NH breeding

Hi JWR,you may be new to breeding but you have already figured out more than most NH breeders! The reality is that in the current market producing most NH horses is not economic. Stud fees have dropped but not by enough. Foal numbers have reduced significantly but there is still massive oversupply. Aside from stud fee the cost of production includes registration, vet fees, transport, farrier costs, depreciation of the mare (an often overlooked cost) and significant sales commission costs. Too many breeders look to only the best possible outcome and ignore the probability that they will get something worth much less......

Cheers for the response victors...it just appears to me that the revenue genrated from NH sales struggles to break even with costs...

I am keen to get involved in the industry but would be doing so well aware that the likelihood of profit is slim...but guys running this as their sole income?!

You should get interested in the flat first then if you get lucky with something on the flat you could then get a couple of national hunt mares. But i'd say to stay away from the national hunt at the start. You should go to the november broodmare sale at goofs theres always mares in there that turn out decent

Goffs not Goofs although they could be there to

JWR,
I can't begin to tell you where to start, and indeed would far prefer to tell you not to.
I don't know how much knowledge you have - and believe me, you won't have enough - but as previously posted, you have made a connection with the reality of the situation and that's in your favour.
If you are monied and light on knowledge then you need to pay for help - and there are integrity issues here I'm afraid - and then prepare to enjoy the process of losing your money in pursuit of your dream.
If you have time, I would recommend as much practical experience as possible. Knowledge of a pedigree and the winner of a race is never going to count for as much as the knowledge of the individual horse and it is the confirmation of your horse and how much physical quality it possesses that will be what walks round the ring to profit - or loss.
Please don't attempt to go it alone until you have put in the hours (and days and months and years). If you can't, then investigate which agent/mentor suits you and prepare to investigate them thoroughly.
But you're right, it's going to be nigh on impossible, particularly with only 3 mares and Rip Van is right to advise the flat route, but that is nearly as tough right now!

Thanks for your comments folks...my %u2018knowledge%u2019 as little as it is has been gained from purely academic sources, I%u2019ve been reading for several years on the topics of conformation and breeding.  I have no hands-on experience whatsoever but it%u2019s something I%u2019d be itching to get (don%u2019t know how I possibly can). My urge to get into breeding rather than simply ownership is based on a desire to have more interaction with the animal (s). An uncle has a relatively good point to pointer (mare) that may prove the beginning of this foray, but obviously I'm trying to soak up as much information as I can.


I%u2019m sure I%u2019m not alone, but I%u2019d have zero interest in joining a syndicate and having my 5/6 race days a year and 2/3 stable visits, if I outlay several thousand pounds I%u2019d like to live and breathe the business...something rightly or wrongly I think you can get when breeding.

I%u2019m as you say light on pocket and light on knowledge but, planning for the next few years.

Can I ask the contributors here what backgrounds you have in the industry / sport? My own is purely spectator based, point to points in Ireland for years, now I%u2019m living in London I%u2019m restricted to ten or so of the bigger meetings a year, tingle creek, festival, trials day, Lexus meeting, punchestown for a couple of days...with a sprinkling of Cork /Limerick and Sandown when time allows.

I have no real involvement in breeding, other than talking to friends who are breeders. If you are starting off the most important thing to do is put yourself in the shoes of your customer, the buyer. Find out what they look for in a horse, on a page etc etc. If your mare doesn't have a good page, then you need a really good individual to make a decent price. If you have a decent page and a decent individual, you should still do well in this market. nice horses are still making nice money. The advantage of NH is that the stallion fees are so much lower than the flat (and therefore so are the sales prices). You can find a decent NH stallion for %u20AC3-6k. I'd imagine it starts at %u20AC10k on the flat and works up to %u20AC25k (excluding the top notch stallions). As the other posters have said, you need to get some help with bloodlines, as the breeding of some mares make it difficult to go to some NH stallions.

I worked for bloodstock agent before having a flat licence for a few years.  Due to financial & health reasons, I am taking a break but still involved with pointers (including extremely successful one this year!).  I love both codes and still take a huge interest in the breeding side (have one sprint mare in foal this year).  More than happy to help (with no strings) and plenty can vouch for me!

always enjoy rvw and potm and others contribution as someone who is a bit of a risk taker and especially in cash strapped times,I am wondering what the aforementioned contributors think of this idea,would it be practical if there were struggling owner/breeders with a mare who has produced successful progeny in the past,for someone like myself prepared to pay a stud fee to a proven stallion( additional costs to be discussed)could this be a realistic proposal to both parties.

