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09 Feb 18 17:05
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Date Joined: 22 May 02
| Topic/replies: 14,009 | Blogger: Betfair Customer Services's blog
At Betfair, we’re always trying to improve the betting experience. Furthermore, we believe we have one of the best Horse Racing products on the market, particularly when the race has already begun. Despite this, there’s still room for improvement. We’d like to enhance our offering  further by removing the in-running bet delay, which is currently set to 1 second. We believe this would allow bets to be matched quicker and more frequently, whilst also improving the success rate of Cash Out and our new Auto Cash Out functionality.

We really value your feedback, so please comment with any considerations that you have on this topic below.
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Report dave1357 February 9, 2018 10:20 PM GMT
its the way I'd do an in running bet anyway if I had fast pics and the skill required.
Report ph. February 9, 2018 10:22 PM GMT
WH I've no idea what the actual delay is nowadays, I can remember 1.9 secs, 2.8 secs,4 secs, 7 secs and last time I was interested ATR had a few days around 11.7 secs behind live so forgive me if I don't think BF knocking a second from their acceptance has any worthwhile bearing on anything. The fast pics boys have cleaned out the stupid and gullible and now BF see in running drying up they are clutching at straws to give it a boost. I understand LV has improved when it works but that isn't guaranteed day to day. Willie if u were a stay at home punter reliant on ATR or RUK would you play in running?
Report pablo-fanque February 9, 2018 10:29 PM GMT
"the quickest available to them"

like what ?
Report Rob_The_Bantam February 9, 2018 10:32 PM GMT
If at Hexham, Sedgefield, Newcastle etc, they just use the Facetimers in the boxes.
Report pablo-fanque February 9, 2018 10:34 PM GMT
Happy rob
Report Willie Shafter. February 9, 2018 10:43 PM GMT
pablo-fanque    09 Feb 18 22:29 
"the quickest available to them"

ruk...and their feed that supplies the blv..and no facetimers in any boxes.
Report pablo-fanque February 9, 2018 10:57 PM GMT
cheers WS

so i guess they are slow to suspend on the line on purpose . i have seen races on LV that suspend 2-3 seconds after the line, sometimes more if it's a close finish
Report Willie Shafter. February 9, 2018 11:14 PM GMT
no not on purpose..they can only use whats available to them..and blv never suspends more than few yds past line and the 1 sec delay stops getting matched.
Report pablo-fanque February 9, 2018 11:30 PM GMT
willie , if it's a very close finish ( 2.0 the pair in a photo ) , i have seen the suspend appear at least 4 or more seconds after they have crossed the line , many times .
Report DOUBLED February 10, 2018 10:01 AM GMT
Call me a cynic but.............. Betfair interested in their customers opinion ?? The same customers who have been treated with utter contempt for years ?? Maybe you should ask our opinion on charges ranging from 22% to 62% based on some historical data that can go back further than ten years !!
Might just be a coincidence but the competition gathering pace and offering much better terms may have awoken the complacent beast from its slumbers.
You say we "have" the best in running product but that may soon be "had" and having zero delay on bet placement is a little like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic,in my opinion of course.
Report Agadolphin February 10, 2018 11:15 AM GMT
Think this is a great idea. Too often I strike prices in the box and still there then wait the 1 second
and only part matched.......often for tiny amounts. Anyone playing late off delayed pics have no one to blame
bar themselves. I like to play mid-race or 2/3rds in. Will definitely make me play more often.

RUK pics are well playable inrunning imo.......those waiting for something clear cut will never make
it pay unless on course/facetiming pics.
Report geoff m February 10, 2018 11:41 AM GMT
Agadolphin the same price will still dissapear as the 1s who are taking them will still be taking them 1 second earlier than you. Nothing changes in that aspect.
Report dustybin February 10, 2018 11:44 AM GMT
I hope they do it, reducing the amount of time the BF bot has to determine value against what others are offering at any one time is a good thing.
Though I do wonder what it would be like. Those who think getting rid of it will save stay at home players on fallers havn't considered that at present on course bets also take 1 second to match, so they will still lose their money.

I think the prices will be all over the place, once markets are opened IR the money disappears anyway, the thing that people watch fluctuates and if prices match instantly then they will come and go in a flash. All those 2 quid bets will vanish about as soon as they appear and people might click on a price only for the price to have jumped to the next price that they didnt want.

