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Black Sam Bellamy
09 May 10 10:33
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Date Joined: 05 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 311 | Blogger: Black Sam Bellamy's blog
I really dont think he gets the credit he deserves considering his own record as his record as a sire of sires. He's been nowhere near as heavily marketted or used as some of the Coolmore/Darley sires yet the figures stack up.
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Report Prima Donna May 9, 2010 7:14 PM BST
One thing to note about GD as a sire of sires,his best stallion sons are all from outstanding family's,could it be that they are so good because they are from such high class producing family's despite GD,his stallion sons from 'normal' mares have been a bit disappointing.
Report Black Sam Bellamy May 9, 2010 7:18 PM BST
Fair point, something I'd not considered.
Report potentialmillionaire May 9, 2010 8:33 PM BST
He's always been a bit tricky hasn't he. In a lot of cases he's actively downgraded his mares relative to their other offspring, and he's certainly been blessed with some good mates. Also ofcourse with his fertility issues he's never covered modern day book sizes.But then the great sire of sires, I.M.O he's not one mind, historically never did. But ofcourse, his stallion sons are to be applauded however he got them, so I agree with you both!
Report RipVanWinkle May 9, 2010 10:39 PM BST
PD most stallions come from very good family's so you cant really put down Green Desert there. Look at Sadler's Wells his best stallion son's come from very nice family's some may have come from better family's than others but that is only natural for a horse of Sadler's Wells class to improve mares and therefore improve there offspring when they go to stud. And i believe that Green Desert has helped his stallion sons at stud with what he gave to them and that is speed. Oasis Dreams progeny have excelled in a range of distances because his dam was bred to stay over a mile but being Green Desert ment that he didn't need much of a trip. Thats the way i would look at it.
Report Prima Donna May 9, 2010 10:45 PM BST
It is good that we all have different opinions Rip Van, but I have always been of the view that Green Desert is not a sire of sires. He gets lots of stallion sons but apart from the 'big 3 ' none have cut the mustard. All of the 3 are from very good producing families. That should tell you something.
Report RipVanWinkle May 9, 2010 10:55 PM BST
I agree with you that outside the top 3 that his other stallion sons have not really achieved much but what he has given to his best sons it has helped them very much at stud.
Report Prima Donna May 9, 2010 11:07 PM BST
Rip Van,it is possible that GD may have added speed in the case of Oasis Dream,(though his half sister by Zamindar was a Gns winner) but would you say Cape Cross was a 'speed sire'? I wouldn't, IMO he is fairly typical of his family, and his own best progeny are 10-12f types.

I am sure he will go down as a great sire of sires due to the Big 3, but I don't really think that opinion bears closer inspection.But his presence in a pedigree is an assest not off-putting and I would rather him there than Rainbow Quest!
Report RipVanWinkle May 9, 2010 11:16 PM BST
On paper Cape Cross looks like a very fast stallion but his progeny are all better over a mile or a mile like himself.

I new zenda would come into it somewhere. I guess your mare related to her isn't by Green Desert.
Report Prima Donna May 10, 2010 6:59 AM BST
Rip Van,No she is not by Green Desert she is by Zamindar owned by both Slick and our daughter.
Report Black Sam Bellamy May 10, 2010 7:30 PM BST
Perhaps it should be Big "4" sons of Green Desert as Volksraad is a 13 time champion sire in NZ. I am slightly biased here as I've got a mare in foal to him. He's had a ton of winners in Australia also.
Report humzini May 10, 2010 8:22 PM BST
His best colts and gs (the first 8 all successful stallions)

Cape Cross, Oasis Dream, Invincible Spirit, Desert Style, Shinko Forest, Desert Sun, Desert Prince, Kheleyf, Owington, Desert Lord, Sirocco Breeze, Gabr, Tamarisk, Diamond Green, Great Britain, Byron, Sheikh Albadou, Masaalek, Yamal, Stoic,


He's catching up with another son of Danzig as a sire of sires

Danehill

- Danehill Dancer, Dansili, Rock of Gibraltar, Danetime, Redoute's Choice, Flying Spur, Danzero, Exceed and Excell, Desert King, Tiger Hill, Commands, Oratorio, Spartacus, Clodovil, Mozart (To come - Dylan Thomas, Duke of Marmalade, Holy Roman Emperor, Cacique, Champs Elysees,)
Report potentialmillionaire May 10, 2010 8:29 PM BST
I don't think it's fair to completely ignore Desert Style either. Inconsistent like his father but he has had some pretty serious moments, but probably suffering slightly from never finding a consistent residence at which to ply his trade. Thinking more, I bet we all expect C.C. I.S.and O.D. to be top 10 stallions over a good period of time - not many current sires of sires are going to manage that are they?
Report Prima Donna May 10, 2010 9:38 PM BST
humzini     10 May 10 20:22 
His best colts and gs (the first 8 all successful stallions)

Cape Cross, Oasis Dream, Invincible Spirit, Desert Style, Shinko Forest, Desert Sun, Desert Prince, Kheleyf, Owington, Desert Lord, Sirocco Breeze, Gabr, Tamarisk, Diamond Green, Great Britain, Byron, Sheikh Albadou, Masaalek, Yamal, Stoic,


