U.S. Horse Racing
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
pls
Show More
my thoughts 
liquidity is soo poor because the dozzy people at betfair took away everyone's hope and dreams.
They say p/c charge only effects a few people, which may well be true, but they forgot that people gamble in the hope, or for that chance to win big! (proberly never happen for most people but thats why most people gamble) tell them if they do, betfair are going to keep half of it, the dream goes and they wont bet.
liquidity is soo poor because the dozzy people at betfair took away everyone's hope and dreams.
They say p/c charge only effects a few people, which may well be true, but they forgot that people gamble in the hope, or for that chance to win big! (proberly never happen for most people but thats why most people gamble) tell them if they do, betfair are going to keep half of it, the dream goes and they wont bet.
Take a few players away from UK horse racing/football etc and you probably wont notice any difference.
Take them from US racing and it makes a huge difference to liquidity.
Take them from US racing and it makes a huge difference to liquidity.
Fine point blue, the US market needs more players to provide liquidity else too many others drift away.
All quite simple really.
7) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.
Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of: •The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
•The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria: •Your account is in profit;
•Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
•You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge: •Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
•Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of: •The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
•The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80. You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets. You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50). However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
†Premium Charges at higher rates
Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account: •Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
•Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
•Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio
Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5%
60%
5% - 10%
50%
10%+
40%
Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.
If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.
The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.
For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.
***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
7) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.
Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of: •The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
•The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria: •Your account is in profit;
•Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
•You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge: •Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
•Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of: •The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
•The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80. You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets. You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50). However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
†Premium Charges at higher rates
Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account: •Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
•Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
•Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio
Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5%
60%
5% - 10%
50%
10%+
40%
Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.
If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.
The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.
For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.
It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.
***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited. Please note: the Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair betting exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.
That's simple as anything blue !! Strikes me it's more the concept and uncertainty that will deter punters. Could it be targetted at the big bookies who use BF to distort the markets but may backfire on BF by annoying a few others ?
whats all the complaining about. liquidity is just fine. some members have left forum since there was noone to adulate them for tipping 1/9 shots. theyre still around, to be sure.
afterall, if the pc people are making such money, theyre not going to go away are they (theres nowhere to go.) if youre making profit of 100 then x percent of 100 is also a profit!
afterall, if the pc people are making such money, theyre not going to go away are they (theres nowhere to go.) if youre making profit of 100 then x percent of 100 is also a profit!
keynes, you (& probably BF) have not taken into account the time and effort that punters put in to make those profits.
If you are working 60 hours a week to make that profit & suddenly you can only make half as much then do you bother putting in the effort. It is like an employer telling all employees they are only getting paid half as much from next week. Almost certain that not all the employees are going to bother to come to work next week.
If you are working 60 hours a week to make that profit & suddenly you can only make half as much then do you bother putting in the effort. It is like an employer telling all employees they are only getting paid half as much from next week. Almost certain that not all the employees are going to bother to come to work next week.
Some of the best gamblers in the world do(did) their thing on here. It is kind of like being the best at medicine, sales, dentistry,stocktrading etc. If gambling and Betfair are a viable entity then the very best on here should be paid commensurately to their skillbase.
cant believe whats happened to these markets, betfair greed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as if they dont make enough. theyve fvcked these u s markets up good & proper
as if they dont make enough. theyve fvcked these u s markets up good & proper
just another thought, why do they calculate figures on lifetime of the account, why not annually ?
also wondering how many people on US racing have won over 300k, unless you've won that much nothing changes does it?
Betfair, do a u-tube Q+A video......might clear up a few questions most people quite clearly dont seem to know the answers to! myself included
also wondering how many people on US racing have won over 300k, unless you've won that much nothing changes does it?
Betfair, do a u-tube Q+A video......might clear up a few questions most people quite clearly dont seem to know the answers to! myself included
they dont like these big winners taking the money away from betfair.
normal players bet again with their winnings. betfair like to see all the money regurgitated, so they can gain commission many times from the same money.
its pure greed, betfair are not happy helping all these people make big money. im off to bet dac the markets are definately improving, i think betfair will regret their greed
normal players bet again with their winnings. betfair like to see all the money regurgitated, so they can gain commission many times from the same money.
its pure greed, betfair are not happy helping all these people make big money. im off to bet dac the markets are definately improving, i think betfair will regret their greed
???? plenty of layers.....u can get 14/1 + for 4/1 shots
only thing thats changed is the liquidity on the fav's...... oh and all the guessers from the forum! lol
only thing thats changed is the liquidity on the fav's...... oh and all the guessers from the forum! lol
What's happened to US racing is that some people have lost their dough. That's my simple answer. Maybe one or two BIG players no longer take part but in general nothing much has changed. U still get ur 60k or so traded at certain meetings. The usual quiet meetings are still the same. The only thing that has died is the US forum.
I ask WHY is that? Were the sheep following certain shepherds??
I ask WHY is that? Were the sheep following certain shepherds??
I haven't been around these parts for a long time because there was nothing worth commenting on. This [b]>>>IS
I haven't been around these parts for a long time because there was nothing worth commenting on. This IS worth commenting on.
Kriskin and keynes have it right, the rest not so much I'm afraid. It is the forum that died on here, not the markets. Bluenose and co's incessant complaints are unfounded and totally off base. The liquidity conundrum is the same as it's always been. If the US market "competes" with a UK market, then liquidity is poor. If it doesn't, then liquidity is acceptable. In the latter case, liquidity appears to be the same as it has been in the months prior to the new premium charge getting announced. If it's any poorer now, it likely has a lot more to do with the state of our economy (people just have less disposable income to spend) than anything to do with the premium charges that affect only a handful of punters.
The forum died because it lost it's way.
Kriskin and keynes have it right, the rest not so much I'm afraid. It is the forum that died on here, not the markets. Bluenose and co's incessant complaints are unfounded and totally off base. The liquidity conundrum is the same as it's always been. If the US market "competes" with a UK market, then liquidity is poor. If it doesn't, then liquidity is acceptable. In the latter case, liquidity appears to be the same as it has been in the months prior to the new premium charge getting announced. If it's any poorer now, it likely has a lot more to do with the state of our economy (people just have less disposable income to spend) than anything to do with the premium charges that affect only a handful of punters.
The forum died because it lost it's way.
What's happened to US racing is that some people have lost their dough. That's my simple answer. Maybe one or two BIG players no longer take part but in general nothing much has changed. U still get ur 60k or so traded at certain meetings. The usual quiet meetings are still the same. The only thing that has died is the US forum.
I ask WHY is that? Were the sheep following certain shepherds??
perfect answer imo, nothing worthwhile for the shepherds to take advantage of.
I ask WHY is that? Were the sheep following certain shepherds??
perfect answer imo, nothing worthwhile for the shepherds to take advantage of.
Menelaus you obviously dont back horses in us racing markets because if you did you would know they have at least halved in liquidity. i have been betting these markets for a longtime & this premium charge has changed the liquidity for sure. so yet again you are wrong.
Boogie Cat, I would be more than happy to reconsider my assessment if you could post some data substantiating your thesis (ie, liquidity halved). You are absolutely right, I'm not on the US markets every evening but I do trade on here often enough to be able to offer more than just a casual opinion. From where I stand, liquidity is about the same as the months prior to the premium charge amendments. Now liquidity as of a few years ago, well, that's a different story. A story that has a lot more to do with Betfair allowing bots to complete take over these markets and bleed the average punter. Any RECENT observable changes in liquidity is the result of broader economic forces, not the new charges. You are missing the forest because of the trees....YET AGAIN.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539