SEW Eurodrive Victoria Cup 2013

Would have to be a Big turn around.
Im still Convinced he will be scratched.
Hall and Lance have declared war on each other off the track.
Good to see.
Im now laying Both for the place.

Go Sushi Sushi and Abetorpunt.

betfair market up for VICTORIA CUP race7

Did Gary Hall Jnr start the battle?  "Hall declares war on Smoken Up"

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17688

Probably not.

$1.70 about TMQ is laughable but there are hundreds of cashed up sandgropers who will back him at literally any price, whatever is going and the fixed odds players are well aware of that by now.  They're used to him winning every start, are convinced he's the best horse in the country and they're looking forward to watching him show the rest of us just that.  And they might well be right, but it's not just about money for them.  If $1.30 was the only price going then they would take $1.30.

Unfortunately as Lloydy said having the race at 5:55 WA time will reduce the number of WA fans betting on the race, which is a shame.

What are the experts thoughts on ELEGANT IMAGE? Thought the $8 looked a good price...

Should be double figure odds DT. Anything single figures is genuine unders.

Hopefully when we do hear from the experts they will concur

IDDI will lead with either Don King or Crescent Glory on his back.  Vulcan / Zion / Earl will then take up the running line positions.

Ideally EI needs a fast lead time or first quarter and there hasn't been one in an open class 2240m trot at Melton for a while now.  He'd then need a cart 3w from one of the above three and would then go very close, but that combination seems very unikely.

Most likely results to me are IDDI leading throughout, or Vulcan enjoying a half decent sit and running him down.  Others seem to agree which explains why they're the only 2 touched so far in fixed betting.

Good chance Vulcan will get to the pegs for mine khan

Cheers Khan / AD - will see what odds it comes up on here.

Regarding Abettorpunts race, OUR MALABAR a likely improver, rejoining Lance after a dissapointing stint with Harry Martin??

Drawn 1, ran 2nd in this race last year could be good place value perhaps..

$1.65 TMQ!!!!!!  How is that possible?

Supports my theory that West Aussies long to back him more than zombies like munching brains.

Leaders have won the last 2 races and the fence is clearly advantaged as usual tonight.  It looks like TMQ HAS to come out blazing to take the lead, and will do so, and on that basis evens or less is fair.  And as a bonus this will finally get rid of the "he cant be used early" and "hometown hero" myths.

I think he can definitely do it, but still can't think of taking evens.  The hometown hero theory is obviously rubbish, he's put in some amazing runs outside of WA.

Think the "cant be used early" theory is more debatable.  Sure he deathseated just fine in fast time last week but this will be a very different story.  They'll be flying.

Can't wait.

P.S.  What odds can I get this get dumped for Toowoomba????

On face value no excuses for quinnie I wouldnt have thought, I didn't get heavily involved in the race backed mah sish a place at the fixed  $6 on 365 after missing the 7 bucks on here and very small a win and had something on quinnie and something very small at the massive odds on franco jamar so won something small on the race. Well done to anyone who backed carribean blaster.

of course you won Lets, long live the undisputed KING OF THE AFTERTIMERS!

Quinn didn't really do much early. He got across easily, The Gold Ace didn't put much heat on before restraining quickly, then he handed straight over to Terrorway. Sat behind frantic speed thereafter and got out at the perfect time.

That was not just about working out of the gate, that was more about the fact that he is only a superstar around GP. He fails basically ever time he races in Victoria. You might say he ran third, but there were at least six better runs in the race, it could not have worked out better for him.

Winner is now a complete star, was huge last week and simply too good tonight. Resume is now one of the best currently in racing.

Smoken Up was very good at first watch for mine, expected him to drop out before he did.

Poor Bitobliss had another torrid run right from the start, he may be completely gassed now and might need a short break

Lead time was about 24 lengths quicker than DECORATED JASPER's race.

It was a Vic Cup DT, of course they are going to run time all the way, they are the best around.

