Australian
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
03 May 12
10:23
Joined:
Date Joined:
24 Jul 04
based on a lot of comments here full timers would have or soon would be exceeding $250k profit
then you have to pay premium charges of 40%
i guess a lot of long term winners will get there eventually
surely then you would have to close your account or betfair get 40% of all winnings
am i reading that right? sounds horrible
then you have to pay premium charges of 40%
i guess a lot of long term winners will get there eventually
surely then you would have to close your account or betfair get 40% of all winnings
am i reading that right? sounds horrible
Show More
maybe they should limit it to 10 years - lifetime seems like it would get most good winners eventually
I am at +138K right now. Gonna be a while before I have to worry, unless they change the threshold.
I would close my account immediately if they asked me to pay 40-60% of winnings. Betfair would cease to be a viable option for me.
I would close my account immediately if they asked me to pay 40-60% of winnings. Betfair would cease to be a viable option for me.
sad isn't it - and we all loved betfair and they do this
saying that it would be a very very long time till i am affected but it's just the concept sucks
They had to do it. It has had the desired effect. There are a lot less bots around these days, or not less, but they ones that are around are just pathetic for the most part. I remember in 2006 they were everywhere and they were 24/7 and skimming out of everything that moved.
ok - like i indicated probably will die before i have to worry and i guess the market will make them move to maybe a 10 year history if too many customers exceed their limit
I thought it was 250K in English pounds, not Oz dollars? If I'm right that's close to 400K Oz dollars.
you are right - oh ok in that case i may have to live a few lives to ever worry
i believe it can get to 60%.....i'm a goner craig ,been here a long time,winning a little consistently,but it does add up .
And speaking of bots, if I ever find the S.O.B. responsible for that annoying farking $5 spread market bot I am gonna put the fkr in the hospital, I aint lying.
Rhino, depends when those pounds were won. When I first started out the exchange rate was vastly different to what it is now. I would say that those who are smart enough to be on the 60% are smart enough to reincarnate themselves without detection..
There are other conditions you know? It is based on your commission generated mainly. If you have a highly successful strike rate, so much so that you never lose, then yes, you will pay 60%. If you are a profitable punter with say 10% profit margin (ie you have a 10% edge) then you shouldn't ever have to pay any more than you are now, regardless of how much you are in profit.
Been a while since I looked at it, but I believe the figure is 20% commission generated. This means that when you win, your commission paid/2 is commission generated. When you lose, the amount you lost/2/commission rate is your commission generated. (Did I say that right? What it means, is if your loss was a win, how much would it cost you in commission, then divide it by 2)....
So basically, ring up and get a PC sheet emailed to you. It will tell you where you are at. But if you are generating >20k in commission for every 100k you profit, then you should be fine.
Unless there is a new charge that I don't know about?
Screw it. Just read this instead......
Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.
Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets.
You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated.
You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80.
You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).
Example 2 - Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets.
You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50.
In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50).
However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid.
You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets.
You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125.
As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge.
However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
†Premium Charges at higher rates
Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:
Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5% 60%
5% - 10% 50%
10%+ 40%
Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.
If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.
The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.
For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.
***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
Been a while since I looked at it, but I believe the figure is 20% commission generated. This means that when you win, your commission paid/2 is commission generated. When you lose, the amount you lost/2/commission rate is your commission generated. (Did I say that right? What it means, is if your loss was a win, how much would it cost you in commission, then divide it by 2)....
So basically, ring up and get a PC sheet emailed to you. It will tell you where you are at. But if you are generating >20k in commission for every 100k you profit, then you should be fine.
Unless there is a new charge that I don't know about?
Screw it. Just read this instead......
Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.
Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets.
You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated.
You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80.
You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).
Example 2 - Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets.
You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50.
In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50).
However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid.
You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets.
You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125.
As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge.
However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
†Premium Charges at higher rates
Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:
Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5% 60%
5% - 10% 50%
10%+ 40%
Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.
If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.
The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.
For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.
