Lastminuter. . .

I like three lots myself no.47,51,115. What are your opinions i've been talking to an agent about one of them but cant say which one i'm not going to the sale myself though

Was on the phone there wont be going near any of them nownot that i had big intentions anyway

I would have looked at 47 but the other 2 didn't really fit. I think I won't go as my list only really ended up at about 8 possibles. May ring an agent in the morning about one I loved on paper.

I havent been to this sale in a good few years but the last time i was there it was very hard to pick up something. But in saying that times have changed but i enquired about one lot but i wont be going any further than that.

I wanted lot 40, bigtime. Not a trad black type page so I thought I might stand a chance.
Spoke to a trusted agent this morning who didn't put me off and I thought her yearling price made her a pretty sure thing physically.

I think however that my theory about the few likeable ones selling to the hilt was well and truely borne out!!

See lot 74 infoal to Oratorio sold for 800 how does that make sense. Surely her resulting foal will fetch more than that and the foal should be big being out of a Hernando mare. The lots i were looking were all withdrawn i new that yesterday i was looking forward to see what they'd make. There were a couple sold cheap that could easily have been bought to make a profit but i dont want to load up on mares

Lot 74 was announced not in foal (there were a few at it like that). I'd like to think I got a bargain but only time will tell.  Sinister Ruckus Lot 47 would've be a great buy but too much for me. Redvers going to £50k for Lot 40 seems pricey esp if he's going to stick one of his guff in it.  The best looking Cape Cross in the sale was Lot 94 and I'm gutted I missed it (£2.4k!).  Overall I thought it was an encouraging sale.

Guys,

Fascintaing thread. Can those of you lucky enough to put your inteerest and hobby into action and buy a mare to breed from, enlighten the rest of us just what you're looking for.

I appreciate there's probably no hard and fast rule, or you may even be unwilling to share, but it would be great to read how an interest in a page of a catalogue then goes on to become a reality.

Somerset,

            Perfection really. It's quite simple!
     I like to think that we all see a different angle, but to be honest, there is a recognised 'look' that is universally popular and that's where the big bucks come in.
     What you see on the catalogue page has a big bearing on what is desirable and obviously in terms of getting down to a shortlist that has massive bearing. It probably doesn't matter what level you play at I suspect we all have a similar sized shortlist to  actually view, because if you are smart, then you'll only look at smart horses and if you are ordinary then you know what will be out of range. I will look at pages just above my price range and just below what I'd really like. There are some pedigrees I just cannot stomach and conversley those way too smart would only drop into my price range if the mare is too hideous to have around. I have to muck them out ever morning so it's no good if I can't stand the sight of them!
     When you 1st start out you learn a big list of common confirmation faults and try to avoid every one. However if your budget is similarly embryonic you manage to avoid the faults only to find yourself with an incredibly ordinary horse that will never add anything to the racecourse!
     Now I have faults that I can bear but ordinary is not one of them.
     To sum it up - as I'm sure you've lost the will to live by now - QUALITY is all.
     And if you stand outside the paddock at the races, you'll probably be able to spot it yourself once you've seen enough. Particularly if you travel from Hamilton one day to Newmarket the next!
     Sorry if I've not done too much detail, someone else may embellish the twiddly bits

Somerset Sam,It is very hard to define what you look for in a mare. It can be personal but also follow trends. Here starts the converse world of bloodstock breeding! Like Pot'M there are pedigrees that are perfectly acceptable to the market but we wouldn't touch them. There are broodmare sires that are fine, but I wouldn't buy a mare by.(Singspiel and Rainbow Quest spring instantly to mind!)
Broadly you look for a mare that looks as though she will breed you a 2yo. Two year olds are what the commercial market wants and to start off with a mare that looks as though she would come into her own as a 7yo is only going to make a hard battle harder!Another thing to consider with buying a broodmare is how easy she will be to mate, I don't mean actually cover but what stallions her pedigree allows her to go to. A lovely mare with good conformation is going to be hard work initially if she isn't able to be covered with any of the 'hot' sire lines.
The most obv thing you want is black-type, and depth f it as well. A light page with one Group winner, even if it is a Group 1 winner, is not quite so desirable as one where there is consistent black-type down the page. A strong family is a must IMO and failing a pedigree stuffed with high class horses, or budget constraints on buying those, then the next most important thing on the page are WINNERS! The aim after all is to breed racehorses not ornaments with great pedigrees. A pedigree with plenty of winners and perhaps lower level horses that have run plenty of times to demonstrate soundness holds more appeal personally than one when there are few runners, less winners but one Gr 1 horse. I speak from harsh experience here, Slick fell into a trap of being seduced by a superb looking mare out of a Gr 1 winning 2yo, but was being sold by a shrewd breeder  after only 2 foals. The dam had bred only 2 runners from 5ish foals but only one win. Against her own advice Slick bought the mare for a little over 100k. Needless to say the mare produced foals that were almost deformed and we sold her 5 years later for 3k. Myself I prefer to have a hard-knocking tough and sound horse that can win and for that I can accept a lighter page, though I like there to be a class horse no further back than 4th Dam.

