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Prima Donna
04 Jul 10 20:52
Date Joined: 29 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 4,152 | Blogger: Prima Donna's blog
Just looking for new sires for next year,at the moment I've no idea if he will be at stud or not yet.
He is a tough sort who also has the Hannon factor behind him,his win today stamped his class and confirmed he is a good colt,but being a son of Arakan out of a mare by Sharrood will he have big appeal?I know the season is only half way and things may change better again or worse.But he is a nice looking horse and made 26,000 euro's as a yearling,what do breeders think about him,commercial or not?
Pause Switch to Standard View D I C K TURPIN is he worth using?
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Report RipVanWinkle July 4, 2010 9:35 PM BST
He wont be very commercail and his breeding doesnt really appeal to me but he is very tough and talented himself and i'm sure if he is pitched at a good price he will hold some appeal. Its obvious that Canford Cliffs will catch the eye more but being by Tagula he i wouldn't really go near him and who is going to support him because i cant see Darley buying him.

Its very hard to know what horses will be retiring for next year i'm sure Rip Van Winkle will and he'll definitely be the most commercial horse unless something really starts acting like a champion
Report potentialmillionaire July 4, 2010 10:37 PM BST
You and Rip Van, Rip Van.!
Not a particularly brilliant 2yo record
Not particularly sound
Not particularly good damline
Not particularly typical of his sires best efforts
Oh and 3 wins + his maiden.
Now I'm sure he won't be short of mates, but I don't think he's nailed on for anything in particular. . .

I digress. . .

Dick Turpin. ummm. I love horses that keep going to the well and keep doing it.
At least with Arakan you get plenty of quality on that half of the pedigree.
Usual proviso's then. If you like him to look at and the price and venue is correct, then he makes the shortlist.
If they are going to run him every 16 days throughout the year then I think they would be mad to race on at 4 so perhaps he will be one we're discussing in depth come October.
Report Prima Donna July 4, 2010 10:56 PM BST
Pot'M, your points about Rip Van (the horse!) are very true. But the Coolmore hype and marketing machine will be in overdrive for their first son of Galileo. The fact he is is talked up as being best over  mile will not show him as slightly unusual for his sire, just how fast he is. At least that is what the ads will tell you!I have no doubt that he will be commercial, Slick says she might even send one or two herself.Which is saying something as she is only a grudging admirer of Galileo being firmly in the 'Montjeu is the better sire' camp.Grin
Report RipVanWinkle July 5, 2010 12:40 AM BST
Pot'M i'm a big fan of Rip Van Winkle because of a connection with the horse and i know he could have proved more but he has shown that he has raw talent and being a son of Galileo he will be what breeders want.

Do you see Dick Turpin being commercial?
Report Prima Donna July 5, 2010 1:19 PM BST
Just another point about D i c k Turpin though he not from a very classy family he is from a very prolific early one with plenty of speed and lots of winners,that imo is always a good starting place,couple that with his good looks I reckon he's worth a try,his stock should be popular with the likes of Peter Doyle and Richard Hannon.
I wonder how much he would be I'd say 3.5k to 4k do you agree?
Report ben10 July 5, 2010 1:35 PM BST
Really, for a Group 1 winner which is definitely no fluke and rock solid mile form in what looks a good era (outside Ballydoyle!).
How much will Paco Boy be iyo?
Report potentialmillionaire July 5, 2010 2:50 PM BST
I think that if Dickie T retired right now then that price quoted might have legs, but if he enhances his record - quite likely imo - then who knows. Against him is the fact that the Jean Prat is usually a real 'consolation' Gp 1 although this year it seemed the real deal.
However if he adds a traditionally strong race to his record, or maybe 2 then he could command upto 10k I would guess.
I haven't really given his pedigree much thought though!

I've got a barrener that I would happily ship over to you for next season, so I will be giving Rip Van (the horse!) some thought. But you know how it is, if he is their best to retire next year he will be fitted into the slot as the best horse to retire and be priced accordingly.

I shall endeavour not to buy into that!
Report Prima Donna July 5, 2010 5:41 PM BST
ben 10,I don't know at the moment but I may be totally wrong but I'd say Paco Boy (who I do like)will retire at something in the region of 8/10k 10k being the top,where he goes god knows,I'm sure he would be popular here or in England,I could see him at The National Stud in NMKT or Whitsbury Manor with Chris Harper,I understand the National Stud in NMKT are looking for a top class horse,but with them their budget is limited, he is the sort to be in their price range as he doesn't have the most fashionable of pedigree.
Or if he comes over here perhaps a place like Ballyhane or Gay O'Callaghan,Gay I think wants a new one also, but as he stood his sire would he go for him?I think he the right price.