***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
a consistent long-term winning punter could probably live with the inequity of a 20% PC charge ... (not good tho for the casual winner who hits a streak)
and the 250k pound bar is where anyone would wait to approach for making their 'one time' change to a new a/c .. (any other is a waste of your one shot at it)
however .. the inequity of the 20% PC is based on a statement .. that makes NO sense whatsoever ... so i can't even entertain this .... cost of advertising to attrwct a new punter
so ... is a losing punter who loses their whole brief (and they dont know they lose it to a PC payer or not ffs lol) ... never going to 'reload' at BF because SOMEONE might be 'winning it all' ... and choose to GO elsewhere such as a t@b lol ... that premise is so farcical and just not for belief
so if a losing punter stops here on bf and doesn't reload ... in all likelihood they might stop 'altogether' from punting ... (and probably a good thing ... for them)
and are non-BF punters likely to come RUNNING to BF if they hear of a 20% PC ... assuming they .. like most punters .. anticipate winning and therefore becoming a target for PC
smoke & mirrors rubbish reasons for the PC imo
maybe the PC is to flush out the bots .. so that the owners can employ their own bots .. to do what private individuals have been doing for years ... more likely imo
sad that genuine 'punt & layers' get caught up in the movement yes
but be aware .. that neither bf or the horse racing authorities anywhere .. have the PUNTER in mind for even small considerations
but hey today is another day ... and its fun .. good fortunes with your endeavours
and the 250k pound bar is where anyone would wait to approach for making their 'one time' change to a new a/c .. (any other is a waste of your one shot at it)
however .. the inequity of the 20% PC is based on a statement .. that makes NO sense whatsoever ... so i can't even entertain this .... cost of advertising to attrwct a new punter
so ... is a losing punter who loses their whole brief (and they dont know they lose it to a PC payer or not ffs lol) ... never going to 'reload' at BF because SOMEONE might be 'winning it all' ... and choose to GO elsewhere such as a t@b lol ... that premise is so farcical and just not for belief
so if a losing punter stops here on bf and doesn't reload ... in all likelihood they might stop 'altogether' from punting ... (and probably a good thing ... for them)
and are non-BF punters likely to come RUNNING to BF if they hear of a 20% PC ... assuming they .. like most punters .. anticipate winning and therefore becoming a target for PC
smoke & mirrors rubbish reasons for the PC imo
maybe the PC is to flush out the bots .. so that the owners can employ their own bots .. to do what private individuals have been doing for years ... more likely imo
sad that genuine 'punt & layers' get caught up in the movement yes
but be aware .. that neither bf or the horse racing authorities anywhere .. have the PUNTER in mind for even small considerations
but hey today is another day ... and its fun .. good fortunes with your endeavours
Have always thought that dooky. What's to stop anyone opening an account in someone else's name and start fresh with no PC?
They link accounts, you would need to change your ISP as well, even then it wouldn't surprise if they suddenly realised that you have stopped betting and a new account holder has the exact same strategy as you.
People always complain about the bots, the problem is not the bots it is the fact the people that write them are way smarter than you and were able to come up with a strategy that worked.
This was not an exclusive club that you could not join, the programs were out there at a very reasonable per month cost, just because you didn't have the ability to take this up is not the fault of the guys using them.
You want to blame someone for the increase in costs blame betfair, they license the technology that runs the bots, they allow them to operate because they make money on the back end.
I don't blame traders, they found a way to make money legally, the same with the bot runners, illegal about this.
This was not an exclusive club that you could not join, the programs were out there at a very reasonable per month cost, just because you didn't have the ability to take this up is not the fault of the guys using them.
You want to blame someone for the increase in costs blame betfair, they license the technology that runs the bots, they allow them to operate because they make money on the back end.
I don't blame traders, they found a way to make money legally, the same with the bot runners, illegal about this.
They link accounts, you would need to change your ISP as well, even then it wouldn't surprise if they suddenly realised that you have stopped betting and a new account holder has the exact same strategy as you.
This happens. New account, new name, new ISP - tick, tick, tick. Probably a stupid move to have the 'new' account holder friends on Facebook.
This happens. New account, new name, new ISP - tick, tick, tick. Probably a stupid move to have the 'new' account holder friends on Facebook.
Balls,
Are you that poor barsteward? I heard about that one..