No chance of a name on that mare Prima?!!!

Was their no way afterwards you thought, 'oh I see why that happened now' ?

I'm pretty anxious to learn from anyones disasters, not just my own catalogue

Pot M, No there is no chance of that mares name, anonymity is essential as you can imagine,but I do know that animal is now enjoying her days as a pet in England (out of the system) and she is NOT my pet mare.


   'oh I see why that happened now' ?

Yes from the moment the hammer fell,she was one of those mares that look great in every way,but like fools the obvious was shouting loud and clear,but sometimes when people are looking with rose tinted glasses they themselves get swept away.
But that's horses and how it goes sometimes,we do still have a name we always call that mare if we ever speak about her.....(Miss Moneypit!)but at least we can laugh about it now.But a purchase like that will never be repeated.

I wish I could be so confident!
I'm sure my mistakes are pretty similar every time perhaps just changing from Bay to Chesnut occaisionally
You're right though, if you can't pick yourself up, dust yourself off etc. then the game is not for you!

Pot M,I am NEVER confident! When buying mares,its always exciting when you are bidding on a good one,but occasionally like everyone it does go wrong,that mare went wrong big time.
But we all live for another day,if you can't loose sometimes then like you say "the game is not for you",as I've said before its like playing Russian Roulette.

PD,

Looking at the broodmares sires list Im amazed that you mentioned an avoidance of Rainbow Quest, who's currently in the top 4. Have you had bad experiences with his progeny previously? Fascinated to hear what you think, going on what's been mentioned previously is he too much of an influence of stamina for a commercial breeder?

I suppose you have to go on your own instinct with these decisions and ultimately be stung or rewarded financially.

With regards to conformation what would you overlook if every other box had a tick. For example, I was reading the other day that Mark Johnston would rather buy a horse back at the knee rather than over at the knee.

Can I also ask both yourself and PM a couple of other questions:

If a mare has proven herself as a producer of winners from less glamorous sires is that likely to push up her sales price if she ever goes through the ring? Knowing that more fashionable sires might produce something better.

If a sister or even half sister to a mare you have has had success with a certain sire, would you be tempted to go to the same sire with your own mare, or even a son of that sire?

S.Sam,My view with Rainbow Quest is that he is a source of fragility plenty of his stock seem fragile and not being able to run so much,but he has always covered mares at a level with good pedigrees,Juddmonte have sent him some great mares over the years,and the offspring of those high class matings will be covered at a level, so he has always a chance of a good horse coming through.
A couple of runners out of his daughters spring to mind,Footstepsinthesand who only ran 3 times ask yourself why..........and then think about the great Steinbeck his son like his sire fragile,another is Aqlaam spent half his life unsound. His dam is a half sister to the ultra tough and sound Persian Punch so you wouldn't think that her dam line was responsible for Aqlaam's unsoundness and Oasis Dream is not known for unsound stock either so to me that points to RQ. In breeding you always want to avoid horses like these as we need tough horses than can stand racing,mind you there have been a few exceptions like Rakti who was a very tough horse winning 6 GR1's.I just hate the stallion,(RQ) sons of Blushing Groom have never really been that acceptable overall.
As for Singspiel he was a good racehorse but imo offers far too much stamina for me I always in a way liked his sire In The Wings but as time has shown he was a typical son of SW stamina all day long,Singspiel has imo not been helped as Darley seem hell bent on covering mares from such stamina laden families,but as before he may do it because like RQ he too has covered some good mares (god knows why) the winner of the July stakes the other day was out of a daughter of his.

