ROCK OF GIBRALTAR

I'm no expert, but he's got a very poor dam side.

I don't know how you measure 'flop' but I would prefer 'disappointing'!
I daresay we all have our theories, but the fact is, there are better prospects than him that have failed and many worse who have reaped wild success.
From the start I felt he was carrying a bit too much Be My Guest which didn't endear him to me, but he gets a lot of winners, some with a lot of class so I think we should go easy on him perhaps.

seemed nice

He actually didn't breed that bad his stud fee was awful high at the start though. He is very light in bone compared to other stallions. Some of his progeny are very light in the leg aswell and have been known as very prone to leg injuries. Some people say the reason he wasn't good was because he was so inbred personally inbreeding doesn't affect me but who knows really.

I think he still has a future if O'Brien trains more of his progeny. He will be a good broodmare sire if you breed his offspring with a complete outcross stallion although that might be hard to stay away from Northern Dancer.

If he came down in price again next year which he will because he doesn't really have anything to give him a boost this year unless an older horse does well we will probably send a mare to him.

my opologies pm,i worded that wrong,disappointing would be the rite way of putting it

Perhaps when breeders look at stallion prospects like the Rock it might be a good idea to look a bit more into the pedigree's of horses like him,he was without doubt a brilliant runner, but its a completely different ball game in the breeding shed despite all the help his owners and breeders have given him sending very good mares, he to date has been a little disappointing to say the least.Most stallions fail at the new job, so with his weak dam line and not being the most robust sort its not really such a big surprise,I think he would find it hard to upgrade a mare but not impossible,saying that though some can, case in point being Danhill Dancer always the best imo to get the best chance from your mare esp' if she has a weak page is to use a stallion from a very good producing family that way I feel you stand a better chance of getting a good prospect both for the sale ring and on the track,I too think he looks top heavy at his fee he would be better at say 10k no more he might find his slot.

hmmmmmmm

What do you mean Masterminded?

sorry.. i know little at all about breeding but i take a very strong interest. what would be the reason the rock hasn't been as successful as expected?

Master,my points above outline some of the reasons why,also the plain fact of the matter are that some sires just don't make it, not all however good a prospect they look even with all the help they still fail.

I think its a little harsh to say the Rock has been disappointing at stud. So far he has sired 70 horses in Europe with an official rating of 100 or more. In addition he spent a season or two in Japan and hence has no 2 year old runners this year in Europe. His progeny tend to improve with age and I for one think that hes a decent sire albeit without a classic winner yet. For comparison purposes, Kings Best (as hes topical at present after siring 2 Derby winners within the past few weeks) has only produced 55 horses rated 100 or over and Kings Best retired to stud earlier than the Rock.

beefstar1,When you say its a little harsh to say he has overall been a little disappointing,that may indeed be your own view, but within the industry the Rock is rightly perceived as being somewhat disappointing when you consider the quality of the mares he has received, unfortunately that is the plain fact of the matter,whether you agree with that is entirely your choice.

Great racehorse, but what has he done at stud to justify a fee of E22500 ?

Great racehorse


He certainly was, one of the very best we've seen for years,but I can't in all honesty see why he stands for such a high fee myself,
  "His progeny tend to improve with age" as beefstar1 said,which is not what you would expect from a precocious son of Danehill,his fee has been falling from the off,I'd be very surprised if they keep him at that price next year,he could be value at 8/10k but as it is looks top heavy by quite a way.With a blank year as well its very ambitious I'd say.

I would have thought that the percentage of highly rated horses that The Rock has produced is probably pretty similar to Kings Best as I would imagine his mega sized books would've produced a similar number of actual foals despite the disparity in crop numbers. Beefster, I think that a 100k stud fee at the outset demands one hell of career. Owners, trainers and breeders cannot be expected to keep the faith for ever, but as is always the case, the truth lies somewhere between perception and the actual figures.

I think that a 100k stud fee at the outset demands one hell of career. Owners, trainers and breeders cannot be expected to keep the faith for ever,

That's very true Pot M,I'm not 100% sure what trainers really think about him now overall as has been said on this thread disappointing, but still viewed as a okay stallion at a price I don't know what the quality of his latest books have been like, on the downward slope I guess.
When he went to stud he was private I seem to remember, that means they will set the price to reflect the mare and if you are a established  client, and as always with them if you use any others from the roster which as you can imagine they are always very keen on this,we ourselves used him in his first couple of years,the 2nd season advertised at 65k,personally I can't remember him being 100k.

I'm really hacked off about that Prima, I'm usually good at Stud Fees ad infinitum. Looks like another set of facts I'll have to check before opening my big mouth! Yes private, yr 1 I agree. Perhaps it was 80ish? But as you say, the actual figure arrived at depends on many factors.
I gave him some thought for a maiden this year, but really sales figures are scarey and it's only 'independent' buyers for him now. You get the impression that a good one will keep popping up mind, so hopefully they will be opportune for those guys using him.

