'You need a 2.5 mile horse to win the National'

Crisp was a 2 miler was'nt he

Always been absolute rubbish, the BBC used to trot it out every year.  Th only horse I can think off that fits the bill in the past 40 years is Maori Venture.  You might manage two winners in a lifetime backing every 2½ specialist but would lose a fortune.

plenty when it was a much stiffer test of jumping sed to get placed,classified,the tsavich spring to mind,so there was deffinately something in it more have run well than the slow 4  mile plodders

Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler

eyecatcher

Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler

He had won a 3m chase and he beat a badly impeded horse and two that remounted.

Don't remember a horse called Eyecatcher winning the GN??

Probably spherical objects these days - Gay Trip always used to be the one trotted out when I was a lad. I agree with FTP above re the old stiffer fences. Also think they go faster on the first circuit these days which puts more of a premium on stamina.

eyecatcher never won but ran well on a number of occasions and placed a few times

It's as totally bollox as anything is possible to be, imo...

Classified was a two and a half miler, Southernair, The Tsarevich... something in it imho, as long as ground isn't testing.

How many of those won the National Johnny ?

Was it Vincent O'Brien that coined this phrase? Or someone else?

I suspect that because such a high profile racing figure said it, that it's regularly used to promote the chancers of a two - two and half miler. Inevitably a few end up in the race every year.

you do need a 2and a half mile horse to win the national.
as long as it joins in at halfway.

Bindaree ?

Every National winner for the last forty years had previously won over 3 m+ (Gay Trip the last no to).

If a genuine 2.4 miler runs runs in the the National he would be a place lay,if a so called 2.4 miler runs in the National and goes on to win, that would be proof that it was never a 2.4 miler in the first place.

Told you it was Gay Trip's fault!

I don't recollect Maori Venture had one over 3m+ TBH.  Not that I subscribe to the 2½ specialist argument.

I'm sure maori venture won the mandarin chase.

It was probably Peter O'Sullevan, he got away with talking bollox for over 40 years

It's not a case of two and a half mile specialists being suited to the National. It's horses that have won at two and a half miles being capable of winning it. Southernair, ridden by Smith-Eccles, was leading when he felt at the 2nd last iirc. They all ran well enough to suggest two and a half mile winners can win the GN. If Calgary Bay wins this year, this will be another pointer.

*fell

Johnny, that was the 1990 topham.

sorry, stand corrected on Southernair, Fabulous. You are correct. Memory starts to play tricks after 20+ years. But my point remains.

Who mentioned my name? Two and a half miler?. You must be joking.

the term isn't meant to be taken literally...it just means that you need a horse that can travel during his race at a faster pace than a typical 4 mile plodder.

Well handicapped horses win the National and running a horse over it's wrong distance can help hide it's true merits so maybe some truth in this old adage(?) especially back in the day

face it, 80% luck

If a horse was classy enough to run over 2 and 2 1/2 miles chases earlier in his career and has come to need further, perhaps returning after a break, he can be a good prospect in the National.

Don't Push It fell into that category last year and Tidal Bay and Or Noir de Samoza cd this.

However, the saying was much truer 20+ years ago when the race was struggling and not a lifetime target for good staying chasers.

You know I think I am wrong about Maori Venture; in which case I can't think of a single "2½ specialist" that has won the National in the last 40 years as the winners ave all won over at least 3m.

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Replies: 1655 05 Apr 11 18:55   
Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler

He had won a 3m chase and he beat a badly impeded horse and two that remounted.

Don't remember a horse called Eyecatcher winning the GN??


Sorry, but no he hadn't. He won a 3m hcp hrd of a far lower mark.
All his best form was @ 2m5f, therefore I would say he was a 2 1/2 miler.

I'm not debating the worth(form) of his win, just stating that he won the race.

I got shot down in flames when I said Don't Push It would get 3 miles and some would still argue his best trip round park fences was 2m4f. Gay Trip was definitely a 2m4f horse and as us old timers who saw him know he sprinted away from them.

Obviously you don't need to have a 2m4f horse but the fact remains they get a second wind and do win the race. Then you have the real stayers like Mon Mome and L'Escargot etc.

I maintain if they have the class they can win the race whether they be out and out stayers or 2m4f+ horses.