But FI, lets do it, take the stabilisers off and lets all go down in a blaze of glory.
Report Agadolphin February 10, 2018 11:46 AM GMT
More often the prices aren't taken but cancelled. To cancel a bet the 1 second delay doesn't apply.
So,in theory, it will be easier against the person who puts a price up and either manually cancels
or waits for fill or kill.
Report dustybin February 10, 2018 11:51 AM GMT
People bet on what they see.
At home players would have to only bet upto within 4 strides of a jump.
Report madrigal February 10, 2018 12:02 PM GMT
!) Remove it

2) faster live pictures

3) is it legal for a BF bot to stalk me when I enter a price ??
Report geoff m February 10, 2018 12:11 PM GMT
3) Yes :    but only you.WinkWink
Report lcredd February 10, 2018 1:02 PM GMT
Faster live pictures - YES (but never gonna happen)
Remove delay - NO.

The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.
Report brassneck February 10, 2018 1:13 PM GMT
if i try to place a bet on an in play football match they suspend and post goals that are going to be scored in 4 or 5 MINUTES time.
on in play horse racing usually they suspend and post the winner,but they allow me to back a loser every time.but never allow me to back the winner,their betting is miles ahead of anything they say is live.
Report bettinghelp February 10, 2018 1:27 PM GMT
The delay was introduced to protect slower picture feed bettors, but it was never any use in practice because the pic delay is more than 1 second. So for most people it only functions as an irritant, imo.

It might as well be removed, but the real crux of the matter is obtaining faster pictures. Until that happens, the minority will continue to profit from the majority, delay or no delay.
Report Willie Shafter. February 10, 2018 1:54 PM GMT
so are bf going to decide by whats peoples opinion in this thread are?
Report Kriskin February 10, 2018 2:00 PM GMT
When is it being removed???
Report brassneck February 10, 2018 2:05 PM GMT
when you look at the live pictures you think its live,but they can slow it down or speed it up and you will not know that its being delayed because the buffer(think thats the word)continues where it was  delayed not showing the stall in time.if you can understand.
Report dave1357 February 10, 2018 2:09 PM GMT
lcredd    10 Feb 18 13:02 

The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.


That is the point of the delay, but to what extent it is effective is debateable. 

with the delay:

a slow picture punter puts in a bet, something significant happens, if the significant is good for him, because of the delay his bet isn't accepted, bad for him his bet is taken.

a slow picture punter has an unmatched bet, something significant happens.  It is possible that the 1 sec delay allows him to cancel, but I'd have to be convinced that this happens much with slow picture punters, in any case I'm pretty sure that fast picture punters manage to cancel a lot more. 

Without the delay (in theory*) the prices that people see they get and those prices are going to be led by fast picture players.  So even though they don't have fast pictures they should be unaffected if they take a bet ie the prices should be "true" (even if the information that the slow picture player is using isn't). So without the delay the slow picture player doesn't get disadvantaged.  They still get scooped if they leave bets up, but some fast picture players do as well by the fastest of the fast fingers.

Overall I think the it won't make much difference.  People who leave bets up for a long time are going to lose under both conditions, but people wanting to bet what is available won't be so disadvantaged and won't get frustrated when they bet something, don't get taken and the horse wins.

*The major problem here is the tech set up of different users might mean that they still don't get the price they click on.
Report system99 February 10, 2018 2:22 PM GMT
ALL BEEN PROPER HOOKED IMO

STRANGE EVERYOTHER THREAD OF THERES STAYED ON TOP

WELL PLAYED LOL
Report screaming from beneaththewaves February 10, 2018 2:24 PM GMT
dustybin:  people might click on a price only for the price to have jumped to the next price that they didnt want.

That's nothing to do with any delay in placement. That's down to whichever refresh rate you've set. This particular change won't make any difference.
Report Willie Shafter. February 10, 2018 2:31 PM GMT
becos it was posted 'into' the forum ydc.
Report Deltâ February 10, 2018 2:38 PM GMT
and asks for comments!
Report system99 February 10, 2018 2:58 PM GMT
AYE COS THEY OFTEN DO THAT

ydc happy to help
Report Willie Shafter. February 10, 2018 3:08 PM GMT
cos this time they being considerate ..
Report mouse muldoon February 10, 2018 3:09 PM GMT
Doesn't mean they're listening.
Report Willie Shafter. February 10, 2018 3:10 PM GMT
needs the monkey mans opinion.
Report Rider February 10, 2018 3:30 PM GMT
This is good news for those on faster pictures but not for the vast majority. IR on racing is already a restrictive game, this just makes it easier to hoover and possibly more premium charge for betfair in the short term.

