Grand National
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05 Apr 11
17:08
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01 Mar 03
Does anyone actually believe this or has any of our little sewing circle actually heard anyone come out with this gem, and genuinely believe it?
Personally I think it's something that's just fallen into racing folklore, or it's like one of those 'Politically Correct council's that have banned Christmas' stories. It doesn't exist but if enough people keep repeating it then it gains some traction.
Whatever.
It's clearly balls.
Personally I think it's something that's just fallen into racing folklore, or it's like one of those 'Politically Correct council's that have banned Christmas' stories. It doesn't exist but if enough people keep repeating it then it gains some traction.
Whatever.
It's clearly balls.
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Replies: 54
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Crisp was a 2 miler was'nt he
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Always been absolute rubbish, the BBC used to trot it out every year. Th only horse I can think off that fits the bill in the past 40 years is Maori Venture. You might manage two winners in a lifetime backing every 2½ specialist but would lose a fortune.
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plenty when it was a much stiffer test of jumping sed to get placed,classified,the tsavich spring to mind,so there was deffinately something in it more have run well than the slow 4 mile plodders
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Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler
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eyecatcher
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Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler
He had won a 3m chase and he beat a badly impeded horse and two that remounted. Don't remember a horse called Eyecatcher winning the GN?? |
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Probably spherical objects these days - Gay Trip always used to be the one trotted out when I was a lad. I agree with FTP above re the old stiffer fences. Also think they go faster on the first circuit these days which puts more of a premium on stamina.
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eyecatcher never won but ran well on a number of occasions and placed a few times
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It's as totally bollox as anything is possible to be, imo...
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Classified was a two and a half miler, Southernair, The Tsarevich... something in it imho, as long as ground isn't testing.
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How many of those won the National Johnny ?
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Was it Vincent O'Brien that coined this phrase? Or someone else?
I suspect that because such a high profile racing figure said it, that it's regularly used to promote the chancers of a two - two and half miler. Inevitably a few end up in the race every year. |
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you do need a 2and a half mile horse to win the national.
as long as it joins in at halfway.  |
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Bindaree ?
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Every National winner for the last forty years had previously won over 3 m+ (Gay Trip the last no to).
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If a genuine 2.4 miler runs runs in the the National he would be a place lay,if a so called 2.4 miler runs in the National and goes on to win, that would be proof that it was never a 2.4 miler in the first place.
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Told you it was Gay Trip's fault!
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I don't recollect Maori Venture had one over 3m+ TBH. Not that I subscribe to the 2½ specialist argument.
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I'm sure maori venture won the mandarin chase.
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It was probably Peter O'Sullevan, he got away with talking bollox for over 40 years
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It's not a case of two and a half mile specialists being suited to the National. It's horses that have won at two and a half miles being capable of winning it. Southernair, ridden by Smith-Eccles, was leading when he felt at the 2nd last iirc. They all ran well enough to suggest two and a half mile winners can win the GN. If Calgary Bay wins this year, this will be another pointer.
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*fell
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Johnny, that was the 1990 topham.
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sorry, stand corrected on Southernair, Fabulous. You are correct. Memory starts to play tricks after 20+ years. But my point remains.
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Who mentioned my name? Two and a half miler?. You must be joking.
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the term isn't meant to be taken literally...it just means that you need a horse that can travel during his race at a faster pace than a typical 4 mile plodder.
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Well handicapped horses win the National and running a horse over it's wrong distance can help hide it's true merits so maybe some truth in this old adage(?) especially back in the day
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face it, 80% luck
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If a horse was classy enough to run over 2 and 2 1/2 miles chases earlier in his career and has come to need further, perhaps returning after a break, he can be a good prospect in the National.
Don't Push It fell into that category last year and Tidal Bay and Or Noir de Samoza cd this. However, the saying was much truer 20+ years ago when the race was struggling and not a lifetime target for good staying chasers. |
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You know I think I am wrong about Maori Venture; in which case I can't think of a single "2½ specialist" that has won the National in the last 40 years as the winners ave all won over at least 3m.
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Storm Alert Joined: 22 Oct 02
Replies: 1655 05 Apr 11 18:55 Red Marauder was a 2 1/2 miler He had won a 3m chase and he beat a badly impeded horse and two that remounted. Don't remember a horse called Eyecatcher winning the GN?? Sorry, but no he hadn't. He won a 3m hcp hrd of a far lower mark. All his best form was @ 2m5f, therefore I would say he was a 2 1/2 miler. I'm not debating the worth(form) of his win, just stating that he won the race. |
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I got shot down in flames when I said Don't Push It would get 3 miles and some would still argue his best trip round park fences was 2m4f. Gay Trip was definitely a 2m4f horse and as us old timers who saw him know he sprinted away from them.
Obviously you don't need to have a 2m4f horse but the fact remains they get a second wind and do win the race. Then you have the real stayers like Mon Mome and L'Escargot etc. I maintain if they have the class they can win the race whether they be out and out stayers or 2m4f+ horses. Softer ground won't help the latter this year though. |
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It's a theory that has got distorted over the years into nonsense. What would have some validity is that there's a benefit to having a staying chaser capable of being effective over 2.5 miles - i.e one with a decent amount of tactical speed. There have been a few horses who've stepped up from 2.5m and run well, Red Maurauder is the only one in living memory to have won and he beat one horse (a blatent non-stayer) so that doesn't really count. But generally these horses prove to be stayers who were just running over the wrong trip before.
The notion that you need a *specialist* 2.5 miler for the national is, and always has been, completely ridiculous. There are people who cling to the belief that horses that don't stay 3m on a park course are somehow going to stay 4.5m at Aintree, this gets trotted out year after year. I'm a fan of statistics so I thought I'd reproduce a list of all the horses that have done this in the 100+ years of the national: List of specialist 2.5 milers who stay the national trip: {end} Hope that helps. |
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duffy 06 Apr 11 00:19
the term isn't meant to be taken literally...it just means that you need a horse that can travel during his race at a faster pace than a typical 4 mile plodder. Exactly right duffy, |
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Agree with much of what you say but not your zero list - I would regard Gay Trip as a specialist 2.5 miler, particularly on the basis that he won two Mackesons.
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I thought people stopped trotting this out about 20 yrs ago.
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You certainly want a horse with a bit of speed - presumably that's why most National winners have won a Class 2 (or better) chase and at least placed in a Class 1 chase. But if your horse doesn't stay, it can't win.
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Johnyrant- have you noticed that Calgary bay ran away with a 3 mile chase?
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yes, town moor, well aware of his form figures but he is a horse that represents the two and a half mile angle. I reiterate - it is not something to treat literally as duffy stated above. I'm not arguing that. No one is.
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