Are you that poor barsteward? I heard about that one..
It's not at all difficult to 'move' overseas like we used to during the in-play days. Makes it very difficult to ping them imo.
I would say that anyone who got close to the 250k would be best off closing that account & operating a new acct from a different address. You'd need to tick all of the boxes & have alot of trust in your bowler for this to work. But a sling % of profits every week would ensure there was someone keen to help.
so PC is basically a traders commission and not a punter's commission?
from those numbers above if your a full time punter and you qualify for PC you would have to be fuc$8in dead eye ****!
from those numbers above if your a full time punter and you qualify for PC you would have to be fuc$8in dead eye ****!
gatespeed
I know four people including myself who pay the PC, and we are all just gamblers.
Betfair have stated that one in two hundred account holders, pay PC worldwide, but they have never broken the percentages down any further than that.
I know four people including myself who pay the PC, and we are all just gamblers.
Betfair have stated that one in two hundred account holders, pay PC worldwide, but they have never broken the percentages down any further than that.
if thats the case Castiron u then must have a terrific ROI
there are obviously arbing strategies to alleviate this
there are obviously arbing strategies to alleviate this
I tried to arb for a while, but ended up winning on here and losing on the other end...ended up getting banned from the other place, and paying 60% on here...so it's not such a great strategy 
Of course the next week I lost here but won on the other place but they don't refund you....
Of course the next week I lost here but won on the other place but they don't refund you....
gatespeed
I just bet on one code in one state, plus a few bets each week on the AFL.
I mainly lay horses, that I consider under the odds.
I quit Betfair a few weeks after the PC was introduced. Not sure when that was now, probably 2008. I returned early Feb, this year, knowing I would pay the PC straight away, but with a strategy of laying a lot more horses that were borderline lays, hoping to increase my commission paid.
So far I have paid the PC every week bar three, but my % has increased and this week stands at 20.2%. I'm hoping it works, and in 6 months time, I may be out of PC territory.
I just bet on one code in one state, plus a few bets each week on the AFL.
I mainly lay horses, that I consider under the odds.
I quit Betfair a few weeks after the PC was introduced. Not sure when that was now, probably 2008. I returned early Feb, this year, knowing I would pay the PC straight away, but with a strategy of laying a lot more horses that were borderline lays, hoping to increase my commission paid.
So far I have paid the PC every week bar three, but my % has increased and this week stands at 20.2%. I'm hoping it works, and in 6 months time, I may be out of PC territory.
Castiron u seem like a switched on fella
whilst i think joel was being a tad facetious, there are ample opportunities to arb through other betting agencies (mainly the goat sportsbet retail - if you dont want to be banned) to dump a few losses (and wins) through bf to bring your % down
particularly if your code and state offer fixed odds
whilst i think joel was being a tad facetious, there are ample opportunities to arb through other betting agencies (mainly the goat sportsbet retail - if you dont want to be banned) to dump a few losses (and wins) through bf to bring your % down
particularly if your code and state offer fixed odds
Gatespeed. If you think about the various ways to play on here it's quite easy to come up with a way of being so "efficient" 
Just takes big b*lls
Just takes big b*lls
the key to all that gatespeed is making sure your losses are on the fair .. how can you do that with a straight arb?
iam thinking maybe with a sports type event there maybe options to cover all the different results thru betfair different bet types thus getting your commission paid up with a break even result..
iam thinking maybe with a sports type event there maybe options to cover all the different results thru betfair different bet types thus getting your commission paid up with a break even result..
gatespeed
Unfortunately there is no fixed odds available for my betting and I don't have the time to look for arbs in other sports, but I do understand the theory behind doing what you suggested.
Unfortunately there is no fixed odds available for my betting and I don't have the time to look for arbs in other sports, but I do understand the theory behind doing what you suggested.
