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siwaadupa
15 Apr 13 10:02
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Date Joined: 16 Feb 12
| Topic/replies: 766 | Blogger: siwaadupa's blog
Its pissing me off. Another tournament with big gab to coourtsider. He paying 60%(money for BF), has 40%. But only those 2 are happy. Trader at home with 50%(premium charge-as well for Betfai) and using video stream is punished. Nice week coming.
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Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:16 AM BST
at houston last week the feed was a bit slower too, not as slow as today but still slower than usual
Report AyersRock April 16, 2013 2:16 AM BST
there were a lorry load of courtsiders arrested in madrid in the stands few years back so its not just one guy
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:42 AM BST
http://community.betfair.com/tennis/go/thread/view/94186/29429271/did-anybody-else-noticed#flvWelcomeHeader

hawkeye thread
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:46 AM BST
found this too, looks like AGT but not clear at all

http://www.geekstoy.com/forum/showthread.php?p=92360
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 9:25 AM BST
In my experience, the North American stuff is always worse than the vast majority of the rest of both ATP & WTA tours. 

It was ever thus, adapt or die.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 9:34 AM BST
AyersRock 16 Apr 13 02:16 
there were a lorry load of courtsiders arrested in madrid in the stands few years back so its not just one guy


no-one was arrested because no crime was being committed.

they were removed from the event for violating its T and Cs.

And as for all of this, it's the same complaints as always.

There is and always will be a small collection of traders whose strategy relies on being able to leave unmatched bets up which they must be able to cancel before completion of a point.

For as long as i've been on here it seems for the most part that they believe that this is the only way to make money in play, which is, of course, a complete fallacy.

There's a good line in the film Margin Call from Jeremy Irons character: "Be First. Be Smarter. Or Cheat". If you're trying to be first, or amongst the first, or use a time advantage, don't start bitching about being kicked off your flimsy pedestal without making any effort to do something about it.
Report the silverback April 16, 2013 10:07 AM BST
If correct, I would have thought the issue with the Hawkeye booth is quite serious. Opportunistic for sure but it opens serious integrity questions.

I've long suspected that insiders at TV companies take advantage of instant (?) feeds at the venue of various sporting event and can effectively trade courtside but in comfort, out of sight and with proper equipment.

I don't have a major problem with legitimate courtsiding but I do have a problem IF official partners or broadcasters are assisting people.

Can we rule out any possibility of TV companies deliberately exaggerating delays for trading reasons?

Why do the tennis authorities sell instant point by point feeds to betting companies (individuals too???? don't know) when they have so many issues with betting on the sport?

Why do the authorities allow streaming of low key events (challengers)when they are extremely wary of betting on these events?

And this super fast feed from Perform. Over time, have they slowed down the standard speed feed in order to be able to sell a faster speed feed?

And as, presumably, the official rights holders of online streaming, and if information on these forums on a faster feed is correct. Why do the authorities allow them to offer a faster service for an exclusive few when the only target audience for a faster feed is those trying to profit financially from it.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 10:22 AM BST
I wish people would stop complaining about this. There are plenty of chances to trade during a match.
Report the silverback April 16, 2013 10:25 AM BST
Definitely Jimmy. Couldn't possibly dispute that. With most players you can trade every point anyway on most events.

My only complaint is if official partners are knowingly aiding people looking to take advantage.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 10:28 AM BST
Well that is a different matter...I somehow doubt it.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 10:43 AM BST
well it managed to get you out the woodwork james, you've been very quiet of late.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 10:44 AM BST
as for you point silverback, there's a wealth of suspicion about gearhouse employees.

there was the case of some overheard comments some years back incriminating them.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 10:54 AM BST
Can't be arsed with this forum...it was FINNISHED years agoWink
Report lurka April 16, 2013 10:54 AM BST
the issue here is not that people have faster info, courtsiders will always have that and are at every event. the issue is that the delay is being beaten and that completely defeats the purpose of the delay. There are people who believe that there should be no delay at all and there is merit to that argument but if you are going to have a delay it it is there to protect people with normal info (and thus promote in-play trading, increasing liquidity and commissions for BF) and if it doesn't then it is farcical.