Genuine replies only please.

Pretender, Coolmore do this sort of foal share quite successfuly. It used to work that if it was a colt, they took a half share. If a filly, breeder kept it. Just meant the breeder had no outlay, ever, and got to keep the fillies and keep them or sell them. In the current environment, I'd say you'd have plenty willing to take you up on that offer, particularly if it was a nomination to a decent stallion.

Pretender i'd advice you that if you are going breeding to do it on your own or with a person you trust as things can go extremely wrong and you dont want to make enemies.

JWR,
  I am a hands on one man band and I worked in the breeding industry for about 6 years after the civil service! and a pony mad childhood. The conventinal route - posh studs, abroad, bloodstock agent etc. The little people can probably teach you most though. I still consider myself a slow learner and it's particularly tough right now but then this industry doesn't have the monopoly on that!
If you are going to remain London based then you are going to pay for every single aspect of a breeding 'empire' and frankly you cannot expect to make a N.H. venture pay.
The only upside is, that whomever boards your mares for you may be a good shot at showing you the ropes. You'll still have to choose a stud owner carefully, but at least they will then have a vested interest in keeping you in business for as long as possible!

Potential, thanks for your advice... I'm currently living in London but its a forced exile, I work as an architect and the motherland (Ireland) is in a mess...any breeding will take place back in Ireland, Co Cork to be precise. I live a short distance from numerous studs & NH trainers, Rathbarry Stud to name one(home of presenting, Dubai Destination and Robin Des Champs). Had I been living in Ireland this would be far easier and there would be help and advice readily available, but I'm hoping to purchase some land in Cork over the next couple of months (theres a small farm for sale 22 acres which I've made an offer on). Ideally I'd like to soak as much information as I can over the next year or two so when I return I can start...albeit at a very small scale.

You sound as if you have a nice structure in embryo, and  if your enthusiasm counts for anything - well at least you'll have much fun. Hopefully after you've completed your 'apprenticeship' the industry might be in a better place too.

Hi JWR i Am intrigued with your plan, have similar ideas myself,and come from your part of the country,and have similar experience to yourself,and like yourself i live in Dublin,and will be here for a while yet, i saw a nice mare at the Derby sale at Tatts,really caught my eye from a ped point of view,and as it turned out a friend of mine had checked out this mare for someone else,said she was a nice mover strong ect,not sold on d day,€5000 bid, made contact with seller and would be bought for a little more.really got me thinking, i have a few acres down south.so grazing not a problem,only testing d water at present, but if you want to view the pedigree,my email is buck2601@gmail.com,

bucko: always buy outside the ring.serious value out there at the moment.
breeders cant give them away,have a look at www.itba.ie !
breeders cant even lease the mares.
can i ask,how old was the mare u were looking at?is the pedigree active?

Hi Jungle,3yo,Flemensfirth,dam unraced 3rd produce i tink,dam half sister to Alexander Banquet,on hols at d moment will get you lot number later,you ask is the ped active,maybe not active enough by your standards,let me know what you think,lot no 406 i tink,(All fillys to date oldest 5yo, all unraced.Then again would it be easier to buy a foal, and get started that way.

Hi Bucko,

Yeh,I see the pedigree.seems decent.
The reason I mention active pedigree is that if one in the pedigree clicks,then you've a 1/2 sister to a winner.
If none in the pedigree run,then if you bred from this mare you'll have a job selling the offspring as you'll be going back to the 2nd dam to find anything noteworthy.
Not sure what your budget is & what your overall objective is,breeding maybe racing one & breeding from her?

Anyone on this forum will tell you the biggest ingredient you need is luck!
If I was in your shoes I'd speak to as many people as possible,maybe dip your toe with a cheaper mare to start off it.

Thanks Jungle,im only testing d water so to speak,idealy i would like to race mare but too expensive on my own, unless she was leased for free, its only ifs and buts couldnt bank on it,so many horses out there at moment,i would just like to get a foot on d ladder,maybe buyin a foal is an easier way of doing it,
Thanks again for your views

Bucko, I've been away with work recently, I'll drop you a mail later today.

Hi JWR1979,Just wonderin did you try to email me?