You can't tell me he worked over hard early, had as good a run as any in the race. If he was the best horse he simply wins

I think you blokes may have forgotten to congratulate the
2 blokes that tipped the winner.

I congratulated Lloydy on the other Chant

Whoever the other was well done!

Normally everytime I see carribean blaster it's weak I know its record is good but I've just happened to see most of the races its been beaten in and not really many of its wins.

Usually when its got beaten in the races that I've seen, its looked disappointing if it has to get into a fight. Bitobliss was far too strong for it in the kilmore cup after carribean blaster waltzed to the front. It went good tonight no doubt but also had the race run to suit sitting off the speed while everything went to war up up front, Lance produced his usual suicidal drive as well, you werent beating on b and c graders tonight lance. Whoever said it earlier was spot on, that horse doesn't deserve to be  butchered like that at this stage of its career.

MACH ALERT was supposedly almost in the cup field so it must be a decedent horse, I would be surprised if a decent galloper was 24 meters slower than BLACK CAVIAR over 640 meters.

I am glad someone mentioned that Bitobliss sat outside Carribean Blaster and beat it at Kilmore. Hopefully he can be freshened up and produce his best in the Inter

crazy what jnr did tonight I was hoping for a backline draw for that very reason, there wouldn't be a horse anywhere in the country with a better 600m sprint if held up for that one run. Oh and VK dont know how many times I have to prove it I dont lie as I have zero need to.

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Mah Sish  (1) @ 6.00
AUD Place     15/12/2012 17:57:41

Was an awesome race, and won by a sensational horse.

I think the lead time of 41.9 stuffed everyone involved.  It's equivalent to a 1:45 mile rate.

When Smoken Up ran the track record last year he ran 43.5.

yeah he's obviously over the top or something bothering him again AD as he's not the same horse currently. I would liked to have seen quinnie have the same type of run as carribean blaster, think you might have seen the real horse then but still he had every possible chance tonight. Confirmed the opinion of my best mate who now lives in NZ nad has been for last 4-5 years now who told me a year and half ago to follow a horse called mah sish as he thought he was a top liner in the making.

yeah lead time definitely wouldn't have helped, everything in the finish except for quinnie bailed out of the early charge.

your spot on dark target, the lead time was unbelievable. ITMQ's run was sensational given it had next to no chance after the first 600m.

another shocker of a drive by G Hall.

Quinn was only in front for 400m, was nicely covered up for the last part of that lead time

Now 1 out of 8 in Vic and still excuses. I hate sounding like I am knocking him but had every possible and was not good enough

Hmmmm not sure, TERRORWAY got to the fence about 40 seconds into the race....

Either way, ITMQ layers happy they got the cash, ITMQ backers will be happy with his Interdominion odds now

34 seconds DT

I'll concede it is closer to 500m, but don't tell me he worked hard. Most in the race worked harder than he

Still AD, I think Khan has a valid point, quinnie was the only one involved in the early battle who was still there at the finish everything else dropped out, that can't be a coincidence.

first 600 at 26.6 pace - ouch (nice work G Hall)

where was C Blaster? 2nd last on the pegs 40m away.... says something?

LE, if you watch the replay, there were 3 others in that lead time. Two of them got carted back to last by Washakie (Gold Ace and Bitobliss). So the only one other who was involved was Terrorway, who then got hammered when the heat kept going adn Quinn was getting a perfect trail. So really, there is no benchmark amongst those who were also involved, he had by far the best run of the lot of them

yes very well done Lloydy, hope you got plenty and whoever else tipped the winner

AD, do as I have and put Lets on the BLOCKED list, you will get nowhere wasting your time arguing with the biggest aftertimer/expert on all codes all states the forum has seen.
What do they say about arguing with idiots?, not worth the grief.

Like I said TMQ one of the best sit sprinters I have ever seen, lay all day at odds on, a champion he is not

Did Adam Hamilton really say he was the best horse in Australasia?

I wouldn't even know where the block user thing is.

I have watched the replay 5 times now, I can't believe there are still excuses. No way on this planet could he have done what Bitobliss did in The Legends.