My betting IR has been greatly reduced due to the difficulty of getting matched due to the seemingly drop in liquidity, this will just means fewer people will leave bets up and make matters worse, a horse breaking down will mean all orders will be immediately swept up and also orders/lays will need to be cancelled further from fences etc than currently.

As said, pictures need to be speeded up to the minimum delay and a processing delay kept in place that protects the orders/lays from being swept up by those watching on close circuit pictures.
Report Willie Shafter. February 10, 2018 3:48 PM GMT
who leaves bets up these days? is bot orientated nowadays.
Report Rider February 10, 2018 3:55 PM GMT
other than those doing the keep bets, probably a very small % of what it could be, but i do, sometimes, depending on the bet, but only in the 'safe' windows that will become narrower

its no longer a big deal mind, when home users lose pictures the visual impression of liquidity generally doesnt seem to change much, would i be compensated by getting matched, i doubt it
Report Rider February 10, 2018 3:56 PM GMT
*matched more
Report bettinghelp February 10, 2018 4:44 PM GMT
Willie Shafter.

who leaves bets up these days? is bot orientated nowadays.


Value seekers, DOB-ers, reverse DOB-ers, pre-race backers, some pre-race layers, and I'm sure many others.

Anyway, what difference does it make who puts them up and why?
Report Willie Shafter. February 11, 2018 1:54 PM GMT
was a rhetorical question.
Report TheFear February 11, 2018 2:27 PM GMT
willie any thoughts on the speed of ruk for ireland when it switches?
Report TheFear February 11, 2018 2:27 PM GMT
SIS will be passing the pics to RUK so could be slower was my guess
Report tips February 11, 2018 3:19 PM GMT
very few on track players in Ireland so as long as its on a par with LV should be ok
Report geoff m February 11, 2018 3:33 PM GMT
hope you dont mean slower than ATR  The Fear !!
Report jamesdean February 11, 2018 3:36 PM GMT
I think Leicester and Taunton still send their pics via sis to ruk and they are ok, same as rest of ruk pics.
That's not 100% though so might be wrong..
Report TheFear February 11, 2018 3:41 PM GMT
lol not slower than atr (is that even possible) but even 2 secs would be a disaster.

tips - lots of facetime action in ireland

not sure about leicester and taunton - they were slower than usual on RUK for a while werent they. Still raw feeds for those tracks so maybe SIS is involved.
Report jamesdean February 11, 2018 3:46 PM GMT
Aye I think they were slower 1st few meetings they moved over to ruk from atr but have now speeded up.
Report tomhunt February 11, 2018 3:53 PM GMT
the technology is there to send it down the broadband route, sky are going that way for the future trying to cut down on the use of dishes, aren't irish tracks mostly fibre optic, no brainer
Report Willie Shafter. February 11, 2018 4:21 PM GMT
ruk norm run their platform on the same speed -1.3 ish...the feed at leic is behind ruk so they still use fibre there. Ire will become playable when on ruk (if they use fibre & fibre is already there)
plenty track players/callers in ire.
Report TheFear February 11, 2018 4:47 PM GMT
cheers
Report madrigal February 12, 2018 4:25 PM GMT
Live video --not--at Plumpton today.    FIX THIS FIRST
Report Deltâ February 12, 2018 4:41 PM GMT
easier to play today with the 1 sec off
Report mouse muldoon February 12, 2018 4:45 PM GMT
mine sez 1237 ms
Report Deltâ February 12, 2018 4:47 PM GMT
78
88
90
96
96
135
147
159
185
199
204
224
238
238
273
276
288
Report mouse muldoon February 12, 2018 4:49 PM GMT
Darn it! must upgrade my gruss then.
Report ps111 February 13, 2018 7:21 PM GMT
Remove the delays in horse racing markets and half time football markets
Report fcm February 14, 2018 9:10 PM GMT
Very much in favour of removing the delay. Long overdue imho.
Report mouse muldoon February 14, 2018 9:16 PM GMT
Sir Roger Moore (nap)
Report Deltâ February 14, 2018 9:24 PM GMT
fcm   

