Sires and the going

tlp,

Afraid I can't agree with Rumoush, I think Richard Hills also on record saying faster the better.

My three for the going would be:

Seta
Pipette
Devoted to you

Devoted To You is a good place bet at 5s+ on here. Having had a run she should also be fitter than other runners we've seen from the stable.
I have large AP outlay on Special Duty so will look to lay some off, though still think she has quality and CC held up the form yesterday.

Interesting Class 2 2yo race at Newmarket. With softer ground I've reduced it to three, Numeral, Oracle and Temple Meads. I'll oppose the Godolphin horse being an Invincible Spirit. Clearly that leaves Hannon and O'Brien which is hardly inspiring but I'm tempted to play Temple Meads which has been backed

Boom :-)

Did you?

:D

Nice one

Never had a day as good as this mate

Excellent, great to hear. Flat season been tough going so far

.

see theology is out again today lads 1m4f  fast  ground
this should tell us a bit more .
i think it can win today  any thoughts.

The distance should certainly help tlp. Knight gave Prince Of Dreams a good write up in the Weekender and hos breeding suggest he'll also be suited. Exacta?

One of them if I back it then it won't win and if I don't it will [;)]
Don't like the National Hunt horses being in there, particularly Tzora who has a good record on decent ground

Well done tlp, nicely

cheers red .
had it in a nice treble as well with 2 hotpots .
havent seen the race yet will watch later .

hi guys contrary to connections belief that the fast ground
didnt suit him at salisbury.
my view is that CANSILI STAR  will love the fast ground at
lingfield today and cant see him being beaten.
another couple i quite like major pop in the 7.20 at hamilton
and quivvy bridge in the 6.00pm at downpatrick.
p.s expect ground to be on the fast side at hamilton tonight .
the sun has been out since early this morning .
any thoughts guys.

If they all won like that you'd be happy mate

Azmeel was my main bet today (see AP thread I'm not aftertiming), but I like Miss Daawe at Nottingham 5.15 and Danderek at Hamilton 7.50. Daawe and Fantastic Light both give offspring who like faster ground so the drier the better.

like danderek as well m8 .the reason it will be fast at hamilton is that they would not have watered as it looked like it was going to rain all week but it never did.
and now its too late to water .

Daft jockey got into a duel for the lead and stayed on for 2nd. Unlucky

unlucky m8
like you said did too much too soon.

Kaptain Kirkup another winner for Captain Rio on fastish ground. Had me fooled, thought it would be too fast.

hi guys i think the bet of the day is STRIKING SPIRIT in the 3.40 at  newbury i have been watching this horse closely since  he last won at york thinns have continually went against him . draw ground etc but today everything is perfect
and he has come down to a very winable mark .will be very
dissapointed if this one doesnt go in.

the lay of the day for me is plume in the 4.15 at newbury at
around about 6/4 i dont think it will handle the fast ground at newbury i know shewon on it at haydock but you always can get away with it once .this will be a lot tougher and being out of a law society mare makes me think  it might want cut.
any thoughts guys.

I'm certainly not going to put you off mate. It looks like he's in the right part of the draw for pace (thought here's not a lot of outright frontrunners). The only concern I have is that he has only won C3 races and when upped to class 2 he has failed, admittedly only favourite once. His last run was in a C2 but only 5 ran and though that equalled his highest TS rating can he repeat that time in a bigger field? However, he's clearly fancied and as you say goes best on fast ground. Good luck with him, hope he wins for you.

Hopefully you laid Plume tlp?

yes red i laid plume but i was still a wee bit dissapointed with striking spirits showing i thought he was better than that.everything was in his favour dont know what to make of him now.

Good in his class tlp. I'm starting to use this approach more in my betting with older handicappers. Speed, going, class and trainer are my guidelines now.

any thoughts on longchamp today red .
if they are calling the ground good you can bet youre bottom dollar that it will be at least good to firm.

ive had a very small bet on bluster in the sprint .
yhink it will like the ground.

i think its safe to say the ground is on the quick side at longchamp after benbauns performance.
although that will suit special duty ithink joanna will be equally suited to the fast ground.
the perfectly drawn joanna is my selection here.
any thoughts guys.