Again, I hate sounding like I am knocking him because he is certainly one of the best in the last half a dozen years. I respect that completely. But 1 out of 8 in the 'big smoke' tells the story very clearly. There can't be an excuse every time

just out of interest VK who is the best horse in Australasia?

Surely everyone knows that after tonight!  I Didnt Do It.

i cant type after tonight. they had to pay me b telophone banking account
Got the lot.
When im recovvereed ill tune in
Hope u all won

Just out of curiosity I had a look at the lead times for the Vic Cup compared to the consolation / Casey Classic since its been at Melton

2011 - 13.8L faster
2010 - 6L faster
2009 - 7.8L faster

2012 - 25.8L faster

Make of that what you will. But whether its horse racing, harness racing or camel racing, any horse up front with that sort of pace has got none.

i doubt if they will EVER run a lead time like that again 41.9
  cant recall  any better ... would been interesting if junior drove him cold
to see what would have happened ... CARRIBEAN BLASTER  outstanding to win.

Yes it was quick but I am sick of excuses for this horse. Every time he comes here he is supposed to be bigger and better and gets beat every time. 7 out of 8 now. The excuses are finished now, he doesn't deserve them anymore, had more than enough chances.

A champion he is not

maybe he could be  described  as champ of the west with a bankroll of over $3.3 million dollars

You can't be a champion when you have his strike rate travelling Elsu, simple as that.

He is pretty much unbeatable at GP

i thought terrorway was a champ,bitobliss was a champ,washakie champ,the gold ace,sushi sushi champs.. he beat those ordinary conveyances home..

record not good here did yu have anything on winner $35+
talked myself out of it barrier 12 over short distance
turned out to be best barrier....

u can describe him any way u want Elsu.

My description was he is pi$$weak.  - Maybe that's the magic water bottle element cuz he clearly has both speed and strength in WA.

I never said he wasnt a good horse. He is. He's a really nice horse. Driven quietly he can win any big race he contests but he needs to be driven like he is a 20/1 shot...I reckon if he handed up last night and been 3 back the pegs, he wins.

best horse in Australasia is SMOLDA

it's hard to knock a horse who's won two Inters (albeit one by default) and $3.3mil
but he's so one dimensional.....what a dimension it is!, sensational speed when covered up

he just doesn't compare to true champions like Blackie, Christian Cullen, Village Kid, Chokin, Elsu, Poppy and Roydon Glen

Yep barrier made it hard for me to back it as well (CB that is)

well said powerfan
driven more quitely MAY have won i see couple of betting shops have quinnie miles unders at 3.2/3.40 for inter which is very very short for mine

g hall jnr "Simply not as good when he has to work early, so I won't do that again"

ithink mainly the RIDICULOUSLY low price he got into around $1.80 with bookies and $1.85 on bf.. most were happy to lay him athat quote even $1.90yu could have got plenty out of him ..... my ratings had him a $2.25 ch
so i couldnt back him at those odds took a few multiples

anyhow bigger things on my mine look at few videos for
  WEDDERBURN CUP $12K this afternoon

yes, too nice a day to be sitting here dribbling sh!t
Liquidity on the NZ trots is a joke, $138 matched on the last race, you can get overs the faves for a few bucks, thats it!
time for working on the tan and a swim

while I'm at it I'll be thanking those who let me lay ITMQ @ 1.88 to save my arse from a horror night

$29.23 matched race 7 Wanganui ffs

actually this has been good thread with good debates

VK I suppose my Golden nugget tips potting that overated cat and favourite chancellor cullen and saying that I was backing I'm Victorious and saving  on bondy's horse Your good fortune was after timing as well, plus my tips the following day at Ascot following that up with beach express and full steam ahead from three tips on three races at ascot  were aftertiming as well.