I'm really hacked off about that Prima, I'm usually good at Stud Fees ad infinitum

Pot M,When selecting any stallion from Coolmore always have in your mind that the advertised fee is only a guide,they are very negotiable,when private it means that its a deal only between them and you,I have no idea what others pay when using the top end sires but prices can vary a lot ,but as I'm sure you know can do a foal share with them too,but if that's ever done the old saying 'give a inch take a mile' springs to mind,you know what I'm saying,they are good to deal with but as someone once told me "the softest thing in JM head are his teeth" [;)]

'give a inch take a mile' springs to mind

That sounds bad you could read that two way's,what I mean is in some cases you could be left feeling who owns the mare.

Prima,
I've only ever done one foal share - and the mare didn't get in foal, but I actually ended up feeling grateful as I decided it wasn't for me. And yes I can imagine that  control of the deal can become a bit of a battle ground to say the least!

In reply to some comments above:
Prima - While you would not expect his progeny to improve with age given his precosious sire line, the Rocks progeny do seem to get better as they get older.
Potential - While I do not have stats to hand for average book sizes of the Rock and Kings Best, Darley are not too shy in covering bug books with their mid range stallions either.
For what it worth, I have used the Rock for the past 2 season and will use him again. I also have a nice broodmare prospect by him and I bought a nice 3 year old by the Rock at the horses in training sale last year that I am looking forward to been a decent dual purpose horse later this year (2 good runs in hurdles earlier this year but then got a leg and will be back around September - also I think we can improve his flat rating from his current mark of 70 to mid 80s). Personally, and it is a personal opinion, I do think that he currently represents decent value relative to the same horses in his price range.

Beefster, you are right, Kings Best has has more representitives for 2006/07/08 &9 so The Rocks percentage of high classers is higher. The individual median timeform rating for the two though is 3lbs higher for Kings Best. Perhaps the high classers attributed to R of G are a reflection of the top class mares he covered from the outset. K.B is fractionally higher w/r.
I don't think Prima or myself has the Rock as a disaster mind, and I'm sure you have some potential amongst your stock You just need a bit of luck like the rest of us!

Pot' M you are in right that I don't think the Rock is a total disaster, but Beefster has kinda shown how disappointing he has been by saying that his stock improve with age and that he owns a nice dual purpose prospect by the Rock. This is not what people are aiming to produce when sending a mare to Rock of Gibraltar! I think that you would have to say that both ROG and KB have underperformed at stud based on expectation from the racecourse/pedigree,(KB certainly on basis of pedigree).As for the Rock as a sire of jump horses, I don't know if his stock are the physical type for it. Many of them are small and lightly made sorts. But the Be My Guest aspect could help.

I think that if your paying around €20000 for The Rock wouldn't you be better off spending it on one of the young and exciting danehill stallion sat Coolmore. They all have good sales records are producing very good stock and with Dylan Thomas and Duke of Marmalade still to come i'd say your return would be bigger if you tried one of them.

I think that he could have done alot better he has no outstanding progeny which is what you need to set you apart from the rest, but maybe if people still support him there might be something still to come.

beefster1,I was thinking that if you like the Rock and think he's good value at 20k +,and you may look long term with a possibility of going jumping,have you thought about another Danehill horse on his first season the new Juddmonte sire Champs Elysees? at 10k, at the moment with his full brother Dansili doing well he imo looks better value,you would stand a much better chance in the sale ring than the Rock right now,also he is a superb looking stallion with a good amount of bone.If you chose to run the foal on and kept it until you ran it I reckon the type you would have would be better than one of the Rocks,what he has over R of G is coming from about the best family in the book,he may be one you could consider for next year.

I've used Champs Elysees this year and will be a bit terrified until I get to see the jaw of the foal but other than that he has to be a good shot - despite stamina reservations - as he is a sturdy model with commercial looking confirmation. Best of all though an endorsement from Prima Donna. . .!

Pot M,I would forgive him that, (his Parrot mouth)as all the other conformation points are a big +,years ago we used Dancing Brave who was very similar as you may remember, and that was a concern more so due to the sheer cost of a nomination,but in the end all was well with the resulting foal. Its one of the points that I could live with on a horse like Champs Elysees as I think he is a very nice prospect and outstanding value,standing with Juddmonte can only be a huge advantage I understand he has had a great book of mares,Good Luck Pot M I hope it goes the right way, you must be looking forward to it a great chioce.

Always relaxed about a 1st seasoner - much less to go wrong.
Mind you always grateful for a bit of moral support too, any choice is potentially a bad one!!!!

Appriciate the replies above. Just to clarrify things. Im definitely not trying to breed a NH horse when I am using the Rock. Just made the point that I have a decent dual purpose horse by him myself. The other are all flat bred and will be disappointed if I have to go the NH route with them!!. As there was talk of Champews Elyses, what would you think of another Juddmonte based stallion -ZAMINDAR. Again I am a big supporter - have 2 mares in foal to him this year, a nice yearling out of a half sister to Showcasing, and two nice foals. Again at 15K I think he represents a bit of value as he got a few high class progeny from his first few books despite them been very small books.

Group1 Winning Sprinter in Society Rock,interesting one that