I wonder if traded volumes are massively lower at these events. We saw in Spain this season in football that they had to increase the delay in Spanish live matches from 8 to 9 secs as the feeds appear to have been slowed in certain Spanish stadia. People were afraid to trade in-play in spanish matches (eg massive, ridiculous hooving for barcelona last minute winner v celtic in nou camp).
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 10:58 AM BST
How are people allowed to beat the delay?
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 11:06 AM BST
Isn't Lurka's point that there are occasions where the fastest pictures available to the majority are insufficient to allow bets to be cancelled at the conclusion of the point?  That stops me from leaving money in match markets between points.  I don't think the suggestion is people are circumventing the delay.
Report the silverback April 16, 2013 11:08 AM BST
Hadn't heard that DStyle. Are they the production truck type people at venues, that's always where my main suspicion has been.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:16 AM BST
yes silverback.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:18 AM BST
Latalomne 16 Apr 13 11:06 
Isn't Lurka's point that there are occasions where the fastest pictures available to the majority are insufficient to allow bets to be cancelled at the conclusion of the point?  That stops me from leaving money in match markets between points.  I don't think the suggestion is people are circumventing the delay.


indeed lurka's point is not that people are beating the delay, but that it's not sufficient.

but the truth is that it is sufficient for someone or some group of people. and if you're not in the business of competing to be first, it's not important. if you are then it's your business to understand whether it is or not.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 11:20 AM BST
So it would be better there was no delay then at all?
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:21 AM BST
that's my opinion jimmy.

i'm not going to retype my arguments for that again, but i've posted it before.
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 11:21 AM BST
That's the crux of Lurka's point: either have no delay or make it long enough for [b]the majority[/b] to be able to cancel their bets if they wish.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:22 AM BST
Shanghai 5 years ago on the Sky feed a couple were berrating on air the lack of early doors liquidity (a thought I was having too myself, but obviously more agitating for them as they were 7-8 seconds in front of the masses and I).
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:23 AM BST
the delay disadvantages every price taker to the benefit of the price makers.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:25 AM BST
the problem latalomne, is that you must fairly define what the majority is.

and as i've just said, the longer the delay the better it is for those at the front of the queue and the worse it is for price takers.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:26 AM BST
It's different nowadays as they used to steam money in either way the point was won, but now you can tell 5 seconds quicker as the chumps who have a wall either side of their set price take away the one which becomes good value and leave up the one which comes up even worse value.
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 11:27 AM BST
My personal feeling is that, given the fact that BF is almost certainly milking 60% from the people with this huge advantage, there's no short-term reason for them to do so - even if it's to the detriment of their product in the long-term.

DStyle - BF is making pictures available for a lot of sports nowadays.  IMHO, if you are going to provide a delay (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't), it seems fair that BF should ensure that said delay tallies appropriately with those pictures.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:30 AM BST
What's the point in the delay if it doesn't tally.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:30 AM BST
i couldn't agree more.

providing the enetpulse score feed or the best live feeds and managing delays from that would be the best thing betfair could do to improve liquidity across the board.

BUT in the absence of their doing that, it becomes debatable at what point to decide what the delay should be.

The other solution would be to give people visibility of pending bets (i.e. those in the 5 second queue)

that way you could, if you were worried about being hoovered, see the dyson from a distance and dodge it, if you'll pardon my language.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:32 AM BST
RMB © 16 Apr 13 11:26 
It's different nowadays as they used to steam money in either way the point was won, but now you can tell 5 seconds quicker as the chumps who have a wall either side of their set price take away the one which becomes good value and leave up the one which comes up even worse value.


and they do that to take advantage of price takers and the delay.

i'll get matched at the **** out of date price if i submit a bet which hits the market when they've taken their price down but not had time to put the new one up.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:33 AM BST
and the longer the delay the more chance of that happening
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:34 AM BST
Yup. It's not nice. They're ****** price takers in real time but it's the gift that keeps giving.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:37 AM BST
of course there's a balance of arguments, and no doubt, each interested party will argue their case.

it's interesting reading California here we come's posts.

because to me, he's saying, he's either cleaning up being first, or he's behind and not having masses of joy.

and ultimately the competition for being first in the queue is presumably a big price for the winner but peanuts for being runner up.