I'm going to hold out with my view at the moment with D i c k Turpins potential stud fee,I know you may think I'm too low but he does not have much behind him,and people want value, better to cover plenty and give him a real chance,if he does go on and wins more top races the most I could see him being is 6k,but at the moment that is my opinion.
Report potentialmillionaire July 5, 2010 8:06 PM BST
I'm going to hold out with my view at the moment with D i c k Turpins potential stud fee,I know you may think I'm too low but he does not have much behind him,and people want value, better to cover plenty and give him a real chance,if he does go on and wins more top races the most I could see him being is 6k,but at the moment that is my opinion.

I think that prior to 2008 say, the 3 grand sire was really a misnomer. They couldn't go to anything like a decent stud, no-one took them seriously and it was nigh on impossible to get noticed at the sales.
Even though I am not at the top of the game, by a long chalk (live in hope) I had long since stopped going in at that level and I am quite sure cheap did not represent value.
If your 3.5 would have been 6 in the good old days then maybe his fee would have made sense at that level.
I'm not sure things have changed that much though and unless whoever gets Dick Turpin has a bit of belief in him and have the confidence to pitch him higher then I think they should look long and hard as to whether they should bother atall. Particularly, hopefully, given that most of those type of mares have been taken out of production.
Report neill d July 5, 2010 8:30 PM BST
Sounds like with his pedigree and the other good milers going to stud,ie Canford(prob) Rip and Paco(defo) he won't get a great book of mares and so won't get much of a chance.
Report Prima Donna July 5, 2010 8:46 PM BST
Pot'M, whilst the argument about fee level holds water in it's truest sense, horse breeding is not in reality quite so cut and dried. When horses like Winker Watson retired to stud at 3.5k that is perhaps a little high for his pedigree/racecourse performance, it makes sense in another way because any lower and he would slip below the 'credible' list.
However there are sires who have started at such lowly fees and become useful sires. An obv example would of course be Danehill Dancer but there are others too, Night Shift, Alzao and Pivotal were never overly expensive in their early years.As a matter of fact both sires of R Hannons star milers this season stood at low fees, Tagula 4k Irish Punts and Arakan 4.5 euro. Even a horse like Firebreak has produced group class stock from £3500 fee and no more than 40 foals.
I would disagree with you to some extent and say that cheap can represent value. Our own mares cover fee ranges from the Coolmore 'privates'to just 1k. The horse standing for 1k is well bred and showed great potential on course before an injury. His foals are super and if you had paid 12k for him you wouldn't be happier with the foals.
Report RipVanWinkle July 5, 2010 11:59 PM BST
I've heard now of a few studs looking for stallions for next year but there not willing to pay big money so i dont no what will happen to some of them. Maybe the owners will retain the horse and place him at a stud but i'm finding it very hard to imagine Dick Turpin being a major success at stud
Report Prima Donna July 6, 2010 5:56 PM BST
RipVanWinkle     05 Jul 10 23:59 
i'm finding it very hard to imagine Dick Turpin being a major success at stud.

So am I Rip Van,don't think anyone said or implied he was ever going to be a major success at stud,If he does go to stud at a reasonable fee I could see him getting 2 y'olds,  his foals/yearling being exceptable at sales like Doncaster Festival or a nice one at the St.Leger sale at Donny,at a price I could see him being commercial.
Report potentialmillionaire July 6, 2010 7:33 PM BST
I would disagree with you to some extent and say that cheap can represent value. Our own mares cover fee ranges from the Coolmore 'privates'to just 1k. The horse standing for 1k is well bred and showed great potential on course before an injury. His foals are super and if you had paid 12k for him you wouldn't be happier with the foals.

I think we've swapped camps Prima, I'm fighting for the marketable sales horse and you are fighting for the nice horse to perhaps race!!
I know I couldn't begin to try and sell a horse off a 2 grand or less sire.
Back in the day it was easier for the cheapy to get started because he would have had more support in the breeding shed because he wasn't going to be completely ignored at the sales.
I think things are very different now because there is no 'bottom' to the market any more.
Report workrider July 6, 2010 10:06 PM BST
just on a point of note re speedy types , whistling wind was a sire in the irish national stud in the 70s he diden't have a great pedigree but year after year he turned 2yo winner after winner and was always fully booked.
Report potentialmillionaire July 6, 2010 10:16 PM BST
Yes workrider, how times have changed.
Report potentialmillionaire April 23, 2011 6:49 PM BST
Thought I'd trawl through and find this in case anyone wishes to discuss further.

