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I've started a few threads bagging this lot, now it's official.......I must confess I had a really good thing going arbing on the Kiwi gallops till they shut me down 
no wonder liquidity on NZ, especiallyt trotting is non existent now
on the bright side I get to sleep in a lot more now.........
'Arbitraging' bets banned
The TAB has admitted for the first time they are banning what they believe to be professional punters from betting fixed odds with them.
But they are adamant that won't affect normal punters, even those who regularly win betting on fixed odds.
The Herald has learned TAB bookies were recently told to cull fixed odds punters who they suspected were using their service for professional or semi-professional arbitrage.
While few New Zealand punters understand that concept or have even heard of it, it is simply punters taking odds with the New Zealand TAB and then off-laying them at a lesser dividend on a betting exchange, like Betfair.
For example, the New Zealand TAB may have the Reds at $4 playing the Crusaders because of parochial local money but there may be punters on exchanges overseas willing to back them at $3.75.
Professional punters will take the $4 with the TAB for the Reds, then let another punter back the Reds at $3.75 and can't lose because even if the Reds do the second person covers their bet, and if the Reds win they pocket the difference in profit.
Arbitrage is common in bigger and more sophisticated betting markets than New Zealand and many professional punters have computer programmes, called robots, loaded to seek out just such anomalies.
These are the punters the TAB is looking to stop betting fixed odds with them, says the face of bookmaking Mark Stafford.
"Yes, we have been told to explain to some of these people that we will no longer take fixed odds bets from them but we are talking about a very small number," said Stafford.
The Herald understands through other sources there could be fewer than 20 punters affected.
"Basically, these are professional punters, often using robot programmes, and we are not going to let them use us for arbitrage, simple as that.
"It has been going on for a while and it is not fair to us or the regular punter who simply wants to back their opinion against ours."
While the idea of the national betting agency with the slogan "You knows the odds, now beat them" shutting some punters out will cop plenty of criticism, the practice of banning punters is commonplace with most overseas bookmaking firms.
There are countless punter horror stories of corporate bookmakers banning punters after just one or two successful bets, but it is rare for a major TAB, although most restrict the bet size of regular, large winning punters.
But Stafford says winning punters who the TAB do not suspect of using their odds for arbitrage will still be able to get on, although some of the bets are restricted in how much they are allowed to win.
"We have one gallops punter who basically wins every week with us but we think he is doing his own form and not laying off our odds overseas so he is allowed on," said Stafford.
"He is restricted to how much his bets are allowed to win, because we are, after all, a business, but he is fine with that.
"I know some people might paint this in a bad light but professional punters tend to understand this is standard practice around the world.
"But this isn't going to be a factor for anybody who isn't gambling right at that professional level."
Stafford says while one punter who was banned from fixed odds betting had his TAB account closed for all betting, that was re-opened.
"We won't be stopping anybody from betting on the tote with us, this will simply be for fixed odds and only if we are confident they are arbitraging."
Because New Zealand racing pools don't generally create a lot of liquidity on exchanges like Betfair, the main target for professionals would be major sports like soccer, rugby, cricket and Australian racing.
no wonder liquidity on NZ, especiallyt trotting is non existent now
on the bright side I get to sleep in a lot more now.........
'Arbitraging' bets banned
The TAB has admitted for the first time they are banning what they believe to be professional punters from betting fixed odds with them.
But they are adamant that won't affect normal punters, even those who regularly win betting on fixed odds.
The Herald has learned TAB bookies were recently told to cull fixed odds punters who they suspected were using their service for professional or semi-professional arbitrage.
While few New Zealand punters understand that concept or have even heard of it, it is simply punters taking odds with the New Zealand TAB and then off-laying them at a lesser dividend on a betting exchange, like Betfair.
For example, the New Zealand TAB may have the Reds at $4 playing the Crusaders because of parochial local money but there may be punters on exchanges overseas willing to back them at $3.75.
Professional punters will take the $4 with the TAB for the Reds, then let another punter back the Reds at $3.75 and can't lose because even if the Reds do the second person covers their bet, and if the Reds win they pocket the difference in profit.