Sorry mate I was out, just seen the replay. I backed Joanna who held every chance but wasn't good enough and Rosanara who I think may well have won but for being hampered badly. May get a place yet but not great.

they reckon the winner will defo get thrown out

agree about rossanara she is screaming out for a trip and
was in season before the race as well .
prix de diane for this one.

the going looks like being on the fast side for the 2.000 guineas on saturday if that is the case the horses who will be most suited to these conditions are .
steinbeck

xtension

noll wallop .

the last named is particularly intereting as his form is on soft/heavy but i feel he won his race despite the going and not because .

i cant make my mind up about fencing master as to what ground suits him best

any thoughts guys.

Of those three I'd have though Steinbeck would be best suited on sire form though fitness has to be guessed at. Footsteps has a clear preference for faster ground I think.
I do think the way Canford Cliffs has run the horse prefers a little give, that was my theory on why it hung at Newbury last time anyway. I am his biggest fan but wouldn't be rushing to back him on Saturday on fast ground.

canford is screaming out for some cut red hannon has finally sussed that out as he said he wouldnt run it on fast ground .
they wont water much either as it wont suit the obrien horse
just think back to mastercraftsman when the ground was brick hard for the irish guineas and they didnt put a drop on and bolger was furious.

18.28.
of course i mean henrythenavigator not mastercraftsman. sorry about that.

have to give striking spirit another chance 3.40 muss.
hope the drop in trip helps but not positive it will.

as for the derby having already backed sna i am banking on johnny getting it wrong again and have went for midas touch to recoup.any thoughts guys.

When asked which horse he'd want to ride, Fallon said Midas Touch. He was impressed with the time and performance in the Derrinstown.

st leger for midas touch imo never handled track and screaming out for farther.

marchand dor looks nailed on now it has some cut in the ground.

shocker from the jock.

You're not wrong there, the jockey was looking round and to the side whilst the front runners opened up the lead

age of aquarius for me today in the gold cup will love the fast ground and the trip imo any thoughts guys.

i think murtagh may have picked the wrong one today .
MIDAS TOUCH  E/W for me to-day .
this stiffer  gallopind track will be right up his street imo .
any opinions on this.

Didn't see this tlp, sorry.

As long as there is firm in the going descripton i think SPECIAL DUTY is the one to be on today .i am sure we have not seen the best of her yet i also think it wont matter how the race is run as she has bags of toe and also stays well  . anyone like anything else.

nap of the day is high standing cant see what can stop him.
the likely fast pace will be right up his street the first 4 in the betting would probably prefer faster ground but i dont think it is too bad and at least he has acted on softish ground well before i
think the very slow times at newbury are partly to do with running into a headwind.any other fancies guys.

3.40 the curragh REMEMBER WHEN  had this one on my mind for this race the minute they passed the post at epsom this easier ground will be right up her street.

5.00  tipperary  IMPERSONATOR the more rain they get the better for this one my m8 used to look after  him at john dunlops yard he has to be held up and you usually just get a couple of good runs a season out of him he ran a blinder last time and i think today could be the day .good luck all.

nice 5/1 winner yesterday  ive backed LOOK BUSY at 9/1 in the 4.30 at ayr this has to be the toughest mare in training and with the rain
at ayr this has to be backed imo.

WD on the Irish win. Now the rain has arrived things, this thread may be more to the fore

hi red  IMPERSONATOR  should go in again in the 7.30 at ballinrobe was a very easy winner the other day and they are obviously striking when the iron is hot as he does go off the boil quickly.

Well done, good call

cheers m8.

missed that

wd tlp

hi phs youve not been on the thread for a wee while hope to hear more from you soon.

Yeah, that's because the RP took away the easy free route to looking at a Dam's progeny. You now have to go through the Sales link and look at each one individually. The subs payers can see a summary of the results. So I've not been looking at Maidens this year, hence no posts on here. My bets are only small, so it's not worth me paying for the RP, especially when the site doesn't work so well sometimes. Also, I'm trying to stop Racing taking over my life.

