Tennis
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So, if Novak doesn't start the tournament anyone who has bet on him gets their money back. What happens to people who have bet on say Medvedev? He's currently 3.0, do these odds stand or would there be something akin to a Rule 4?
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They have never applied a price reduction in outright tennis markets before, so bets should stand at odds matched.
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I can't imagine a Rule 4 on the excahnges. It's all caveat emptor. Betfair can't decide to do a generous refund on behalf of other layers imo.
But some bookies might do a justice payout and count him as a NR, but that wouldn't be allowed to invoke a Rule 4. |
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What if you lay Djokovich then cash out for a guaranteed profit ? Those cash out transactions are inextricably linked to the lay. Surely BF cannot void the lay bet without the associated bets to effect the profit ?
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If a player does not start a tournament then all bets on that player will be void. For the avoidance of doubt, qualifying is not considered part of the tournament.
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Not sure exactly how cash out works, does it back all, lay all, or just back the player you layed.
If it lays all other runners (the only method in which you can lose), it would have been throwing up more profit than it normally does, that would have been banked and taken if Djokovic played, so it would be unfair on the backers to void these bets now he isn't playing. It would be better to see real examples though. |
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Just that player.
Same as greening up: back to lay or lay to back. |
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ah, no one has lost from cash out then.
Although democrat seems to suggest otherwise. |
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obvs the odds would have to move in your favour to get that option
never used it personally - maybe there's an option to take a loss or red up? |
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Sorry if I gave that impression blank I was just seeking opinions re the rights and wrongs of cashing out on the basis of a bet that has been voided. As for your previous point as to how the 'cash out profit' is achieved that is entirely down to the Betfair software and should, in this circumstance, not adversely affect the punter. My point is void the cash out transactions inextricably linked to what becomes a void bet. In these situations where the market allows for bets to be voided perhaps Betfair should seriously consider delaying the 'cash out facility' till void bets do not apply.
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all bets on Novak will be voided & so therefore will any cash out
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Thanks Wes. Here's hoping.
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"Surely BF cannot void the lay bet without the associated bets to effect the profit ? "
of course they can happens in soccer with VAR all the time |
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A post from another forum.
Dylan711 wrote: ↑ Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:24 pm Hey guys just wanted your opinion on this. I had some lay bets on the Aus Open Outright market on Djokovic. The odds drifted out and gave me a positive cash out option. For whatever reason, after I cashed out, betfair laid all the other players for varying amounts to give me say +$100 for all players. Thought it was weird but it was effectively a cash out by laying all players. I then layed Novak again shortly after and I was immediately given a positive cash out and the same thing happened again (laid all other players). I did this multiple times but wasn’t able to continuously as some of the players had no liquidity so I had no cash option available. Just before Novak got booted (a couple hours ago) I had a completely green book for all players of about $1500. After Novak got voided, my book is now negative $8000 for every player. My balance is negative $3800. I have reached out to customer service but they are still discussing cash outs apparently for the market, what the **** that means. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, absolutely tilted off my head at the moment. Will have to take this to the Gaming Commission (I’m from Australia) if this doesn’t get sorted. |
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Ultimately, backers of other runners were taking into account the possibility of Novak being kicked out, they were asking for lesser odds than they otherwise would. So their bets shouldn't be voided, or they would have been in a situation in which they could never really win, Novak plays and they have negative value bets on other players, Novak doesn't play and bets are void which some are asking for. Layers are the opposite, nice profit if Novak plays, claim void if he doesn't.
Hopefully Betfair compensate anyone out of their own pocket. It's a relatively small amount, I think £2-3m matched on Novak and probably a tiny fraction of that through cash out. |
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I think there are crossed wires on here about whichy type of bets.
Different rules will apply to exchange and sportsbook. |
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Dylan711 owned himself pretty hard. There's no such thing as a free lunch Dylan!
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backs / lays of other runners should not have been affected by this
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if you had done your greening maually that would not have happened
no reason why cash out shouldbe different |
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I had a look at Betfair's twitter. He's not the only one. BF staff not being of much help, saying there were technical difficulties and they are looking into it.
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they prbbaly just cancelled alll "cash outs"
they will have to do it all manually instead novak bets canceelled other bets stay |
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they prbbaly just VOIDED alll "cash outs"
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Djokovic has been voided throughout on Sportsbook while all Exchange bets have been void on Djokovic in the Australian Open winner market. - Wayne
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"A post from another forum.Dylan711 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:24 pmHey guys just wanted your opinion on this.I had some lay bets on the Aus Open Outright market on Djokovic. The odds drifted out and gave me a positive cash out option. For whatever reason, after I cashed out, betfair laid all the other players for varying amounts to give me say +$100 for all players. Thought it was weird but it was effectively a cash out by laying all players.I then layed Novak again shortly after and I was immediately given a positive cash out and the same thing happened again (laid all other players). I did this multiple times but wasn’t able to continuously as some of the players had no liquidity so I had no cash option available. Just before Novak got booted (a couple hours ago) I had a completely green book for all players of about $1500. After Novak got voided, my book is now negative $8000 for every player. My balance is negative $3800. I have reached out to customer service but they are still discussing cash outs apparently for the market, what the **** that means. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, absolutely tilted off my head at the moment. Will have to take this to the Gaming Commission (I’m from Australia) if this doesn’t get sorted."
i assume this was because the lay side was over 100%? that was a schoolboy error considering the risk of a big player being voided also sounds like his lays of the other players were no voided, only his novak bets if that is the case betfair has done nothing wrong? |
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what's the difference? what's this "throughout" business?
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was the lay side ever over 100%?
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if the back side is under 100% or the lay side over 100% it is because something strange is going on, a major runner is missing, or something like the novak situation
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"There's no such thing as a free lunch Dylan!"
exactly |
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anyone who did that, on the back of aprofit trading novak, is now in big trouble
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on the back of aprofit trading novak = as a result of having a profit from trading novak
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I have some sympathy for them, because I have also made rookie errors at one point. I just don't understand how you can play around with such sums when you don't fully understand the market rules.
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The lay side was over 100% constantly for about 10 days straight. I said before the first court hearing that it looked like someone was laying all outcomes, the lay side would all flash with bets matched, suggesting someone had just layed everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new account from Russia or somewhere that was laying everyone, they would've took a healthy profit if Djokovic played but wont be heard from again now he's out.
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Betfair not faultless. They could've explained how their 'cash out' works and stopped people running up potentially big exposures that exceed their balance, they should have seen what was happening at the beginning too.
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on a market like this, where runners can be voided, maybe the exposure calculation should take that into account
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the other option would be to let all bets stand, whether the player plays or not
personally i would prefer this |
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dylan now owes betfair $3,800
the situation is a proble for betfair too how will they make him pay? |
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Yes 2 good options G.
The default exposure limit on UK accounts is £5k (or it was), looks like Dylan lost £4.2K, If he lost a little bit more and breached that limit, assuming he hasn't changed it, he would be in a better position to argue Betfair shouldn't have allowed the bets. |