Arbitrage is common in bigger and more sophisticated betting markets than New Zealand and many professional punters have computer programmes, called robots, loaded to seek out just such anomalies.
These are the punters the TAB is looking to stop betting fixed odds with them, says the face of bookmaking Mark Stafford.
"Yes, we have been told to explain to some of these people that we will no longer take fixed odds bets from them but we are talking about a very small number," said Stafford.
The Herald understands through other sources there could be fewer than 20 punters affected.
"Basically, these are professional punters, often using robot programmes, and we are not going to let them use us for arbitrage, simple as that.
"It has been going on for a while and it is not fair to us or the regular punter who simply wants to back their opinion against ours."
While the idea of the national betting agency with the slogan "You knows the odds, now beat them" shutting some punters out will cop plenty of criticism, the practice of banning punters is commonplace with most overseas bookmaking firms.
There are countless punter horror stories of corporate bookmakers banning punters after just one or two successful bets, but it is rare for a major TAB, although most restrict the bet size of regular, large winning punters.
But Stafford says winning punters who the TAB do not suspect of using their odds for arbitrage will still be able to get on, although some of the bets are restricted in how much they are allowed to win.
"We have one gallops punter who basically wins every week with us but we think he is doing his own form and not laying off our odds overseas so he is allowed on," said Stafford.
"He is restricted to how much his bets are allowed to win, because we are, after all, a business, but he is fine with that.
"I know some people might paint this in a bad light but professional punters tend to understand this is standard practice around the world.
"But this isn't going to be a factor for anybody who isn't gambling right at that professional level."
Stafford says while one punter who was banned from fixed odds betting had his TAB account closed for all betting, that was re-opened.
"We won't be stopping anybody from betting on the tote with us, this will simply be for fixed odds and only if we are confident they are arbitraging."
Because New Zealand racing pools don't generally create a lot of liquidity on exchanges like Betfair, the main target for professionals would be major sports like soccer, rugby, cricket and Australian racing.
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Replies: 58
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That's fair enough too. I was banned from Aldi the other day because I bought cheaper bread than Coles.
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it's a restraint of trade IMO.....how ya supposed to make a living with a very limited skill set
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now thats funny
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last race in Auckland $43.20 matched......to say Kiwi trot punters have failed to embrace Betfair is an understatement!
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The way the NZ TAB has referred to "professional punters" suggests they are a lower species than regular punters.
When you consider there are some TABs who encourage professional punters to bet with them with generous rebates, you have to think there are two classes of professional punters, good and bad.  |
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Why do these people hate arbitrage punters so much? People buy cans of coke from Woolies for 50c and sell them in their shops for $2.50. Woolies doesn't care.
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agree trotlover.....they don't like arbers because they don't do form or have an opinion = SAYS WHO???
because you arb you're going to be in front with bookies????? when you're arbing you don't want them to win too often because you will be barred for having a winning account they're cutting off their nose to spite their face I know I've posted this before but I used to put all kinds of bets on the NZ TAB and turn over quite a bit with them my current balance is $0 and they can get stuffed.....it's their loss you get stung by the bank in currency conversion fees and they take an age to transfer the $$$ to your bank any way dumb arse kiwi's |
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"many professional punters have computer programmes, called robots, loaded to seek out just such anomalies"
I think you'll find they're called BOTS Mick Gurkin and as far as I know there are no bots that will put fixed odds bets on with the NZ TAB |
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Yes but why do they refuse bets from arbitrage punters? Surley if their % is correct they will still make a profit. What an arbitrage punter subsequently bets on is none of their business?