Thanks for thinking my opinion's worth something anyway. Ben's not been on much either.

i like the look of  LUTINE BELL  in the 5.40 at bath today .
will love the fast ground and i dont think the step back to a stiff 5f will hinder it too much.
was blinkered for the first time last run and hacked up there is the old wives tale that blinkers dont have the same effect 2nd time round . i actually think the opposite is true and horses improve the next run  with blinkers.
i think this one maybe ahead of the handicapper heres hoping.any views guys.

WD again tlp.

cheers m8

any thoughts on the king george tomoz lads ive just went through the pedigrees and the only horse who will go with any cut in the ground is workforce if there is soft in the going description this would be the one to be on however if the going is on the fast side its anyones race i know it was goodish ground at epsom but stoute is on record as saying he won in spite of the ground a statement i agree with .
i would have no hesitation laying him if it came up quick.

I wouldn't want to lay him tlp but nor would I back him odds on. Watch and enjoy for me. It'd be hard to say he didn't handle the ground at Epsom. Presumably the heat in the south means the going shouldn't be too bad, clerk apart. Harbinger seems more of a stayer than speed like Workforce, and the others seem unlikely to me

Hope you did tlp. WD.

the breeding never lies phs

im going to have a wee dabble on a short price double at perth this evening .

CINAMAN who is awinner without a penalty imo.  7.10 PERTH

SHOPFRONTSPECIALIST who after hacking up at perth bumped into impersonator next time. 9.10 perth.

i think ROSANARA will win the nassau stakes today now that the rain has hit the track . i was there win she won at longchamp and has not hit form yet this year i am very hope full today will be the day .
i have always considered midday a fast ground horse and i am willing to go against trainer and jockey who think otherwise.stacelita would have to be a danger but soumillon has a terrible record over hear.
any thoughts guys.

surely hibaayeb wont be able to handle this soft ground in germany
4.10 dusseldorf.by singspiel out of a lion cavern mare .

ive had a wee whisper tonight lads for WEETENTHERTY in the 8.55 at carlisle .
p.s. dont shoot the messenger.

''the lay preacher     24 Jul 10 17:22 
the breeding never lies phs''


LOL apart from Canford Cliffs needing some cut and another half a dozen losers on the same page!! You guys seem to ignore all the losers and bask in the odd winner. If it's making you loads, though, good luck to you.

duncan if you have something usefull to say about a horses pedigree
we are all ears .
p.s  richard hannon himself says canford cliffs is a better horse with cut in the ground.

i dont listen to trainers...best not to imo, they're good at animal husbandry..not so good with a formbook/at race reading.


I've said plenty in the past tbh. Good luck tlp.

i think TIPPERARY BOUTIQUE  could run a nice race in the 4.40 at york
was not knocked about last time out bordering on being stopped.
might have a couple of quid e/w on .out of a mtoto mare she should be running on strongly at the end whatever happens .



p.s duncan to be honest m8 i normally dont bother with what trainers say myself good luck with your punting.

i think cinaman is worth another chance in the 3.40 at newton abbot
the fast ground was his undoing last time imo.

sorry 2.40 newton abbot.

the bet of the day is  PETELLA in the 5.35 at ripon .
although i rate kelly harrison she has made one almighty arse of riding this horse on its last 2 runs and i reckon she should have won both of them hanagan takes over today and that should make all the difference.

i am going to follow CINAMAN  over the cliff in the 4.20 at newton abbott this is defo his last chance.

I always thought that sires and going for the NH scene was largely irrelevant...

For sure, one can talk about Fairy King's appearing better on soft on the flat etc - although the horse's action itself, surely must be the deciding factor  - not the name of its sire...

But NH? I'm more interested in DISTANCE...

They always used to tell me that 7f horses off the flat were good 2 milers on the jumps and middle distance flat horses were good 3-milers... so one would imagine a sire of such on the flat would get the resulting over jumps...

Double trigger was a dour stayer on the flat with a never-be-beaten attitude... His progeny are often similar - i.e. they are strong stayers, gallopers, not given to a turn of foot... AS IT HAPPENS, these characteristics are often useful in soft ground... but that is a by-product, not a pre-requisite...