Whilst I am normally facetious...I wasn't in this case gatespeed, I tried this strategy but unfortunately it didn't work well for me...one or two weeks I lost on here and won with the TAB/Corps but most weeks I ended up winning on here and losing at the others. I eventually got banned by one of the corps and just gave up as it was costing me too much...
let me use your account for a month, and u will soon be far away from PC
wins and losses nickw
the key is to churn as much money through betfair as you can without exposing yourself to losses
the law of large numbers will always be your friend - although joel seemed to be a bit stiff
the key is to churn as much money through betfair as you can without exposing yourself to losses
the law of large numbers will always be your friend - although joel seemed to be a bit stiff
could you not find some mickey mouse market not really being managed, lay some ridiculously high odds and have a friend make up the back part of the bet to rid yourself of profits and then get the cash back of him. There must be numerous ways around this PC surely. It's a problem that I hope to be effected by one day...
Not a bad idea but not sure it's fool proof....tried it once with a mate (even before the PC) but a bot jumped ahead and took the bet
Fair enough, what if your friend put a stupidly high back price first and then you layed it. Would that work?
Not sure, say a friend wanted to back the Madagascarian Camel Cup winner for something at 1000 .....I could try to lay but more than likely a bot will try to back it at 990 or so, even for such a small amount that it's not shown on the normal interface......
God damn bots you can't win. Why haven't all the PC victims moved to that purple place then? Is it available to Aussies?
It used to be but they were sent a letter saying pay or be fined 70k a day and they stopped Aus content.
It is available but they dont have Australian racing anymore unfortunately, they had it for a while but the authorities here had it shut down, I dont think the liquidity there was that great anyway
Joel • May 4, 2012 6:38 AM BST
I tried to arb for a while, but ended up winning on here and losing on the other end...ended up getting banned from the other place, and paying 60% on here...so it's not such a great strategy Of course the next week I lost here but won on the other place but they don't refund you...
Joel • May 4, 2012 7:11 AM BST
Whilst I am normally facetious...I wasn't in this case gatespeed, I tried this strategy but unfortunately it didn't work well for me...one or two weeks I lost on here and won with the TAB/Corps but most weeks I ended up winning on here and losing at the others. I eventually got banned by one of the corps and just gave up as it was costing me too much...
So you are suggesting that you are one of the people with 250k + profit and have generated less than 12500 in commission?
I was under the impression you were a punter, but obviously you are a trader? If you are that good at punting that you are generating less than 5% commission (ie basically never have a losing bet) then you will easily make money on the totes
Now for those in here worrying about teetering on the edge of 20% generated commission, the PC merely takes you up to 20% commission generated. So if you have a week that you win every bet, then yes you will pay close to 20% of your profits, but if you have a week generating 18% commission, then you only top up another 2% to take it to 20%.
For the record, it takes a strike rate of better than 95% winners at even money for a punter to be on 60% PC. 20% needs a strike rate better than 63% winners at even money.
Seems a lot of confusion in here about the PC.
But congratulations Joel on having such a ridiculously high strike rate. You must be very well off.
I tried to arb for a while, but ended up winning on here and losing on the other end...ended up getting banned from the other place, and paying 60% on here...so it's not such a great strategy Of course the next week I lost here but won on the other place but they don't refund you...
Joel • May 4, 2012 7:11 AM BST
Whilst I am normally facetious...I wasn't in this case gatespeed, I tried this strategy but unfortunately it didn't work well for me...one or two weeks I lost on here and won with the TAB/Corps but most weeks I ended up winning on here and losing at the others. I eventually got banned by one of the corps and just gave up as it was costing me too much...
So you are suggesting that you are one of the people with 250k + profit and have generated less than 12500 in commission?
I was under the impression you were a punter, but obviously you are a trader? If you are that good at punting that you are generating less than 5% commission (ie basically never have a losing bet) then you will easily make money on the totes
Now for those in here worrying about teetering on the edge of 20% generated commission, the PC merely takes you up to 20% commission generated. So if you have a week that you win every bet, then yes you will pay close to 20% of your profits, but if you have a week generating 18% commission, then you only top up another 2% to take it to 20%.
For the record, it takes a strike rate of better than 95% winners at even money for a punter to be on 60% PC. 20% needs a strike rate better than 63% winners at even money.
Seems a lot of confusion in here about the PC.
But congratulations Joel on having such a ridiculously high strike rate. You must be very well off.
BJT, i have paid twice since exceeding the threshold & have paid 20% & 31%.