Softer ground won't help the latter this year though.

It's a theory that has got distorted over the years into nonsense. What would have some validity is that there's a benefit to having a staying chaser capable of being effective over 2.5 miles - i.e one with a decent amount of tactical speed. There have been a few horses who've stepped up from 2.5m and run well, Red Maurauder is the only one in living memory to have won and he beat one horse (a blatent non-stayer) so that doesn't really count. But generally these horses prove to be stayers who were just running over the wrong trip before.

The notion that you need a *specialist* 2.5 miler for the national is, and always has been, completely ridiculous. There are people who cling to the belief that horses that don't stay 3m on a park course are somehow going to stay 4.5m at Aintree, this gets trotted out year after year. I'm a fan of statistics so I thought I'd reproduce a list of all the horses that have done this in the 100+ years of the national:

List of specialist 2.5 milers who stay the national trip:










{end}
Hope that helps.

duffy 06 Apr 11 00:19 
the term isn't meant to be taken literally...it just means that you need a horse that can travel during his race at a faster pace than a typical 4 mile plodder.

Exactly right duffy,

Agree with much of what you say but not your zero list - I would regard Gay Trip as a specialist 2.5 miler, particularly on the basis that he won two Mackesons.

I thought people stopped trotting this out about 20 yrs ago.

You certainly want a horse with a bit of speed - presumably that's why most National winners have won a Class 2 (or better) chase and at least placed in a Class 1 chase. But if your horse doesn't stay, it can't win.

Johnyrant- have you noticed that Calgary bay ran away with a 3 mile chase?

yes, town moor, well aware of his form figures but he is a horse that represents the two and a half mile angle. I reiterate - it is not something to treat literally as duffy stated above. I'm not arguing that. No one is.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the argument. I thought a 2 1/2 miler would be a horse previously thought to have an optimum trip of 2 1/2 miles.

forget one hasnt won neither do 4 mile plodders,the argument goes that you have a better chance of winning with a 2.5 miler with some tactical speed ,than backing some slow old boat who the theory goes they,ll run on at the end,but they go to quick and plodders lose interest out the back avoiding fallers and pull ups,before their stamin has a chance to kick in,as neither tends to win depends what run style you want for your money

You need a 2 and a half mile horse to win the natioal. Fred Rimel claimed that after his Gay Trip won, he later retracted that. I went for Calgari Bay, has all the creds, Trainer cant buy a winner, said he wont stay, jockey been having a nightmare of a season, cant get a ride let alone a winner, dont beleave he has ridden in the race, got a saver kick in the Ed's went a circuit to soon a few weeks ago at Folkstone, Calgari Bay at times has looked a bit of thinker or looks afterhimself in his races...dont mind that for a Natonal horse, so when you add all that up he must be a penalty kick. i think he will stay, jumps like a buck, ran a cracker last time at Cheltenham (2nd), stayed on well, came from along way back that day, and he's a fresh horse, and i like his jockey. took 40s.

It's always been rubbish. Just because sometimes a 2.5 miler wins it doesn't stop it being rubbish.

The funniest thread on Betfair in years !!!! Fools and their money .....

The last two silly "one liners" add nothing to this excellent debate.

you def need a horse thats strong over 2.5- ideally then even stronger for another couple of miles

The GN is the ultimate stayers race won by specialist out and out STAYERS. Try Bingo numb head - you might just get the hang of that ...

Lord - Did you read the whole thread before posting? Did you have any view on the views put forward or were you content to rely on your dismissive one-liner. 

You will see from the above that I do not subscribe to the preposition as posted originally, but I do recognise that there is some merit in the underlying argument.

Re your 22.41 post, two questions, why resort to insults?, and why make a vaguely ridiculous assertion to back up your earlier and cursory  assessment of the argument.

Pompous with it ...

blimey- i'm new to this posting lark - so much anger in the room. its only a horse race guys-

lord - I am ok with pompous!.  Any meaningful response or was that it?

Show me a meaningful thread first ...

So you're ok with pompous too!!   Imo this thread is (was) meaningful, balanced and interesting, and deserved much better than your  dismissive post of 22.21.

You moaned about my post too but it summed up the situation perfectly.