I must consisstently be the luckiest and most accurate guesser in history

No idea what made you such a pathetic grouchy ancient oldfart but you need to have a serious look at yourself in the mirror and then go have a good lie down because if I am an idiot and I'll guarantee you I'm hell of a lot more intelligent than your good self, then you must be a complete simpleton.

consistently, damn typo's.

well well done to the ITMQ layers - what else can i say

and well done to lloydy and leftrightout speccing caribbean

even tho it sounds like lloydy more than specced it

LE chancellor Cullen is a Lear jet...

Chancellor Cullen beat Carribean Blaster quite easily when they met about 2 months ago

I did say on the other post that ITMQ was a one trick pony and was initially disappointed, but it was still a good run.  You just cannot go out that hard take a sit and then out sprint horses who have done nothing, not at that level.  But the fact is that he hasn't won the Vic Cup and I think G Hall Jnr went with the more percentage play to use the gate rather then wait and see what happens early and make his move mid race or at the 800.  Unfortunately the percentage play wasn't the go.  And by percentage play I mean take the initiative.  I know most of you think it wasn't. 

I agree with VK in a sense about Smolda.  Maybe not yet but soon he could be the best.  Not sure what he beat in a race on NZ cup day I think, but he came from last and it was just so arrogant.  Star!

Well done Lloydy, love his passion for the trots.

Smolda didn't beat a lot Cup day but smashed the clock

the way he won the Jewels in 1:52:1 at Cambridge of all places stamped him a freak if hadn't proven that already
that win was just mind blowing

has more potential than any pacer in the southern hemisphere IMHO

Yes not sure what happened to him the start before the Jewels!!  A mystery cold or something????  But yes a gun!

that 1:52:1 equaled Kiwi Ingenuity's NZ record but she did it as a mare on the big open spaces of Ashburton
Smolda was a 3yo and Cambridge is a small track by kiwi standards (1000m)

they wanted a bigger price for the Jewels

Well just proves my point about travel doesn't it then AD as chancellor cullen wasnt worth a pinch of shiiit in Perth, it fell over the line after getting a birthday in front in the lead up event and then got the breeze with ease int he Nugget everything panned out for him in the run as they walked up front and he then gave up like a goat when the pressure went on. I have no doubt its bertter than that but showed nothing in Perth.

Yes, and champions can do it anywhere, anyhow. Travel is never an excuse for a genuine champion.

i have to chuckle the way these west aussies stick up for TMQ
what are those two letters after his name........NZ
bit like me, bred in the shaky isles and a superstar in Oz
it's the breeding and what you get fed early doors IMO

I'm not sure the Kiwi's or us Aussies want to claim you VK

too late anyway, I was claimed by an English woman
once you've had a taste of kiwi, shut the gate

Smolda breed in Vic Aus VK.

Aussie Driver, I rate you as a good judge and one of the more sensible people on here but your love of Bitobliss and hatred of Im Themightyquinn is clearly clouding your judgement.
Before Friday night, Quinny had only won 2 ouf 12 starts when he had been seriously fired out of the gate. The horse has never been able to do it and his defeats are easy to remember (Chariots, Golden Nugget, Miracle Mile, etc.) He hasn't been used off the gate for 13 months and connections were hoping that he had developed that string to his bow, which he clearly hasn't.
Saying that, I'm certain the unbelievable lead time had an awful lot to do with it. Your argument that there is no line to draw between the beaten horses involved in the lead time because Bitobliss and tHe Gold Ace were held up is laughable. Bitobliss got to the back of Melpark Major at the 200 and was beaten 10 lengths by that 100/1 chance. The Gold Ace, ran on briefly before walking across the line in a similar fashion to Quinny.
If Quinny had Carribean Blaster's run he would have won by about 2 lengths going away. He is definitely one dimensional but does that mean he is not a champion. Would you pot Makybe Diva or Super Impose if they were ridden for the lead and failed. Would you put Smoken Up if he was driven sit sprint and failed?
Gary Hall Jnr, to his credit, has admitted to his mistake and said he'll never do it again.
This horse will be beaten as a short priced favourite in the future because of his racing style, but he is the best sit sprinter EVER and I believe a champion.
PS. I'm a huge Bitobliss fan and think he could be the next star if everything goes right with him.