63% winners at even money is hard to achieve for any punter. Especially when it is only over a week. You can have one good week & pay high charge.
My factual last two weeks (in pounds as i cant be bothered converting)
Week 1 net profit 1,742
premium charge 545
Week 2 net loss -1,082
Profit for the fortnight was 660 but i had to PC of 545 so i'm left with 115 pounds profit from about 60 hours work
63% winners at even money is hard to achieve for any punter. Especially when it is only over a week. You can have one good week & pay high charge.
My factual last two weeks (in pounds as i cant be bothered converting)
Week 1 net profit 1,742
premium charge 545
Week 2 net loss -1,082
Profit for the fortnight was 660 but i had to PC of 545 so i'm left with 115 pounds profit from about 60 hours work
i will have to pay more notice of Joels tips if the above is the case.
I will get all my boat people SLAVES to open accounts and we will BEAT the PC. Sign up here if you want a boat people SLAVE account.
How's it goin' Whiskers? Haven't seen you about much lately.
Going along just nicely thankyou.
--Who were you in a past life
--Who were you in a past life
Nearly impossible to get to 60% PC but not diificult to hit the 30/40% mark for some
Kye
The only positive about paying PC, is that the recent commission increase becomes irrelevant.
The only positive about paying PC, is that the recent commission increase becomes irrelevant.
In response to BJT, I don't believe Joel ever said he wasn't a trader. In fact, I think he said he was.
I concur with your summary, sarcastic though it may be. In order to pay PC as a punter you need an extraordinarily high strike rate consistently, such that, if you were that good you really wouldn't have anything to worry about money wise.
Personally, I haven't dipped below the 20% line since 2010 and at 21.6% it would take a big run of winners to push me under. I make good profits year on year, so it's possible to win and never pay a single penny of pc.
I concur with your summary, sarcastic though it may be. In order to pay PC as a punter you need an extraordinarily high strike rate consistently, such that, if you were that good you really wouldn't have anything to worry about money wise.
Personally, I haven't dipped below the 20% line since 2010 and at 21.6% it would take a big run of winners to push me under. I make good profits year on year, so it's possible to win and never pay a single penny of pc.
There are some ways that you can use Betfair, be successful & there is NO way to avoid PC
You are completely wrong there, PC. You are either suggesting I am NOT successful or that I'm paying PC and lying about it. Neither of those assertions would be correct.
I am mainly a trader but I also gamble too, I post some selections on here but don't always bet on here, sometimes I will bet elsewhere
i sold my danzero filly to a trader in 2001 should have kept her 
I bet here there and everywhere, Joel. Betfair isn't always the best value and there are so many sharks on here trying to fleece the numpties.
There one guy that always posts odds in the Half Time margin market (and other places), laying say 1.84 and buying 18.5 hoping someone will mistake the decimal point and just lay the bet. I don't know who does that but he's farking scum, pure and simple. If I happen along I always put a more realistic block in the way. Beyond that I prefer to leave the trading to those with considerably more patience than me.
I should add, I do quite a bit of arb, which is a form of trading, but mostly it's just to keep my mish discount up when I don't have many bets.
Doesn't take long for the rate to erode when you take time away.
There one guy that always posts odds in the Half Time margin market (and other places), laying say 1.84 and buying 18.5 hoping someone will mistake the decimal point and just lay the bet. I don't know who does that but he's farking scum, pure and simple. If I happen along I always put a more realistic block in the way. Beyond that I prefer to leave the trading to those with considerably more patience than me.
I should add, I do quite a bit of arb, which is a form of trading, but mostly it's just to keep my mish discount up when I don't have many bets.
Doesn't take long for the rate to erode when you take time away.
i noticed that sort of thing too crazysnake often for example one side is 3.3 and on the other is 34 etc
I have just contracted someone to create a bot to manage that situation and prevent it in the absence of the Bettie bot. Will cost me a grand to do it, but will stop someone else losing a grand by making an fat-fingered mistake. Let's see how long it takes this guy. Probably won't be ready til it no longer matters, but he came at mate's rates.
ive seen that as well crazy, there was somebody a while ago always trying to back horses that were in the market at 17.5 and they were wanting $30 on them it only happened on in play betting only.i got his cash a few times 
catrap I reckon that's (the inplay bet) a lot different to what crazysnake was posting about. That's just a bet asking for big odds as there is a high risk of the horse being a cerainly beaten runner if the market hits that level on a favoured horse. It's not a "trap" bet just the same as backing a roughie prejump IMHO.
