband regarding Ravens Pass. He is bigish and plain and, as you say, rather American looking. However I felt he would be commercial esp as a top class son of Elusive Quality and so took a gamble in his conformational drawbacks. One definite advantage of breeding from a stock of mares that are from families that I have been involved with over a number of years and several generations ( I will not say how many, I am that vain!) is that you can make more of an educated guess as to the type each mare will throw and that makes situation such as this as little easier. As Prima has said, one foal is a little bit average but the other is a nice type. As for his opinion on how RP's conformation has impacted on the foals, I will just say this, the mares are 'my' families and I could tell you in detail about every foal each mare has produced and the faults/traits she carries. My Husband sometimes has to ask me which one is which..............!

Excellent Art has certainly got some good sorts and was a nice looking type himself, however I am just not on the Pivotal bandwagon and view his sons with equal suspicion. I have been known to be wrong though (!) so I wish you the best of luck with yours Rip Van.

Couldn't have Beethoven I'm afraid. Oratorio has been disapointing IMO. I was very impressed with his first foals and he was  my pick for First Season sire last year. He just doesn't seem to have built on his early promise and I will reserve further judgement for now.

Rip Van Winkle (the horse) is another who has been a bit of a let down this season. Last year he had STS as a valid excuse and was expected to carry all before him this term but it just hasn't materialised as far as I can see. Beaten convincingly over a mile, and then won the Juddmonte more because the others didn't then on any real merit and stuffed once more at Leopardstown. He is on a recovery mission now and his fee must be dropping by the day.I would expect to see CC removed from his opposition for the remainder of the season and would imagine that the way CC beat RVW had no small bearing on the purchase.

Cape Blanco holds more appeal to me than RVW, his speedy pedigree with a few classy animals has more hope that RVW's lowly page. Needed that win the other day to come off the NH roster though and has more to do before I start send any numbers, though one mare would suit him at a lowish fee.

Now, Makfi. What a coup for Tweenhills and a boost for independent  stallion studs.As far as I know the purchase prices was in excess of £8m and I would expect him to stand for around 25k. I do like him and I think he will be oversubscribed if they decide to limit his book, but I just cannot get away from his Arabic pedigree. Although he is not standing for Shadwell he is pure Shadwell on the page and how well does this stand up in the sale ring? Time and again we see good racehorses that should do well retire there and come sales just fall short of the mark. So I have niggly reservations about him. But as a Classic winning son of a very promising young sire that is red hot commercially and a good type to boot, then yes, I will most likely use him!

Nice to hear from you Slick, Prima should go away more often!

And no I would never expect a lady to dignify that with a reply!

Blimey, that is a steep sum of money for Makfi, though I suppose we should have guessed as much. Someone asked me to guess a fee for him and I said £17,500 (pre breeders cup)! I do hope they realise that their desire to secure the horse does not necessarily reflect what the market can handle by way of stud fee right now.
I think that you shouldn't worry about the Arab touch as much now. Their efforts with Shamardal/Dubawi/Teofilo/Ifraaj even Nayef are showing a surer commercial touch I feel. You've also got Green Desert close up who is unstoppable and a terrific page with Makfi.

I am much more Pivotal than you guys obviously! I think that super ill bred Kyllachy and Captain Rio bat at a higher level than they have any right to - certainly number of winners anyway  - and I would be confident to have a go in a sprinter/miler son of his. Mind when they start getting 1 1/2 miles I wouldn't be quite so happy.

Thanks for your Ravens Pass info. It's good to get agreement on the odd thing, if only to feel that the dementia is a slow onset job

Looking at the results from Doncaster last week and the prospect of Makfi standing at 25k,does anyone else think that stallion fees need to come down to a realistic value for money level?I just wonder with Tweenhills their client base are they the sort of breeders who are ready to use a 25k horse?Its great for any independent stud to get a good colt to stand but David Redvers may have a stallion who is beyond his clients range,what are they going to do?doubt they will all pile into the great Sleeping Indian.

Nice to hear from you Slick, Prima should go away more often! Don't say that Pot M she might agree with you!

Something's gotta give.

The % of horses by stallions in all price ranges that sell at below the stud fee let alone those that make a simple loss is way to high. When I read the sales figures in 'Nelsons' (clue to my age there) listed by sire - well it's as if I'm the only b*gger to do so.

I really believe that (maybe after a sticky transition) the way ahead would be similar fees but smaller books. The net result for the stallion masters would be the same as if they just dropped the fees - which is the route they'll probably take - and it would mean a wider range of stallions would get a chance at stud. I know we'd struggle a bit when prevented from using exactly what we want every time, but re-thinking outside the box wouldn't kill us and it certainly would help the breed.