Just as an example, there is a pretty good selection of information to be found on the Bloodstock pages of the racing porst online, and doesn't even - currently - require subscription

Double Trigger's progeny to date, see below

1988 TO DATE     WINS  RUNS  %  2ND  3RD  £ PRIZE

Flat              7    150   5   6    9     25,021 
All-weather       9     79   11  3    3     23,537 
Jumps            95   1000   10 90   84    502,757 
2yo               1     41    2  0    3      3,543 
Broodmare sires   0     13    2  3    0 
5-6f              0      6    0  0    0 
7-9f              1     57    2  1    4      3,543 
10-11f            1     44    2  1    2      4,095 
12-13f            3     50    6  2    1      10,356 
14f+             11     73   15  5    5      30,561 
Heavy            11    119    9 10   13      72,950 
Soft             20    247    8 23   19     165,505 
Gd-sft           14    234    6 15   21      55,431 
Good             33    332   10 31   26     138,040 
Gd-fm            24    196   12 16   13      95,851 



Statistics are for GB and Ireland unless otherwise stated

It's not great visually, but one CAN extract the impression that DT is ground resistant, but imparts real stamina... would be good to see some fast mares go to him to see what THAT bore...

Top Players' wins and earnings:

£98,389  Russian Trigger's  - Utt 34Sft, Fol 31GS,  Wcn 22Sft,    Mar 22GS,  Per 21Sft
£82,123  Double dizzy       - Wcn 26Sft, Tau 24Hy,  Exe 23GF
£80,814  Faltering Fullback - Lis 22Gd,  Kln 17Gd,  Lim 16Y/Sft,  Thu 16Hy,  Thu 16Sft
£54,104  Twelve Paces       - Per 24Gd,  Kel 23Sft, Crl 26Hy,     Crl 25Sft, Nab 17GF
£47,180  Earlsfield Raider  - Fon 19GS,  Wor 16Sft, Lei 16Hy,     Lei 16GS,  Fon 23GF
                              Tow 21Gd,  Plu 21Gd,  Wol 12St/Slw  San 17Gd