He's catching up with another son of Danzig as a sire of sires

Danehill

- Danehill Dancer, Dansili, Rock of Gibraltar, Danetime, Redoute's Choice, Flying Spur, Danzero, Exceed and Excell, Desert King, Tiger Hill, Commands, Oratorio, Spartacus, Clodovil, Mozart (To come - Dylan Thomas, Duke of Marmalade, Holy Roman Emperor, Cacique, Champs Elysees,)

He really will have to catch up very quickly if he going to get anywhere near Danehill as a sire of sire's.
Report RipVanWinkle May 10, 2010 9:57 PM BST
Danehill is looking like he will dominate everything for decades to come with the stallions that have already sired runners and the ones to come it couldn't really look any brighter for him.
Report Prima Donna May 11, 2010 7:26 AM BST
potentialmillionaire     10 May 10 20:29 
I don't think it's fair to completely ignore Desert Style either.
I agree with you,pity he is now in France.
Report Prima Donna May 15, 2010 10:37 PM BST
After today,perhaps Desert Style has a son that could be a worthy replacement.Paco Boy flying the flag.
Report potentialmillionaire May 17, 2010 7:25 PM BST
Paco Boy seems to have learned how to move a bit better in his old age which makes him more appealing, in my eyes anyway.
He's a very similar type to his sire and his pedigree just about warrants the term 'workmanlike' ?!
Report Prima Donna May 18, 2010 7:25 AM BST
I could imagine Paco Boy standing over here (Ireland)being by Desert Style out of a Sandhurst Prince mare I can't see him being that expensive,standing at about 7/8k,I reckon 10k would be too much,do other breeders think he will be commercial?Does he hold much appeal?
Report RipVanWinkle May 18, 2010 5:00 PM BST
He wouldn't hold much appeal commercially to me but if i was breeding to race which one or two of ours are then yes i prob would use him but not for the sales ring. For the sales ring i think Rip Van Winkle will hold plenty of appeal.
Report Prima Donna May 18, 2010 6:26 PM BST
Rip Van,Yes I think your namesake will be VERY commercial,I can almost see the hype,thats not to say he wont be on fire because like you say he will be.Paco Boy is one of those sound and tough runners that breeders seem a bit shy to use,I do understand why,I have a mare that Slick hates,(not very commercial)but I like her and have thought about Paco Boy I would race it myself,she does get winners but not good enough for Slick.........but she knows that mare will never be sold.
Report RipVanWinkle May 18, 2010 8:13 PM BST
He's kind of like that is going to make or brake your season by getting good tough sorts or being a disaster hopefully the first one as there are to many of the last one
Report RipVanWinkle May 18, 2010 8:14 PM BST
I ment by using him when he retires
Report potentialmillionaire May 18, 2010 9:52 PM BST
I remember seeing Desert Style at Corbally out of training and thought he was a tough looking wirey type, not particularly impressive. I also remember some really nice stock appearing at the sales from his early crops, very typey. I have a hankering that Paco Boy could do a similar job and would certainly give him some consideration.
I think he could stand over here, and as a popular racehorse I think he will carry some of that goodwill to the start of his next job. If he ends  up with you guys in Ire I think he'd make a 10 euro horse wouldn't he?
Report Prima Donna May 19, 2010 7:39 AM BST
I don't know about 10k,that seems a touch high imo.I agree with your other points,he is the sort who if he stays in England I can see him at a stud like Whitsbury or with David Redvers,if he had a more fashionable pedigree and if he keeps improving he could be a 15k sire,but I still think he will stand over here.
Report RipVanWinkle May 19, 2010 2:57 PM BST
I could see him at Ballylinch Stud myself because they need a stallion to catch the eye of the breeder again Whipper did at the start but hasn't really been great at stud, Lawman has alot to live up to his foals sold ok not very good though. And Intense Focus was not the greatest horse on the track even though he's a group 1 winner but being by Giants Causeway he will be supported. Soviet Star is also getting on in age so they must be hoping for a stallion to fill his place and i think something like Paco Boy could do that.
Report Prima Donna May 19, 2010 5:25 PM BST
Rip Van,Those are all very good points,and I agree with them,I will be looking at him if he does go there.
Report potentialmillionaire May 19, 2010 9:59 PM BST
Yes Ballylinch does seem to be quite likely as they have seemed to be able to outbid the other independents recently don't they. Sadly though, that is reflected in the advertised fees for their horses which always seem to be 25% over the odds to me. The English independents I'm sure would have a go for the horse as competition for a stallion prospect often seems to cause all of the studmen to forget the real economics of the game. The english National have swooped for similar prospects haven't they. £10 max over here - £8 more like.
Report RipVanWinkle May 19, 2010 10:16 PM BST
Well we covered a mare with Excellent Art and i'm awful happy with the resulting foal. Excellent Art and Lawman entered stud the same year and both for €25000 we did not cover that year but last year we did and we looked at both horses but thought that Excellent Art represented much better value and is bred much better than Lawman not everyone thought the same as me last year but i have a nice filly foal which will prob be kept as a potential broodmare. Lawman i think should be standing for €10000 this season and so should Excellent Art. They both entered stud to high but that is to be expected with Coolmore and Ballylinch
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