Sinbad Bay, thanks for your comments, but I could not disagree more.

Bitobliss has been stood down by vets, so if you are taking anything out of that, well I am seriously hoping you are a better judge than that. Clearly he was not right the last two weeks and the vets have stood him down so there is obviously a problem, horses are not stood down for no reason. His win in The Legends was clearly the best win of the season so far and no other horse in racing could have done that. I would be astounded if you did not agree with that. He sat outside Carribean Blaster in a Kilmore Cup after working around the field and beat him hands down. Yes I love the horse, but I don't think the view is tainted. They are performances that have hi right at the top of the tree. He clearly has problems and that is a shame.

The definition of a champion is really a personal one, as we know. But Quinn is no champion because he simply does not win out of turn against the best horses. That is now definitive, we have 3 years worth of data to support it. Whether that be because he can't travel, or whether he needs luck, is largely irrelevant in the debate. Champions win against the odds, Quinn simply never wins against the odds against the absolute best. And don't bring up the Inter earlier this year, that was not against the best. When Smoken Up galloped early it became a glorified Perth FFA.


You may say it is hatred, I can assure it is not. I have risen from the chair at times seeing his burst of speed and loved it. But when I hear an excuse every time he is beaten it is simply inaccurate. A champion wins that race every time with the run he has Saturday night. Elsu would have. Blacks A Fake would have. Quinn did not.

I guess it comes back to how you define a champion, but I for one need to see them do it regularly. He does not against the best. And the excuses have well and truly worn thin

I'm not looking to take anything out of Bitobliss with the lead time, but you were saying the excuses for it and Gold Ace were being carted back to last and that had very little to do with their sub-par performances.
I think the term champion is used far too loosely and agree that it comes down to personal definition. I just think that Quinn consistently does what no other horse can possibly do, cover horses from seemingly impossible positions. It is unfortunate that he has never had the opportunity to do that on the Eastern seaboard against the best and until he does I respect that people won't rate him.
Bitobliss' win in the Legends was great but hardly midblowing stuff, ran the lead time and first quarter in a time slower than the C1 on the same night but then ran a very impressive last 1200. He didn't do anything that night that I didn't think he could. For mine, his Kilmore Cup win was a bigger statement.
I hope Quinny draws poorly along with the other main chances in the Inter, he can then hopefully settle a few arguments either way.

gunyah, I'm gutted

this race has had more postmortems than CSI Las Vegas, Miami and New York combined

backers of TMQ learn the lesson, layers rejoice!

but Sinbad TMQ the best sit sprinter ever? that made me choke on my Coffee, I'll bite on that one
ever in W.A., Australia? Australasia? the World? the whole universe? parallel universes?
ever includes Roman and Greek Chariot racing? what about Ben Hur?

I'll remember that statement when Terror To Love gives him windburn as he flies past him

ffs, I never noticed

Smolda
                   
2008 4 B g Courage Under Fire - Under The MattressBrand:
Origin:Australia
First Reg:New Zealand

I was a layer, declared before the race that he was massive unders when connections advised he was going forward at the start.
And should clarify, best sit sprinter in Australasia ever, happy to stand by that. Big Terror To love fan but would be happy to take $1.50 about Quinn if they went head to head over 400

not that anyone cares but I'll throw my hat in the ring

a champion has an undeniable will to win and finds away against the odds
GOLDEN REIGN had it, his win in the 95 Inter was incredible, look who he beat!
he could be beaten 5 metres before the line and 5 metres after but he'd stick his head out right on the wire

the word Champion is bandied around too quickly in these days where you get trophies just for showing up

Champions are few and far between, to put Quinny on the list is an insult to the greats of the sport who preceded him

with all due respect Sinbad If you were 150 years old and followed Trotting your whole life I might take that seriously

Can't argue with your definition of a champion, it is a very objective judgement.
Out of interest, would you rate Our Sir Vancelot a champion?