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I agree, if they concentrated on getting their odds right in the first place then the arbs that appear should still work in their favour in the long run. But some of their so called arbs are in fact actually just blatantly bad odds setting on their behalf.
eg on the AFL this season they've offered odds on the total points. Bet365, centrebet, sportsbet etc might bring the line in from 185.5 to 165.5 if there's rain around, but NZ TAB don't move their line, they'll leave it at 185.5. I'd see the value and hit it. Sometimes I'd put over $5,000 on before they'd move the line. Most of the time they'd eventually bring the line in, but sometimes they wouldn't even bother at all. I'm not an arber, I'm definately not a professional punter and I sure as **** don't run any robots. Surely if they're so worried about so called arbers then they should put more effort into setting the odds than that? This has occurred in numerous other markets aswell, but I've noticed they've tightened up their AFL markets considerably in the last 2 weeks. |
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Just an excuse for them to ban winning punters, they don't care if they are arber's or not!..........................oh, and by the way they cant control the arbs by setting their odds better or more form work because they simply don't have any control over how the other 3000 bookies setting their odds. All betting outlets now think that the way to win is just ban every one than has a credit winning balance with them over a period of time. thus making the word BOOKMAKER a redundant word in the new age of gambling
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I concur log smoker.....it's all about banning winners
this is the sheer stupidity of it......I was arbing with them for nearly a year mainly on the kiwi gallops most of the horses I was arbing on would lose = they make money obviously they were more than happy to take my bets to a liability of up to $5K......everyone's happy, I'm making money and they're making money then disaster struck and I had 4-6 weeks where too many won I'll bet they had no idea I was arbing because it went on for so long......to them I became a "winner" = GAME OVER it's just moronic that they would have someone arbing and losing with them and ban them what business turns away profitable customers????? I'm embarrassed I was born in NZ thanks to these braindead pretenders |
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and often I wouldn't be arbing, I'd actually be backing something because they would be so slow reacting to something shortening everywhere else
bunch of amateur halfwits with NFI trying to ban anyone who is too sharp for them (which isn't hard!!) |
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being born in NZ, oh well wont hold that against you
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this pretty much sums up the situation with betting agencies in general.....winning is not "normal"......all they want is those having a flutter and a few beers and donating money to them.....
The TAB has admitted for the first time they are banning what they believe to be professional punters from betting fixed odds with them. But they are adamant that won't affect normal punters, even those who regularly win betting on fixed odds. |
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it was hardly by choice loggie although I can think of a lot worse places to be born
at least you can actually catch a plane to Australia, not some leaky boat thank god |
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Plus NZ have never lost an Ashes series.
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NZ, second best country in the world
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VK you're wrong, they can't possibly make a profit in the long run taking arb bets as it's their odds that are wrong, you even admit this. Your bets will eventually be a guaranteed profit and you know it. Sadly their solution is to ban arb bets instead of pricing markets more accurately.
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translation:
'if we can't back the horse we have layed with you to either cover or make a profit you'l be banned' Open another account - Problem solved |
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Charkitz I get what you are saying but I don't bet on sport only racing and pacing.....I would say in my case it's not a question of their odds being "right or wrong", the only thing that mattered was if I could lay something under the odds they were offering.....on the vast majority of NZ races they were the only agency offering fixed odds.....obviously you are going to make a profit if the horse wins or loses.....ideally enough lose that you don't get banned.....I was just unlucky that too many won all of a sudden.....if odds/probability are "right or wrong" is a gray area IMO.....yes their odds maybe be considered "wrong" if they are better than other agencies betting on the same event.....when betting on Australian races they are often slow to react to one that shortens elsewhere which becomes a "value bet" not an arb......I bet with a Scatter Gun, arb, trade, back or lay....all depends what opportunities arise.....that's the beauty of Betfair = you just never know what odds people are going to give or take
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You're right in saying they're slow when odds shorten at other bookies, it happens with sports too, sometimes the so called arb will sit there for hours. The part I can't understand is why they can't price their markets more diligently, surely they'd only need to employ 1 or 2 extra people to keep an eye on this.
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The once mighty Tabcorp are heading in the same direction......
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Perhaps any TAB or BOOKIE setting odds for fixed betting should declare how much they will stand a horse, dog, or any sporting event before the markets go up (as the on-course bookies have to).