From you being able to take the bet I'd assume the bet stayed in the market well into the race's run time.
From you being able to take the bet I'd assume the bet stayed in the market well into the race's run time.
Yeah, keep seeing trap bets in non in play markets. I need to put a stop to it. I have never seen him match a bet but I am sure he has. Why else would he persist?
Speaking of betting, got the dreaded Sportsbet "sorry, sir, but your bets are now limited to $500 pay out on football". Was inevitable, I guess.
Time to get creative. They think they can stop me. I have held an account with Sportsbet since 1998. Never had any trouble til these stinking Irish ****s showed up. $500 bucks on football is a joke. Might as well be $10 for all that's worth.
Speaking of betting, got the dreaded Sportsbet "sorry, sir, but your bets are now limited to $500 pay out on football". Was inevitable, I guess.
Time to get creative
. They think they can stop me. I have held an account with Sportsbet since 1998. Never had any trouble til these stinking Irish ****s showed up. $500 bucks on football is a joke. Might as well be $10 for all that's worth.
Just received the same sort of message from the same mob Crazy. ****s indeed. NT gaming comish need to pull their fingers out and regulate a little better to bring them into line with on course bookies.
sportsbet and Ias (same thing) are now a shadow of their past.My concerns are that the playing field is shrinking so quickly that all those with ability will end up devouring what is left ,until only the scrote survive.
Crazy..wasn't referring to the way you play on here
But the way i operate there is no way to avoid paying PC. It is impossible to avoid. I'm not saying exactly what i do but if you think of what Betfair offers & nobody else does you'll work it out. & i'm not a trader
But the way i operate there is no way to avoid paying PC. It is impossible to avoid. I'm not saying exactly what i do but if you think of what Betfair offers & nobody else does you'll work it out. & i'm not a trader
PCisaripoff,
I'm on 40% but have not been slugged since December 4.
Simply by using my own Churning Robots.
The principle applies even for mere humans.
Find some markets where you ain't that flash, so that you merely break even after commission. Then churn them obsessively.
That rake offsets the Charges.
I'm on 40% but have not been slugged since December 4.
Simply by using my own Churning Robots.
The principle applies even for mere humans.
Find some markets where you ain't that flash, so that you merely break even after commission. Then churn them obsessively.
That rake offsets the Charges.
PC,
Are you Melbourne based? If you are, maybe we could get together and compare notes. I am sure there is lots we can learn from eachother...that offer applies to any other professionals based in Melbourne.
Syndicate might be the way forward.
Are you Melbourne based? If you are, maybe we could get together and compare notes. I am sure there is lots we can learn from eachother...that offer applies to any other professionals based in Melbourne.
Syndicate might be the way forward.
I'm from up North Crazy, but am in Melb for Origin 1 in 2 weeks & sticking around for the weekend. Will send my number to you.
And all this time I was thinking PC was another incarnate of woodyandbuzz...
so this premium charge for example 40% if you lay a horse to get a $100 out of it u have to pay $40 comission. is this what you's are on about ? if thats the case thats a load of bullsh!t
Cat,
PC is 20% contribution based upon all time winnings. If you are under that mark you pay the difference in PC up to 20%. There is a secondary charge for those that have made more than 250,000 pounds profit over the lifetime of their accounts which is an additional amount that varies depending upon your measure of profitability and whether or not you punt or trade (as I understand it anyway).
If you are subject to PC it isn't worth betting on Betfair for much of the time. The extra charge kills any premium price you might receive here. Instead of aiming at the bot owners that killed the site to begin with they targeted the bigger profitable punters and drove many of them away.
PC is 20% contribution based upon all time winnings. If you are under that mark you pay the difference in PC up to 20%. There is a secondary charge for those that have made more than 250,000 pounds profit over the lifetime of their accounts which is an additional amount that varies depending upon your measure of profitability and whether or not you punt or trade (as I understand it anyway).