get a grip


rabbit rabbit rabbit  ..
Report Willie Shafter. February 14, 2018 9:34 PM GMT
bf still debating the situ.
Report Jack Bauer '24' February 14, 2018 10:00 PM GMT
Should have been removed years ago as it is more of a hindrance than anything else. Hopefully this happens soon to give us a chance to test things out before Cheltenham.
Report Willie Shafter. February 14, 2018 11:30 PM GMT
said may trial on flat 1st.
Report bugs bunny February 15, 2018 2:22 PM GMT
what difference will this make to home players there been no delay , how can you beat track players and the army of facetimers , the horse racing inrunning will continue to decline without the introduction of faster feeds available to all
Report Willie Shafter. February 15, 2018 2:24 PM GMT
if you cant beat em...join em.
Report crackle February 15, 2018 3:09 PM GMT
Excellent idea. The delay is outdated and only favours those who hoover up during events in races. Long overdue
Report Betfair Customer Services February 16, 2018 11:24 AM GMT
Thank you for your feedback – it really is appreciated.

Whilst we asked about the delay, there has clearly been two other topics, which we have replied to below:

1.    Can we get racing pictures in full screen?
a.    We have a contractual obligation set by our content providers around the maximum size the video can be. We are aware of other operators who are not following these requirements. As it was correctly pointed out, we do show fullscreen video for US racing, but that is because we receive US Racing pictures from a different provider to UK and Irish Racing.

2.    The latency of Live Video pictures needs to be reduced to make In-Play racing a more attractive betting proposition.
a.    A point that frustrates us here too. As you are already aware, the pictures don’t come directly from Betfair, they come from our providers. We see around a 2 second latency on our desktop feed for both RUK and ATR. Incidentally, our live video from ATR licenced tracks is consistently ahead of the ATR TV channel. We are continuously working with our providers to attempt to reduce the delay as much as possible, however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too. We are also looking at alternatives to pictures to improve the in-running experience.

We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.
Report Rider February 16, 2018 1:37 PM GMT
Betfair Customer Services, something I would like to know is this, LV feeds are produced independently   of ATR for their tracks (clearly they need to be), yet for RUK tracks the LV feeds are taken from the RUK feed (and doesnt short circuit them as with ATR), this must create an addition delay

Do you know why this happens? and have you tried to take a more direct route with RUK tracks?
Report Willie Shafter. February 16, 2018 2:04 PM GMT
We see around a 2 second latency on our desktop feed for both RUK and ATR.

Crazy
Report pablo-fanque February 16, 2018 2:15 PM GMT
We are continuously working with our providers to attempt to reduce the delay as much as possible

if Mr Smith can point a phone at on-course pictures and stream them to people at home with near zero delay , surely betfair the billion pound company in conjunction with RUK and ATR could come up with something similar but in a more professional way . we know it can be done , which is more frustrating for us the customers to see no improvements in picture speeds for 10 years or so .

however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too

in fairness , the delay makes no difference to your competitors and they do not provide in running betting in the same way as betfair do , your competitors only concern is to suspend betting on time so they do not take bets after a furlong or so has been run in a race .
Report DOUBLED February 16, 2018 3:00 PM GMT
. We are also looking at alternatives to pictures to improve the in-running experience.

We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.

Can you elaborate ? What alternatives ?
Report Willie Shafter. February 16, 2018 3:10 PM GMT
portman park going live in running.
Report madrigal February 16, 2018 3:54 PM GMT
Alternative will be someone shouting down a phone line and passed onto us 2 seconds later Crazy
Report TheFear February 16, 2018 4:00 PM GMT
They could have sold fast pictures for thousands to in-runners, now there is things like teamviewer so if one person buys them he can pass them onto others. Yet another reason THEY will deny the pics,,,,
Report gerard February 16, 2018 4:01 PM GMT
That satellite tracking data presumably, Doubled.
Report TheFear February 16, 2018 4:03 PM GMT
our live video from ATR licenced tracks is consistently ahead of the ATR TV channel.

Worrying if they think that is something to brag about too.
Report Willie Shafter. February 16, 2018 4:04 PM GMT
you're forgetting the pics arnt theirs to supply as live.
Report TheFear February 16, 2018 4:04 PM GMT
They could apply a bit of pressure though
Report Willie Shafter. February 16, 2018 4:27 PM GMT
the pics are owned by bookmakers who dont want to aid in running.
Report KiddyKid February 18, 2018 3:33 PM GMT
Yes I'm in favour of removal of the IP Bet Delay.  ASAP PLEASE
Report jamesdean February 18, 2018 3:36 PM GMT
Can you also stop settling win markets so quickly.

This is stopping most people betting on possible stewards or photo markets, losing Betfair commission.