So if I like one at Belmont, Flemington etc, I know that with TAB FIXED ODDS I can bet on my fancy to win say $8,000.00, at any odds (an even $8,000 or $1,000 at odds of $9) knowing that I will get set. If I fancy one at Wentworth Park I should be able to get set to win say $3,000.00, or $4,000.00 at Melton. Then alter the maximum for the Provincial and Country meets accordingly. Let the punters on and what they (TAB or BOOKIE) do after that is their business. I have heard of BOOKIES barring punters for not paying, but to bar them for being clever at what they do is boardering on criminal. Very much one way traffic with some of these TAB's (pretend bookies). It mentions that they aren't barring these punters from pari-mutual beeting, only fixed-odds. How brave of them knowing that almost 20% in win and place bets is kept to pay their business overheads and over payed CEO's. The TAB has always wanted to try their hand at Bookmaking and had they stood alongside and worked next to some of the TRUE BOOKIES of the past, they would have lasted only a handfull of meetings. Their attitude towards customers at times is nothing less than ferral. |
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What happens if u just put it on at the shop, not on your account?
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a lot of whinging going on here.
I guarantee you the betting landscape is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago. |
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10 years ago the golden age of Betfair kicked off where you could trade to your hearts content......deal with less bots.........newbies to fleece.......bet in play on anything with IP hiding software.......no need to arb.......hardly needed any money in any other accounts.......no worries about getting chopped back our banned by pretend bookies........what a fantastic ride it was till it all went pear shaped with the PC, an explosion in smarter bots, more "smarties" etc.......it's much harder and a tedious chore trying to make money here now.......I'd turn the clock back 10 years in a heart beat
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I agree with those sentiments. Also Tab pools were much bigger, especially for trifectas and quinellas.
The biggest blow for me, was Paddy Power's buyout of Mark Read's IAS. |
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for serious betting that is.... maybe not for trading
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Was betting fixed and pari-mutuel with them. Mainly fixed. They closed the account. Don't want pari-mutuel
business? Some smart operators in NZ. |
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Seems the NZ TAB's restriction/rejection of bets doesn't just apply to online accounts anymore. I've been getting on for large amounts at TAB outlets this year up until recently. Now all my bets automatically get referred to a trader and either get severely restricted or rejected altogether. Only a matter of time before Oz TAB follows suit and starts restricting and rejecting bets at TAB outlets too...
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and how do they know they are 'your' bets?
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and how do they know they are 'your' bets?
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I'm guessing the fact that I place large bets on the same markets week in week out is a bit of a giveaway, especially on a sport that isn't very popular here.
Don't think they know who is placing the bets as such, but it wouldn't be that difficult for them to identify which outlets are taking the bets and restrict bets at those outlets only. The way things are headed within two years nobody will be able to place a bet at TAB without either having to produce id or using a TAB card that identifies who's placing the bet. Winners won't be able to place a bet with anyone period. Not for a worthwhile amount anyway. When Betfair introduced pc I like many others thought they were shooting themselves in the foot long term. But a few years down the track winners will only be able to punt at betfair, so it'll be either except 20,40,60 whatever % pc or give it up. Even pinny will limit punters eventually, in the last month they've made changes to rollover rules and withdrawal fees etc to make life difficult for arbers etc, but soon enough they'll restrict the accounts of winners too. |
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And the silly thing is I don't even make money on the punt, but a few bets here and there sure as hell makes sport a bit more exciting to watch. And betting in small amounts doesn't cut it for me, I need to feel the win the loss.
In fact I'd hate to know how much money I've lost to the bookies over the years, would be even more if I wasn't always making sure I get the best price. It just so happens I've been on an amazing run at NZ TAB recently and there response is to not let me on. |
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So much for NZ TAB's motto of 'we set the odds, you beat them'. Lol
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yeah a bit pessimistic mate.
TABS have total retail exclusivity, they aren't going to go to exorbitant lengths to inhibit the tiny amount of punters who might make some $s for the many who lose - the swings are small and their roundabouts are massive They already have input exposure limits on all fixed odds betting so the punter who has a market edge is never going to take them for that much anyway |
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Blooodey oath I'm pessimistic, it **** me! It may not be happening in Oz yet but I'm telling ya it's happening at New Zealand outlets now and it will eventually happen at Oz TAB outlets too. It's called greed
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Agree with Gatespeed
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