looking at betfair's interest, i wouldn't surprise me, if as the OP suggests, that people or group of people, are paying betfair 60% for the privilege.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:38 AM BST
*big prize for the winner
Report lurka April 16, 2013 11:38 AM BST
if you look at the 3.65 site scoreboard (enetpulse) that seems to be 2 secs ahead of these slow pics
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:39 AM BST
They are effectively betting in real time. It just pains me to see price takers in mid-point as it's just donating money away. I'm personally happy with the delay as I'll only bet immediately post point and in between games. There's of course a small buffer where a retirement could screw me, but surely without any delay that buffer would increase (or am I being tired/dense?).
Report lurka April 16, 2013 11:40 AM BST
if you cancel your bets when you see the money disappear you can avoid being hoovered but you need to use trading software for this
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 11:41 AM BST
Exactly lurka, it's a wonderful real time score update for those using their noggin, but it's a complete trap to hoover money in real time against the price takers who can't resist punting just before a point is about to be played, or god forbid, during it.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 11:45 AM BST
i'm happy to go mid point if i know i'm still getting value if the point goes against me.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:02 PM BST
Fair enough. I'd need more details to understand the logic behind that (I'm not doubting there isn't, in fact I'm all but assured there is).
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 12:05 PM BST
Hanescu 40*-0 4-4 1.45 to lay.

to run through to the end of set.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:09 PM BST
End of the game you mean? Got you.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:11 PM BST
I do that too. My god forbid comment was aimed at the majority of points which involve far bigger swings. Wasn't it Troy who once boasted of a £15k lay at 1.4 when A Rod saved a MP vs Johansson.
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 12:13 PM BST
not necessarily even end of game.

"unimportant" points you could say.

but no, never a penny on "important points"
Report lurka April 16, 2013 12:15 PM BST
i have seen matches start for a game or two before the market has turned in-play, ie real time with no delay. Obviously a mistake by BF to allow it. If there was no delay then at a retirement the fastest guy would hoover everything down to 1.01 with no chance to cancel and make huge money. That already happens every match at match point but the market should suspend before there is even a chance to do that, ie less than 5 secs after MP and especially retirements. when the match is over, no more bets should be matched and BF should really reverse any bets at MP/retirement which defeat this.

The coursiders here are not beating the 5 sec delay really. If you watch the market or use 3.65 scoreboard you can tell who has won the point before the new price settles and cancel your bets. Normally you can do this from the standard live feed too but not in this tournament (or any of the masters). So, in short, if you are using the standard video feed to trade point to point you are going to get hoovered. You need to adapt and use 3.65 and watch the market as opposed to the video. Probably need to alter your trading strategy too for these events. Trading point to point is more difficult, so perhaps trade longer term.

But it appears that there is a group of people manipulating the speed of the feeds at these events and that is something that BF or the ATP should look into. If i were one of the people paying £700 a month for Perform fast pics I wouldn't be a happy camper but don't feel sorry at all for them, take your medicine!
Report DStyle April 16, 2013 12:22 PM BST
i have seen matches start for a game or two before the market has turned in-play, ie real time with no delay. Obviously a mistake by BF to allow it. If there was no delay then at a retirement the fastest guy would hoover everything down to 1.01 with no chance to cancel and make huge money. That already happens every match at match point but the market should suspend before there is even a chance to do that, ie less than 5 secs after MP and especially retirements. when the match is over, no more bets should be matched and BF should really reverse any bets at MP/retirement which defeat this.