HORSE  DAM'S SIRE  WINS  PLACES  RUNS  £ PRIZE  RPR 
 
Russian Trigger Bustino 5 2 12 98,389 146
Double Dizzy Sexton Blake 3 16 46 82,123 138
Faltering Fullback Ardross 5 6 18 80,814 140
Twelve Paces Rymer 5 8 24 54,104 125
Earlsfield Raider Pennine Walk 8 10 35 44,625 122
Triggernometry Dubassoff 3 6 30 31,718 117
Trigger The Light Idiots Delight 4 5 21 28,429 136
Presumptuous Classic Secret 3 3 16 26,553 125
Double Mead Norwick 3 8 16 22,101 125
Double The Trouble Crash Course 4 7 29 21,381 123
Solway Sam Strong Gale 5 1 9 18,129 134
City Of Doral Gildoran 2 1 13 17,000 123
Radnor Lad Dara Monarch 3 4 23 14,704 124
Triggerman Buckskin 3 4 9 13,777 135
Gold Reef Gulch 2 4 15 13,512 116
Jades Double Buckley 2 5 30 13,416 106
Bugsy´s Boy Aragon 2 3 12 12,226 126
Callerlilly Callernish 2 3 18 10,240 116
Water Pistol Environment Friend 1 5 46 10,141 81
Charmaine Wood Be My Native 3 1 8 9,541 113
Ikorodu Road Roselier 1 3 6 9,045 125
Miss Doublet Sunley Builds 1 5 21 8,095 82
Angie´s Double Archway 3 0 17 8,026 89
Double Pride Be My Native 2 4 6 7,707 112
Aya Strong Gale 2 5 11 7,541 98
Trigger Guard Pennine Walk 2 2 15 7,535 107
Brickies Mate Oats 2 0 9 6,356 112
Penteli Carlingford Castle 1 3 10 6,231 86
Timetwogo King´s Ride 1 2 14 6,145 111
Swincombe Rock Sulaafah 1 2 5 6,004 119
Devon Native Be My Native 1 4 10 5,987 111
Double Law Legal Tender 0 3 14 5,677 109
Boomtown Kat Catrail 1 3 9 5,571 111
Malakai On Your Mark 2 0 3 4,965 114
Patrixbourne Pollerton 1 2 11 4,721 81
Double Magnum Rymer 1 2 11 4,684 104
Sparkling Zola Derring Rose 1 1 9 4,368 99
Sun Pageant Chief´s Crown 2 0 4 3,962 95
Double Shot Be Friendly 0 3 7 3,617 116
Scottish Munros Bustino 0 2 7 2,424 104
Pairtree Be My Native 1 0 2 1,904 95
All About Trigger Ardross 0 3 6 1,719 117
Major Comet Common Grounds 1 0 2 1,713 98
Double Gin Baron Blakeney 0 3 4 1,664 103
Unanswered Phantom Breeze 0 1 7 1,517 106
Double Attraction Phardante 0 2 12 1,427 97
Aim For The Stars Celtic Cone 0 1 7 1,121 106
Triggerlino Relkino 0 2 8 982 74
Double Turn Palm Track 0 1 2 955 91
Half Cocked Quiet Fling 0 3 5 899 103
Double Bank Scottish Reel 0 1 8 739 110
Wham Bang Idiots Delight 0 0 7 703 88
Fille Detente Be My Chief 0 1 12 656 85
Kinsford Cowboy Roselier 0 1 3 619 93
Legal Joy Carlingford Castle 0 1 7 478 79
Jayjay Valentine Magic Ring 0 1 4 399 91
Princess Yasmin Oats 0 1 3 375 95
Larry´s Choice Denel 0 0 7 338 80
Solway Flight Mtoto 0 1 4 325 77
Silver Palomino St Columbus 0 1 7 242 77
Redskin Ambush Indian Ridge 0 1 1 240 92
Double´s Daughter Electric 0 0 7 239 74
Living The Dream Kalaglow 0 0 7 239 86
Tuesday´s Gone Lancastrian 0 1 4 200 81
Know Your Place Ardross 0 0 6 136 95
Belmore Baron Baron Blakeney 0 0 1 0 89
Chantilly Passion Northern Fashion 0 0 5 0 87
Follow The Dream Kalaglow 0 0 3 0 79
Golden Celebration Good Thyne 0 0 4 0 84
Hello Noddy Town And Country 0 0 4 0 61
Hops´s Trouble Lighter 0 0 1 0 32
Killing Joke Vision 0 0 7 0 62
Kwami Gun Glint Of Gold 0 0 2 0 76
Mist Again Idiots Delight 0 0 10 0 72
My Devon-Girl Be My Native 0 0 3 0 82
Never Know King´s Ride 0 0 2 0 43
Play It Again Comedy Star 0 0 3 0 70
Quick Draw Oats 0 0 4 0 97
Simple Gifts High Estate 0 0 5 0 83
Sooky Kabour 0 0 2 0 79
Sweet Shooter High Top 0 0 10 0 81
Trigger Lea Saddlers´ Hall 0 0 6 0 78
Twin Bud Lord Bud 0 0 3 0 83
Whistle Dixie Le Moss 0 0 5 0 85
Withymaid Celtic Cone 0 0 2 0 51
Annabelle´s Boy Archway 0 0 9 0 72
Beat The Bandits Jupiter Island 0 0 1 0 35
Border Lad Contract Law 0 0 5 0 78
Brackenorah Pennine Walk 0 0 1 0 29
Catapult King Sunley Builds 0 0 1 0 
Chanfron Thowra 0 0 1 0 30
Diamond Dew Rymer 0 0 3 0 51
Double Belle Thowra 0 0 1 0 0
Double Diva Arctic Lord 0 0 4 0 58
Double Grace Tudor Flame 0 0 3 0 55
Double Money Billion 0 0 3 0 21
Double Tangle Nader 0 0 2 0 30
Double Wonder Quart De Vin 0 0 2 0 15
Fashion Shoot Northern Fashion 0 0 8 0 63
Flora Lou Crash Course 0 0 1 0 48
Gayczar Indian King 0 0 2 0 54
Gladys Gertrude Sagace 0 0 2 0 22
Golden Trigger Pollerton 0 0 17 0 98
Hinton Luciana Vital Season 0 0 2 0 
Hold The Trigger Bustino 0 0 2 0 80
Honest Oats 0 0 3 0 90
Just Olive Homing 0 0 3 0 
Kymlyn Almoojid 0 0 2 0 66
Lady Percy Dunbeath 0 0 1 0 0
Lady Riffraff Lashkari 0 0 1 0 69
Lagan Gunsmoke Lidhame 0 0 2 0 68
Lions In Law Environment Friend 0 0 1 0 88
Los Arcos Rakaposhi King 0 0 3 0 32
Madame Allsorts Chauve Souris 0 0 1 0 91
Manics Man Nearly A Hand 0 0 1 0 52
Nobbys Girl Petoski 0 0 5 0 35
Norman Norman Sagace 0 0 1 0 
On The Double Posen 0 0 1 0 
Our Ted Alzao 0 0 4 0 62
Paperboy In The Wings 0 0 3 0 56
Pitton Victor Old Vic 0 0 5 0 96
Prince Ickarus Bustino 0 0 3 0 91
Queenstown Lad Aragon 0 0 3 0 34
Quick Draw McGraw Cadoudal 0 0 2 0 59
Rose Amber Relkino 0 0 4 0 60
Sail On Silver Lighter 0 0 1 0 
Sales Flow Rakaposhi King 0 0 6 0 65
Seapin Aragon 0 0 2 0 0
Shoot The Guest Thatching 0 0 2 0 47
Shotgun Annie Old Vic 0 0 2 0 25
Skipping Suzy Crash Course 0 0 1 0 38
Solway Trigger Cut Above 0 0 1 0 0
Soxon Fire Lashkari 0 0 2 0 64
Temple Green Pollerton 0 0 1 0 
The Main Man Pennine Walk 0 0 1 0 73
Trigger Tease Vision 0 0 2 0 59
Two Mile Oak Rymer 0 0 2 0 0
Waifer´s Lad Baron Blakeney 0 0 2 0 46
Whispering Grass Blakeney 0 0 2 0 82