He's getting harder to ignore and full books for Paco Boy and Equiano suggests he won't be overly held back as whilst 'faultable' in different ways, so were they.
Report Prima Donna April 24, 2011 10:33 AM BST
Like him then Pot M?I also think he could be worth a punt next year at a price I'm sure he will bag a GR1 soon.Good looks are better any-day than a great page BUT horrific looks,Slick thinks (atm) he will go to stud abroad,tough sort and good looking I kinda like him and will keep a close eye on him.
Report potentialmillionaire April 24, 2011 5:44 PM BST
Abroad? Where has Slick got in mind Prima? He has way too much appeal for a back of beyond location I would have thought. France maybe after his Jean Prat win?

I had a good look at his page yesterday and I'd forgotten that I actually quite like it! Not blue blooded by any means but a 'trainers page' that never seems to grind to a halt. I remember desperately wanting to buy Halmahera as a foal but he was too nice for me. Without doubt the McEnery's are great horsemen every day of the week.

You can take him to the well as often as you like and get a run for your money. That's a great asset in a potential stallion for sure too.

Arakan. That's where the probem lies.
Report Prima Donna April 24, 2011 6:56 PM BST
Yes Pot M France was where she was thinking,and you are right about the Arakan doubt,but I tend to agree with the other plus points you mention he sure looks one tough runner,I'd send him one can't see him being more than 7k euros mind even if he does go on and win say something like the Sussex,I reckon over here is where he will end up even a place like Ballyhane would you agree with that?
Report potentialmillionaire April 24, 2011 7:45 PM BST
These conversations hold a bit of deja vu do they not!

Rest assured, if I want to use Dick Turpin, it'll be over with you he'll end up Cry.
Having said that, I walked in to Showcasing this week who is super efficient and super fertile so I suppose I shouldn't moan too much about lack of opportunity. Happy

As I said earlier, I think there are parallels with Paco Boy and the like so I wouldn't be convinced his type couldn't end up over here. He might have a National Stud look about him maybe? I could see an announcement about a stud buying into him quite soon as they wise up to the fact he probably isn't getting getting any cheaper right now.

I suspect 7 or 8 k is about right for him, but it looked to me that he has improved from 3 to 4 so where does that leave Coolmore with Canford Cliffs?
Report Prima Donna April 24, 2011 7:50 PM BST
Under pressure I guess,and yeah I think he looks better than last year too,good point about the English National stud I could see that,like you say we may yet here of some stud buying into him,chatting today over a boozy lunch with a few breeders the view was he does have plenty of appeal but he will always be held back a bit by his sire.
Report Prima Donna April 24, 2011 7:54 PM BST
BTW good luck with your showcasing mare.
Report potentialmillionaire April 24, 2011 9:31 PM BST
Thanks for that Prima, I trust your lunch was fun and as you seem ok this evening I assume the Vodka abstaintion is holding. . .Grin
Report Prima Donna April 24, 2011 9:44 PM BST
Lunch was indeed fun,and yes tonight's going well too!One of my sons with his family are staying with us right now,and yes I never want to ever taste effing Vodka again sticking with a plain old gin and tonic for now........[;)]Laugh
Report sammy_fool April 24, 2011 10:37 PM BST
i like this horse alot too and think he would make a nice sire as he is a very good model.i wonder if he beats cc in the next race how that would effect both horses stud value.will be an interesting race.
Report A_T April 25, 2011 9:39 AM BST
This is a very good racehorse indeed and he looks magnificent. Hannon said after Sandown: "Both Dick Turpin and Canford Cliffs are top-class milers, but if we can stretch them out in distance it not only increases our options but also raises their profile as potential stallion prospects."

I don't think this horse stays 10f and they are just looking to avoid running him against Coolmore's Canford Cliffs. D Turpin's 2010 season was messed about by the yard and it will be a real shame if he has to play second fiddle to CC again.
Report potentialmillionaire April 25, 2011 7:36 PM BST
I agree with you A-T, they need to treat Dick Turpin like a potential stallion this year. If I owned him I'd be getting very involved with his programme right now.

Canford Cliffs can not run in every Gp 1 mile and Dick Turpin shouldn't be expected to. Interesting indeed to see how the two measure up this year.
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