given that betfair now make a very pretty 60% shaped penny out the hooverers can you really see them bringing an end to this revenue stream.
Report lurka April 16, 2013 12:23 PM BST
i can if overall liquidity is down so much that they make less money, but not really otherwise. No idea if that is the case here though
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:25 PM BST
There was a lot less awareness back in the day, and no internet streams then. You'd have high rollers (who liked to donate money away) spunking £10k+ bets onto the market watching Eurosport.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:26 PM BST
You get that now too.
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:27 PM BST
Of course, but to my mind, it's far less frequent.
Report lurka April 16, 2013 12:28 PM BST
It should be clear to BF which account(s) are doing this at these events, but it's been going on for a while now and they haven't stopped them, so you'd have to assume that they are not at a loss because of it
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:28 PM BST
Why would BF stop them? Are they doing anything illegal?
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:29 PM BST
They're not doing anything wrong lurka.
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 12:29 PM BST
Short-term, it suits them massively!  How many times would money need to be churned over to guarantee them a 60% take-out under the original commission structure?  Given that a few people do withdraw, they might never actually expect to see as much as 60% of every £ deposited.
Report lurka April 16, 2013 12:33 PM BST
i'm not saying it's illegal, I assume it's not but there may be different laws in certain countries. Whether it is illegal or not is irrelevant -  it is open to BF to suspend any account they want and if that account is causing lower liquidity/commissions overall then that is the only reason they would. The fact that they haven't despite it happening for quite a while now indicates that they not at a loss because of it
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:36 PM BST
Why would BF suspend any accounts which are legally making them money?
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:36 PM BST
The premium charge was bought in to take 60% of these chumps money along with the horse racing crew and no doubt the old La Liga crew. It's been going on since the beginning of time, it just took a while for BF to realise how they were going to get their lion share.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:38 PM BST
Do we know these chumps are paying PC?
Report Latalomne April 16, 2013 12:40 PM BST
If they're not, Jimmy, they're doing something drastically wrong!
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 12:40 PM BST
Maybe they're not. Aren't the Scandis on a flat rate charge to seed the tennis markets, so I doubt they are. The horse racing chumps certainly will be.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:42 PM BST
So many questions and so few answers...I love it!
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 12:45 PM BST
Adapt your strategies and stop worrying what others are doing...you'll do still do well.
Report lurka April 16, 2013 12:56 PM BST
jimmy why wouldn't they if overall commissions are down because in-play liquidity is down? Same reason a bookie will suspend or restrict you if you are costing them money. This account may make them money but if a lot of others aren't active as a result it could affect overall liquidity/commissions. It doesn't appear that their commissions are down here though, I think you can take that from the fact that they've done nothing about it. You can still make money but perhaps less than normal and using a different strategy. Adapt and change, agreed.
Report jimmy69 April 16, 2013 1:00 PM BST
I'm actually not too fussed about this as I don't do a whole lot of in play betting.
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 2:13 PM BST
RMB, Lurka what happened with the Perform stream inquiries at the end of last year? Interested to see just how quick it is
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:16 PM BST
Don, I didn't go any further with it. i'd be raging if i had for this event!
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 2:19 PM BST
Raging in what way?
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:19 PM BST
Don if you look at when the bets are cancelled (in a normal event with no big money courtsider, not this event), you can get a fair idea of how quick it is. about 1.5-2 secs quicker
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:20 PM BST
well i'd have paid £700 but wouldn't really have any advantage due to the big courtsider beating me every time
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:21 PM BST
coursider v perform pics for this event is like perform pics v normal feed for a normal event. £700 for nothing really
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 2:22 PM BST
True, you could still eak money out of it.  It just depends exactly how quick it is, someone mentioned many of the feeds are the same speed as sky but then how can they charge so much if that's the case
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:25 PM BST
bf standard video is 6.5 secs ahead of sky for tsonga match. i am on cable, may be quicker with a sky dish but not more than 1-2 secs i'd say. sky get their pics from perform too i'd imagine but have to buffer them a bit to ensure quality and then bounce them off a satellite
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 2:28 PM BST
Sky is just over 3 seconds behind stream
Report lurka April 16, 2013 2:29 PM BST
are u on a dish?
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 2:29 PM BST
Yep
Report AyersRock April 16, 2013 4:48 PM BST
no-one was arrested because no crime was being committed.

they were removed from the event for violating its T and Cs.



I know that thats why i said its not illegal, was making the point that there is more than one person courtsiding if u read my previous post Grin
Report Gerbs April 16, 2013 5:19 PM BST
DonNo1     16 Apr 13 14:13 
RMB, Lurka what happened with the Perform stream inquiries at the end of last year? Interested to see just how quick it is

  Lurka
well i'd have paid £700 but wouldn't really have any advantage due to the big courtsider beating me every time

_________
i seen the perform pics last year  they were 4.5secs ahead of sky
sky seems to be more delayed since then


they were 5k a month for 4 streams not 700

so the cheapest you could have had is 1250 a month between 4 of you

the darts were the best pics 4.5s ahead of sky betfair had a 3 secs delay
Report DonNo1 April 16, 2013 5:45 PM BST
How did you get to view them Gerbs if you don't mind me asking?
Report Gerbs April 16, 2013 6:58 PM BST
a 2 week trial
Report RMB © April 16, 2013 7:23 PM BST
I asked for a trial period Don to check it out (just 3 days) but they didn't get back to me. Seems they offered Gerbs one for 2 weeks! 1250pm is a lot to cover and that's post-PC.
Report lurka April 16, 2013 8:15 PM BST
the info i got from them was 7k a month for 10 user licence, so 700 each but you need to have 10 people willing to pay every month. that covers worldwide events. 6k/5k for europe/asian sports only or something like that.