Makfi. I think that this horse is going to be so popular - if pitched right - that he will be immune to location issues. I know that the big 2 studs rely on hoovering up a group of mares from any particular breeder so they can convince them that the overall deal is great (when it frequently isn't) but I think the smaller studs that do survive manage to keep breeders like myself happy on an individual basis just because the mating is right. I don't know if a client 'base' is everything perhaps.

potentialmillionaire     10 Sep 10 16:45 
Nice to hear from you Slick, Prima should go away more often!

And no I would never expect a lady to dignify that with a reply!


Thanks Potential. I don't post in here so often now, I am fed up with how much the forum has slowed down and makes my computer run as though it is made of treacle! I do keep in touch with the topics though, and Prima keeps me up to date. The usual run of things is that he reads something, we discuss it and then he posts. Though he certainly spends far more time looking on here than I can spare for it

Your idea of fees remaining static and book sizes being strictly controlled does seem to be the most sensible way forward IMO. Just simply slashing fees would not really address the issue, there will always be breeders that think their mare can make a fortune if their moderate mare just goes to an expensive sire. It would also greatly add to the already large problem of catalogue domination by a handful of sires. One following another through the ring is not conducive for profit I fear!

If we got back to the days before Deep Run when a 'nomination' actually meant something and had some value then surely we would be on the right track?

Perhaps there would be less in the way of failed sires at the higher levels if Stallion Masters were actually that, and had control over the mare quality they accepted. I am not so sure that the gene pool would widen, the same lines will still be fashionable, and there may be an increase in lesser lights gaining a place at stud. But on the whole saturation by one sire would be unlikely and some surprise success stories may result.

In full agreement Slick! I do mention it whenever I am talking to anyone of influence and am feeling brave! I suspect that your clout would be more useful to our cause though.

Another advantage to us all would prevent so many slow offspring of any one sire floating around from an early stage in his career. Trainers/agents would not get so fed up with these horses half so quickly.

Although I agree with you that the popular sirelines would still be sought after, we would perhaps be able to make a more informed choice whether to accept an ordinary runner from those lines or to have a crack at a good horse from a different background. I imagine that those different backgrounds would get to offer more representatives that might not be quite so overlooked as now.

With today's victory of Dubawi's son Poet's Voice who last year won the Champagne stakes GR2 and beating a high class field this afternoon including Makfi,could he be a better prospect than Makfi next term?I was not at Ascot today so don't know what was said in terms of future plans.
Another good looking son of Dubawi.

Hannon wishing he hadnt ducked that now I'll bet ;)  As a specimen no contest.  Cold facts suggest RvW and CC are both better horses than Makfi and sexy Dubawi link aside would in my humbles make better choices if priced up as some say they will be (although if Makfi doesnt win again he easily dropped £5k yesterday)

I agree completely yer ma,seeing Makfi yesterday I'd say 20k let alone 25k looks expensive 15/17k plenty enough for me,of the 2 I'd rather P'Voice wonder if they will retire him?

Poets Voice did look frightfully smart in the Paddock yesterday (on the box, mind!). And Makfi does look a little ordinary by comparison. However small and strong is often no bad thing in the commercial stakes is it.

Makfi and Rip van Winkle, currently dropping like stones in fee potential is no bad thing for me as I'm not a great fan of top of the shop valuations. A lower fee doesn't mean a lesser foal. And if no.1 crop is great looking then they will be valued to the top of the sires record, not to the disappointments I feel.

See Makfi is retired and at 25k as was indicated,I'd say they have set him at that fee now as connections can't afford to get him beat at the BC,looks a bit expensive to me!

Looks a lot expensive to me. It's all very well getting involved in a bidding war to buy these horses, but he needed to shine until the end of the year to play at that fee level.

If they think he will be so popular next season then good luck to them, but they will be doing a hell of a discount job in subsequent years.

Your lot performing at Park Paddocks Prima?

'Besieged by mare owners' apparently.  Presumably before trailing in behind the one time listed winner Red Jazz.  Convenient bout of ringworm and surprisingly no offer to come play in Kyoto (well after any ringworm should be gone).  His Dad wont be more than £30k next year..let me think.

Yer ma, do you really think that Dubawi will stick at 30?

He's hurtling to the big time which is currently stocked at 65k. I think he will get closer to that level than just under half. It'll be a devil of a job to get one as well, for mere mortals, a fact that the Makfi camp are hoping to capitalise on I shouldn't wonder!

Now, what happens if Poets Voice wins in the States and they retire him too???

This horse came up in conversation at a dinner party last night,it seems the general consensus is he has been priced to high,several of the guests said they are using him so D.Redvers might pull it off year 1,but you are both right with yes he will have to deal after first year,and for a touch more anyone would want his sire,I too can see a price rise with Dubawi and he may go to 65k myself I could see him also at say 50k,my point about Coolmore sires apart from Galileo on another thread,Dubawi,Dansili,O.Dream,I.Spirit all of these are red hot none are Coolmore results show in the ring.

I suppose 1 Darley 2 Juddmonte 1 Coolmore, 1 I.N.S. makes a decent balance perhaps?