Pure Steel was a champion, Sinbad Bay was for his immense courage, Elsu was, and so was Blackie, if quinny can win another Pacing Cup, Fremantle Cup and interdominion this year he probably deserves to be ranked right up there as well amongst the best I've seen. Have to agree with Sinbad on several points he's one of if not the best sit and sprint horses I've ever seen and yes both horses being on their game I would be happy to back quinnie to outsprint terror to love every time. Yes sinbad any horse that can win three traditional inters series in succession is a champion in my book so Our Sir Vancelot's right up there for mine.

funny you should mention OSV Sinbad, won three inters yes but don't rate him a champ at all

it's refreshing to have an disagreement here with no abuse

Merry Xmas and happy punting

BITOBLISS was found to be lame in the off forleg so was pembrook benny
stood down to receipt of VET CERTIFACATE

Mark paid $55,000 at the sales here.
I know the breeder VK.

Guyanh got the Sling as well. he forgot to mention that.

Ill put my Bit in.
IMQ Great Horse, Peoples horse, WA Sensation. Champion No. But Most Exciting Yes. I still love watching him Run. I also like watching Has the Answers in Perth. I really wish they had of travelled with that horse. At 1 stage he was better than Quinny.

Blacks a Fake Best i have seen. (I was to young for Poppy)Plus i made a fortune out of him. If you ever get a Chance watch his Hunter Cup win. From last off 30mt. His only race he couldnt win was Miracle Mile

Our Sir Vancealot. I rate like Whasaki and Thorate. Great horses loved the Inters and always well driven. Champions NO but loved to of owned them. Ill also throw Master Musician into this Catogory. Sorry VK my NZ form is Not the best.

Sinbad Bay, Bonavista Bay, Galarion, Chandon all could of been anything. Greed lost Bonavista Bays chance of being a Superstar.
We never got to see the Best of Riverlea Jack but many people will tell you how freakish he was. Madest Horse ever close 2nd Restrepo who might be anything if can settle down

Nzs Iraqlis, Christian Cullan, Elsu and New Kid on the block Terror to Love.

Golden Reign. Knew how to win Champion no. He didnt pull Crowds. Sensational but not a Champ.

Sokyola, Smoken Up. Great horses. Lance has done a great Job with them Credit were it due. And got to love his Driving. I rate them like Level Advise but a bit better.

Jack Morris was a Beauty to watch.

Bitorbliss. Still has a long way to come. When he lost Swan Hill Cup it turned me off him a bit. I still cant believe he ran on Sat. Am i the only one that seen how terrible he went at Cranbourne?

Ill be honest at the moment there is no Champions going around but a good stock of FFA all over Aus and NZ.
Id love to see a sound Robin Hood going around now. Not saying he was a Champion but very nice horse

My Champion Ronald George. but not in a standstart this year.

Im sure i have missed a few, im still struggling to see from Sat night.

Lloydy

For Lloydy!!

http://media.harness.org.au/vic/MVM15120701.wmv

And Khan,
Thank you for that. i was on and a Good friend said he will never bet again if Robin Hood wins. Think he was 20s that night
His 3rd in Miracle Mile was awesome.

Best Trotter i have seen True Roman and close up Glenfild Girl

Lloydy on this day GOLDEN REIGN was a CHAMPION, I rate this the best Inter final ever assembled in my life time

true story I was flying back to Australia two days after the final and put every cent I had on him bar the $10 Tax needed to leave the country

the massive crowd at Addington was going ballistic as they turned for home and I was screaming at the top of my lungs
"GO YOU ****G AUSSIE!!!", to get up and win that race was one of the bravest things I've ever seen from a horse
I still have the shirt and cap I bought as I left the track