Well aware there is a another stewards market but not everyone is and the liquidity matched on these is piitance compared
to what gets matched when the original win market is re opened for them. tia
Report dustybin February 18, 2018 3:39 PM GMT
Its funny how the narrative over the delay of pics gets attention when its out of bf's hands.
Yet PC was completely their creation and imo was the single biggest disincentive for people to use the exchange (the pic speed used to be much larger yet there was greater liquidity...and by liquidity Im not referring to the amount of money churned on the fave to offset PC)
Report Rider February 18, 2018 10:45 PM GMT
^Its funny how the narrative over the delay of pics gets attention when its out of bf's hands

BF "We are continuously working with our providers"
Report brassneck February 18, 2018 11:24 PM GMT
the delay in football is annoying because sportsbook post their up to date, betting in play before the goals are scored,this allows any punter to check any in play bet on sportsbook and then flick back to the exchange and get suspended sign when they click on the team that has scored proving how far advanced your in play is delayed.
sometimes sportsbook adjust their so called in play betting before a game has kicked off ,letting everyone know of an early goal.and when sportsbook are giving real big prices on certain games we all know what is going to happen before it does.
why can you not just run the games in real time and i mean real time,and if its your providers fault ,sack your provider and get a provider that is up to date ,because everyone knows what is going on and it only a matter of time before you lose every customer you have.
now there's real true from the heart feedback but as usual you will not listen ,just like when we all told you about paul cutter and his inovative ideas about improving the exchange.
Report brassneck February 18, 2018 11:43 PM GMT
and the fact that the OP suggests that you believe that you are the best just about says it all,have you ever tried betting on other sites "you may learn a thing or two,.
i think that is the main problem YOU BELIEVE /. YOU THINK YOU ARE THE BEST.well believe this"everyone knows what is going on"
i post all this to help not hinder,take the advice i give or carry on as usual,its your company,but please don't shoot the messenger and please don't try to pull the wool over your customers eyes "we know what is going on"thank you for allowing me to post this feedback.
Report Willie Shafter. February 19, 2018 11:05 AM GMT
i am the best...
Report mouse muldoon February 27, 2018 8:53 AM GMT
Today would be a good day to trial this, or some day this week with only the AW on.
Report madrigal February 27, 2018 10:46 AM GMT
I think BF should change the name to "Delayed Live Video".

Trade Description  ??
Report Willie Shafter. February 27, 2018 11:01 AM GMT
our pictures at track arnt actually live..
Report TheFear February 27, 2018 1:26 PM GMT
Just get on with it already Betfair
Report Rider February 27, 2018 1:47 PM GMT
fait accompli
Report Jack Bauer '24' February 27, 2018 2:06 PM GMT
What exactly are they waiting for? It would have been good to have the delay removed before Cheltenham to have our bets matched more efficiently with all the big fields there.
Report TheFear March 17, 2018 3:17 PM GMT
imo they should also put a TWO SECOND minimum before you can cancel a bet. Why should you be able to change your mind so quickly? It just ruins it for other people who click on a price that gets cancelled if there's even the slightest difference in the horse's chance.
Report TheFear March 17, 2018 3:19 PM GMT
i backed a horse on the place market it was 4.6 - which was on the ungenerous side but i thought i'd click anyway as i hoped it was idling. 4.6 layer cancelled as mine dropped FURTHER back and i got 1.33 Cry
Report mouse muldoon March 29, 2018 2:05 PM BST
Anything happening here?
Report TheFear March 29, 2018 2:18 PM BST
we woz caught in their net
Report mouse muldoon March 29, 2018 2:20 PM BST
Looks like we were.
Report TheFear April 10, 2018 7:47 PM BST
This is going well. Quietly dispensed with.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves April 11, 2018 7:33 PM BST
Maybe this comment on page 1 made them think again:

Willie Shafter. 09 Feb 18 19:59 Joined: 15 Jul 04 | Topic/replies: 8,794 | Blogger: Willie Shafter.'s blog
its xmassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


(I'm not arguing against the change: just wondering whether that kind of glee from that kind of winning punter might have been counter-productive.)
Report Willie Shafter. April 11, 2018 7:38 PM BST
it benefits those with bets in the system..not with those trying to take them.
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 11, 2018 8:04 PM BST
They are probably fine tuning and testing the algorithms on their bots before they remove the delay.
Report TheFear April 11, 2018 8:15 PM BST
one o one
Report Willie Shafter. April 11, 2018 8:21 PM BST
that was done mths ago jack..
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