TV will always be slower than standard live video. with perform pics you are getting the pics at the same time as bf (and sky i'd imagine) does, bf just has to rehost them thru its site, sky has to rebroadcast them, hence the delay
Report lurka April 16, 2013 8:20 PM BST
that was the cheapest per head, there was a cheaper option for 4-5 users too i think, prob about 1250 each
Report Gerbs April 16, 2013 9:20 PM BST
RMB

2 weeks was the normal trial that a few  got a couple of years ago it took me 6 months to get mine
Report Gerbs April 16, 2013 9:24 PM BST
correct lurka

but would be impossible to get  10 to pay every month up front and the fee has to come from one account

the 5k was for europe/ asian  but it also included all the tennis worldwide


i was asked to join a syndicate by someone who already had another 2 with him  he went to a lot of trouble setting up a lawyer to get a contract together for 4 of us to sign indicating we would pay it for 12 months minimum and 2 months up front
then he was informed that they would no longer be offering pictures to individuals that did not have a gambling licence and the other syndicates that were running would not be renewed when there contract was up as there was too much talk on forums about it
it was also mentioned that the syndicates that were already in place were not happy at them allowing anyone else to join

i have been told the old crew from the tennis forum who never post now since PC have got the pics  (and its 1.01 they were the ones squeeling about anyone else getting in on it )

most old timers can guess who they are


1.01 they still have them
Report DonNo1 April 17, 2013 12:30 AM BST
TV will always be slower than standard live video. with perform pics you are getting the pics at the same time as bf (and sky i'd imagine) does, bf just has to rehost them thru its site, sky has to rebroadcast them, hence the delay


I presume they get issued with two feeds, a live one and a delayed one and they rehost the delayed one.  Can't be much of a delay rehosting it and if you compare betfair with 365etc they're all the same speed.

I presume betfair has the world license but then why does 365 often stream events bf doesn't...
Report lurka April 17, 2013 1:49 PM BST
maybe don, but the fast pics are only about 1.5-2 secs ahead, no need to delay feed, that is enough and any further delay would make it like we are seeing at the masters events. i think the feed delay is the problem!
Report CaliforniaHereWeCome. April 17, 2013 8:06 PM BST
yep the problem is that the stream/feed is delayed at origin by purpose, so all the pics tv sat or pc are suffering of that delay.
Report baker1975 April 17, 2013 10:31 PM BST
ive never agreed with a 5 sec betting delay, it reduces liquidity and price discovery.
if there is  to be a delay it should be 2seconds max.
the price movements from those at courtside tell you which player has won the point, which is often faster than the live tv feed
Report lurka April 17, 2013 11:19 PM BST
i think no delay would massively decrease in-play liquidity in tennis, all the 1000s stacked at least 5 ticks either side of the current price would not be there with no delay, but i suppose most of that money never gets matched in any event
Report henok July 16, 2013 8:31 AM BST
good thread
Report henok July 16, 2013 8:36 AM BST
i just checked the website of perform and they dont have information on the price of a subscription to their video streaming and stat sites. does anyone know what the price is for video feed  product (watch and trade)?
Report lurka May 12, 2014 1:56 PM BST
never been worse than at Rome this week imo
Report Darlo Bantam May 14, 2014 4:45 PM BST
Liquidity seems shot to pieces at the moment too. Perhaps the two are linked.
Report Darlo Bantam May 14, 2014 4:49 PM BST
Has anyone compared the time delay between B365 and BF feeds? Because my hunch is that BF streams are getting slower - across a variety of sports.
Report lurka May 14, 2014 9:43 PM BST
have the two open for nadal Darlo and bf is v slightly ahead, but that may have to do with which one is opened earlier as there may be buffering after a few seconds, so don't think it's slower. There is no live vid link on the new site that i can see, so you have to go to old site. Might ask them to put a link in the yellow banner on new site
Report Darlo Bantam May 14, 2014 9:51 PM BST
I've asked. Three or four times. The first time was in April, and I've asked again today. They say - and have said before - that they're going to put it back. But it's still not there despite vanishing when the previous Cash Race started last month.
Report Darlo Bantam May 14, 2014 9:56 PM BST
And on an aside, the Nadal stream is way behind the market. The market perhaps reacts two shots before the end of a rally - maybe even more.
Report lurka May 14, 2014 11:32 PM BST
yes as usual for m1000 or perhaps even slower than ever as i said above, but 365 is the same
Report Darlo Bantam May 16, 2014 1:27 PM BST
And some streams are quicker than others. I've got the Dimi-Haas and CSN-Ivanovic streams both open and I can hear Eagle Eye Cherry being played on both. Thing is, one Eagle is a line ahead of the other Eagle.
Report DonNo1 May 19, 2014 10:41 AM BST
The recent WTA streams have been ahead of the ATP ones.

This week it looks like all the events are covered by the same production outfit.  Barely ahead of b365 scoreboard and over 4 second behind Mr Hoover's bot
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