18th March 1995 Race 8 Friday Flash Inter-Dominion Pacing Championship Grand Final (Gr1)
                                    , $400,000, M1 & FASTER FFA MOBILE PACE, 2600m Weather: Golden Reign 10fr 250,000.002/33-11.0C A AlfordN R Alexander213
Chokin 13fr 80,000.001/13-11.0A G Herlihy MNZMR C & B Purdon311
Desperate Comment 11fr 40,000.007/73-11.2P N JonesC T Dalgety414
Koau King 14fr 20,000.0012/123-11.4J C HayF R Shrives58
Nippon Home 8fr 10,000.009/9M PurdonR C & B Purdon61
Weona Warrior 1fr 0.0010/10B P HancockB P Hancock74
Master Musician 4fr 0.004/4R J DunnR J Dunn89
Bee Bee Cee 9fr 0.005/5J F CurtinC J Calvert96
Lento 6fr 0.0011/11C J BarronA R McDonald107
Blossom Lady 7fr 0.006/6A M ButtD G Jones MNZMDisq2Young Mister Charles2fr0.008/8D W WilsonD W WilsonDisq12
Victor Supreme 12fr 0.003/2G P WolfendenP T Wolfenden MBE
         
          SCR3Ginger Man3       SCR5Christopher Vance5
     
Note:Young Mister Charles disqualified from 3rd; Victor Supreme disqualified from 2nd

Divs:Divs $4.90. $2.10. $2.05. $4.95. Quinella $13.40. Trifecta $438.30. TAB Double[races-8]:(2,10) $5.15. TAB Conc.:(2,12) $1.45.Margins:1/2 neck, 1 1/4 lengths, 3/4 length

Times:Mile Rate: 1-58.1  Last 800m: 58.0  Last 400m: 28.9

now that I'm surfing on a wave of nostalgia, I was blessed with horses that were racing when growing up in NZ....Cardigan Bay was before my time but they taught us about him at school and he was a household name, then along came Noodlum, Young Quinn
Lord Module, Hands Down, Bonnies Chance, Armalight, Placid Victor, Comedy Lad, Camelot, Nardinski, Loverage, Trident, Roydon Glen etc....and trotters like Basil Dean, Sir Castleton and Tussle

and then after I moved to the west island the kiwi superstars kept rolling in like Master Musician, Blossom Lady, Chokin, Christopher Vance, Desperate Comment, Holmes DG, Courage Under Fire, Christian Cullen, Elsu, the best 3yo I've ever seen Auckland Reactor.....I could go on all night!

VK ....... what would the Courage under Fire vs Aickland Reactor market have looked like as 3YO's?

the Reactor would sit outside him and crush him, thats obviously my opinion and it's never changing so it's a waste of time arguing about it....I've done research into the times they ran and if you want to use those facts it's all the Reactor.
The Reactor could reel off 25.0 quarters in cruise control......gutted the way things panned out with him.
I'm not bagging CUF, he was one of my all time faves and a framed photo of him beating Yulestar in an Inter heat has pride of place in my office.

The Reactor and Somebeachsomewhere the best 3yo's I've ever seen, CUF next then Sushi

and how could I leave Franco Ice, Il Vicolo, Yulestar, Bee Bee Cee, Just An Excuse, Changeover, Mainland Banner and Inky Lord off my list of Kiwi stars

Agree with you VK re assessment of Our Sir Vancelot, raced in a particularly weak era and was gifted many Grand Circuit races by stablemate.

After a fifty year involvement in this game, as a punter, bookie,owner and breeder, I have listed below the twelve best that I have seen.

In no particular order.

Halwes
Preux Chevalier
Popular Alm
Gammalite
Pure Steel
Village Kid
Young Quinn
Jack Morris
Westburn Grant
Blacks A Fake
Elsu
Christian Cullen

good list Castiron

yes Sinbad that Auckland Inter final he won was one of the biggest joke races of all time
the kiwi drivers looked like they had OD'ed on sleeping pills, just all sat back and did nothing

Out and out champion

One dimensional, but what a dimension it is. Horss like Super Impose and Vo Rogue were one dimensional but still champions.

Sinbad I think a few people on here are eating their words now.

I think today clearly illustrated how illogical, bias and lacking in substantial factual analysis some of their arguments were.