If you are subject to PC it isn't worth betting on Betfair for much of the time. The extra charge kills any premium price you might receive here. Instead of aiming at the bot owners that killed the site to begin with they targeted the bigger profitable punters and drove many of them away.
i can't work out how this PC is calculated. i can show you two spreadsheets where everything is identical except the PC applied. one week i paid $850 & the other $10. it's fkd.
No doubt it was your position in relation to the overall required contribution. One week you were above the line and the other you started below. Makes a huge difference to your net result.
I understand the PC calculation intimately. I made it my business when it came in so I could beat it. It took a long time to get on top of it, but it can be done.
I understand the PC calculation intimately. I made it my business when it came in so I could beat it. It took a long time to get on top of it, but it can be done.
jfc..........09 May 12 06:04
PCisaripoff,
I'm on 40% but have not been slugged since December 4.
Simply by using my own Churning Robots.
The principle applies even for mere humans.
Find some markets where you ain't that flash, so that you merely break even after commission. Then churn them obsessively.
That rake offsets the Charges.
........................................
Well done jfc, I think that is the first time you have made a positive post on this forum. Although I very much doubt it is your own idea and that you do it yourself.
PCisaripoff,
I'm on 40% but have not been slugged since December 4.
Simply by using my own Churning Robots.
The principle applies even for mere humans.
Find some markets where you ain't that flash, so that you merely break even after commission. Then churn them obsessively.
That rake offsets the Charges.
........................................
Well done jfc, I think that is the first time you have made a positive post on this forum. Although I very much doubt it is your own idea and that you do it yourself.
Maybe the crazy snake should come to this years drinks night
There's an annual drinks night I didn't know about???? Are they free?
I'm in a tail spin
I'm in a tail spin
Seems everybody here is winning, anyone actually losing?
It stands to reason the people on the forum are more likely to win. They are here more than most.
If you're here a lot and you know what you're doing you'll make a killing. It's that simple.
This week's charge is 34% of net profit.
Hard to justify staying here or punt at all at that rate.
Hard to justify staying here or punt at all at that rate.
If you're paying PC you're profitable (unless you arb). It could be worse. You're still in the top 5%.
Crazysnake, i do a lot of work (i also have a full time job) & take a lot of risks to win a small amount only to lose most of it to BF. Hardly been able to make a withdrawal since incurring this charge. The point is that BF make more than me from my hardwork.
Kye
Has the increase in charges from commission paid helped in paying less Pc?
Has the increase in charges from commission paid helped in paying less Pc?
Kye,
You're either hedging too much or you're too successful. If you're a punter you could make more with the corps, if you're a trader then you need to reinvent the way you do things. Would be happy to discuss how you could restructure.
You're either hedging too much or you're too successful. If you're a punter you could make more with the corps, if you're a trader then you need to reinvent the way you do things. Would be happy to discuss how you could restructure.
Nick, i'm paying an extra couple hundred of commissions every week so i suppose it does reduce PC. Either way its going to them.
Crazysnake, i'm just a punter mainly dogs & corps don't do it for me. Either banned or they reject or copy bets (which is no good when betting into small dog pools).
Crazysnake, i'm just a punter mainly dogs & corps don't do it for me. Either banned or they reject or copy bets (which is no good when betting into small dog pools).
yes i understand just thought may make a bit less painful
The p c is a real blight on the betfair name No doubt
The p c is a real blight on the betfair name No doubt
Kye,
If you're punting dogs and you're that successful at it, you might be better off just betting at the TAB. Even if you bet into small pools they tend to correct late on big unders, even if you bet large enough to create those situations.
One thing is certain: Betting with the TAB is better than paying 20%+ to Betfair. You'd still wind up in front on the deal in my estimation.
If you're punting dogs and you're that successful at it, you might be better off just betting at the TAB. Even if you bet into small pools they tend to correct late on big unders, even if you bet large enough to create those situations.
One thing is certain: Betting with the TAB is better than paying 20%+ to Betfair. You'd still wind up in front on the deal in my estimation.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539