Yes I too can except some conformation faults I have never seen 'the perfect horse'despite what I read in the Coolmore brochure,saying that though I don't know how old you are but a horse who was almost perfect was the 1978 St.Leger winner Julio Mariner,he imo is by far the best looking horse I've ever seen.
Danehill was famous for being back of the knee lots of his sons are but with his line I can accept that,I think when looking at any potential purchase you need to take a overall view, if you like the stamp of the horse and the faults aren't going to be detrimental to a racing career then you will have to accept them. Obv the less faults the better! Some families are renown for always getting the same fault again and again, Tenby's family for instance always had very poor front limbs, buying a mare from that family you would need to bear in mind that she could get those legs herself. If she has the awful limbs it is almost guaranteed her stock will too. Looking at that family nothing has bred on from the inital high class mare. It is what I would describe as a 'dead' family, but looking at the limbs produced it is not a big surprise.

"If a mare has proven herself as a producer of winners from less glamorous sires is that likely to push up her sales price if she ever goes through the ring? Knowing that more fashionable sires might produce something better"

This a difficult one,again it depends on the family. The fact that the mare has produced winners is always a plus point, however does the fact that they are from lesser quality sires give her added value? If the mare is from a good family the  the fact she is producing winners may be evidence that she is 'upgrading' the sire and getting them despite him rather than because of him. It does not always follow though that she will produce higher class horses from higher class coverings. The mares age is also a factor, if she has produced winners but is old then her value will be limited. Higher level stud fees do not always mean higher returns in the sale ring, an English friend of ours did well and bred several Black type horses from an average dam using average sires. Once the mare produced a Gr 1 winner he then sent the mare to 'better' sires. Her sales returns plummeted. The resultant offspring were either unraced or minor winners only. I think that something to be aware of is if you have a mare performing well at her level and then step her up in grade she then has to compete in the sale ring with some very good mares, do your mares minor winners (albeit by cheaper or less successful sires) stand inspection next to dams of multiple black type horses? This is where sale price can be affected and so when buying her you need to consider what your profit margin would be and should you go that extra bid?

"If a sister or even half sister to a mare you have has had success with a certain sire, would you be tempted to go to the same sire with your own mare, or even a son of that sire?"

Yes! If that sire line is commercial and that the horse the sister produced was precocious.

Good Lord, PD, have you been mainlining coffee this morning? you're on fire

Somerset Sam, Agreeing with PD that assessing the value of a mare successful with lesser mates is tricky. In all honesty you cannot really judge cause and effect because you don't actually have anything to compare it with. However I do think it is one of those factors that probably ellicit an extra bid or two as buyers reach their limit and think 'ah but with better stallions'. . . And ofcourse, your opposing bidders have never factored that in have they!
It is also true that mares - and stallions - often find a level that they cannot be budged from.
The famous case is Royal Applause v Danehill Dancer. A ding dong battle for 1st season sire won by Royal Applause but the resultant better mares made no difference to his results whereas with Danehill Dancer, well. . .

I remember that Gerald Leigh bought Canton Silk, an ordinarily bred handicapper, with the express aim of using top stallions to 'breed a pedigree' onto her. He succeeded. Barathea Gossamer, Desert Style and many other stakes horses descend from her. However he also said with what he learned he would never try it again and as a very wealthy man he tapped into some great families therafter. Most people are great believers in the 'quality' family, but perhaps Leigh was never quite as successful with his 'reknowned family' mares as with old Canton Silk's tribe.

It's one of the things that keep me endlessly fascinated, the power of a 'family' - or not! ?

Mating choices, are a massively personal thing and plenty of people tell you that repeating a similar cross that has found success is positively no help. However if something similar has been successful most of us would have a go at replicating it, why wouldn't you?
As PD says though, commercial considerations will influence here depending on your aims.

great stuff here gents pleasure to read

I really have no idea about horses but could someone give me a quick run down with regards to owning a horse.

What sort of money is requires, keeping the thing in training, vet bills, stables, entering into meetings etc

Thanks

I heard a funny story about one of the lots i mentioned above while at York i think i'm pretty fortunate