ever since the derby i have fancied MIDAS TOUCH for the st leger.
with the ground looking like its going to be good or maybe a wee touch slower i think e/w at 9/1 is a cracking bet sure to come on for his york run he has been screaming out for this trip all season.
any thoughts guys.

frankel may not handle this soft ground i think i will lay it.
just a wee bit worried his class might carry him through any thoughts guys .

ground was no worse than good according to times.

anyone going to the arc if so any fancys for the 2 days.

good ground  or good to  soft = FAME AND GLORY.

soft ground or worse =     BEHKABAD

Hoping for Behkabad tlp

the ground done you red by the time of the arc it was no worse than good .  it must have been about 70 degrees at one stage happly i managed to find misty for me and wooton bassett so it wasnt too bad a day.

Good for you mate. This weather is driving me mad, rain then drying. [smiley:crazy]

$$$ one of the biggest myths in racing ,sires have an influence on ground preference, off course they do ,nearly every group race in the passed 4 weeke's has been determined ,on sires who like soft ground ,
it begger's belief how little some people know.

correct bigmart.

massively overstated.

merry xmas everyone and a happy new year when it comes.

redal  ben 10 phs and others lets get this thread going this season lads .
fell away a bit last year .
lets be avin you with your comments.
good luck all this coming flat season.

.

Thanks ngu

TLP - only just seen your 29 Mar (due to ngu ttting)

hi phs how are you doin m8.
the season just starting to warm up now .
ive not had any notable bets yet.
what about yourself .
what do you think of frankels chances.

tlp, sorry just seen this. The forum has been very slow so I haven't checked so much.
The season is warming up and I hope the thread can contribute to a successful one

what happened to this brilliant thread.

lets get it going again .

the improving french bred LONG RUN will hack up in the king george imo.

5/4 is a fantastic price.

is this a breeding forum

This is the MOST POPULAR THREAD on the "Bloodstock & Breeding" Forum with 512 posts and 6,300 views.

Just seen this bumped, so thought I'd say Hello. TLP, sorry I missed your 18/04/11 post

Sorry Easygold
Should of said here

Na mate, it was just for all-weather .......... sires % on the sand ONLY...