Snooker
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05 May 19
10:06
Joined:
Date Joined:
16 Mar 11
For all the shocks, all the drama and all Mike Hallett's incessant drivel, we are exactly where we thought we'd be when the draw was made. We have our Cavalier from the bottom half of the draw, and our Roundhead from the top half.
We've seen this game before, and a lot of time has been wasted already trying to gauge the respective progress and decline of the two since 2011. In reality, very little has changed. Trump remains the unfinished article, and Higgins remains the game's most ferociously dogged competitor and its supreme matchplay expert.
We have all seen the signs this season that Trump has matured, that he has finally twigged that only diligence and respect for the game can see his talent's destiny fulfilled. Curiously these new found powers have deserted him here thus far - if anything there has been a regression at Sheffield, from his diabolically lucky first round win all the way to his reliance on the late arrival of the real Gary Wilson yesterday and Friday. Of course there have been highlights, there always are with Judd, but both of his six-frame blitzes were against known flakes quite capable of not turning up for a session. His shot selection, his reluctance to engage in safety duels, and his lazy imprecision when set have all returned - he has faced nobody so far who had any discernible right to beat him and - the Maguire match aside - he has made pretty hard work of it.
Higgins, lest we forget, has lost only two of his last fourteen matches at this venue. We know how, and we know why. I truly don't know where I stand on Higgins. I believe he is very lucky to still be allowed to earn a living as a snooker player, but I am in humbled awe of his grit and ability to perform under the sort of pressure which finds lesser competitors out. Time and again, we get to the third Sunday and there he is, a little greyer and pudgier of face than the last time we rocked up for the final of the game's sternest test. Wherever he stands in the circles of Dante's Inferno or on the list of all-time snooker greats, he is incredible.
So who wins?
Judd Trump wins. Today and tomorrow we are going to see Judd Trump how God intended when He dished out his talents. Every single shot considered, all options weighed up, safety embraced and executed. It's going to be brutal, cold, clinical. And it will be the last match of John Higgins' professional career.
We've seen this game before, and a lot of time has been wasted already trying to gauge the respective progress and decline of the two since 2011. In reality, very little has changed. Trump remains the unfinished article, and Higgins remains the game's most ferociously dogged competitor and its supreme matchplay expert.
We have all seen the signs this season that Trump has matured, that he has finally twigged that only diligence and respect for the game can see his talent's destiny fulfilled. Curiously these new found powers have deserted him here thus far - if anything there has been a regression at Sheffield, from his diabolically lucky first round win all the way to his reliance on the late arrival of the real Gary Wilson yesterday and Friday. Of course there have been highlights, there always are with Judd, but both of his six-frame blitzes were against known flakes quite capable of not turning up for a session. His shot selection, his reluctance to engage in safety duels, and his lazy imprecision when set have all returned - he has faced nobody so far who had any discernible right to beat him and - the Maguire match aside - he has made pretty hard work of it.
Higgins, lest we forget, has lost only two of his last fourteen matches at this venue. We know how, and we know why. I truly don't know where I stand on Higgins. I believe he is very lucky to still be allowed to earn a living as a snooker player, but I am in humbled awe of his grit and ability to perform under the sort of pressure which finds lesser competitors out. Time and again, we get to the third Sunday and there he is, a little greyer and pudgier of face than the last time we rocked up for the final of the game's sternest test. Wherever he stands in the circles of Dante's Inferno or on the list of all-time snooker greats, he is incredible.
So who wins?
Judd Trump wins. Today and tomorrow we are going to see Judd Trump how God intended when He dished out his talents. Every single shot considered, all options weighed up, safety embraced and executed. It's going to be brutal, cold, clinical. And it will be the last match of John Higgins' professional career.
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its nout short of a joke...…..nothing worse than this sort of snooker...………...never creates drama, cos the buckets are just so big and the players smash em to bits
Dave Lee Roth was never much of a singer to be fair, but he could dance.
Alun, you got a bargain.
Alun, you got a bargain.
May 6, 2019 -- 1:33PM, GRANTCKING wrote:
lmao wtf did angles just say
Sounded like it was inspired by Trainspotting. "Choose pots, choose shots......." WTF?!? 
Angles is the Robert 'Rabby' Burns of Snooker.
The man is a Poet Warrior in the classical sense.
The man is a Poet Warrior in the classical sense.
May 6, 2019 -- 1:35PM, Lufc86 wrote:
Closest lines will ever get to the final ha
"greatest finals of all time"
Do me a favour, it barely got into a final session and its not even dark outside
Fooling only the gullible with that one
Do me a favour, it barely got into a final session and its not even dark outside
Fooling only the gullible with that one
OOOOHHH ARGGGGHHH ITS FCUCKING OVER THANK GOD
I HATE IT I REALLY DO
DISGUSTING DISGRACE
I HATE IT I REALLY DO
DISGUSTING DISGRACE
They need actual broadcasters in the box to control the muggery of ex snooker player utterings.
Looks like Wayne Rooney wrote the winner speech erm erm erm
Congrats to Judd
But it wont go down as a memorable championship in my opinion, it was obvious who was winning it the moment Robertson went out
But it wont go down as a memorable championship in my opinion, it was obvious who was winning it the moment Robertson went out
Greatest final off all time wtf are you on about Hazel hang your head in shame
May 6, 2019 -- 1:40PM, SontaranStratagem wrote:
Congrats to Judd But it wont go down as a memorable championship in my opinion, it was obvious who was winning it the moment Robertson went out
have to agree
The best final I ever watched and it will always be was the Ebdon Hendry final
That was a final
That was a final
the 2 players who consistently showed good form for longest
Mrs Higgins looks a proper sort always laughing good on her
not the worlds I know, but the year that paul hunter beat ronnie 10-9 in the masters final...the best final I have ever witnessed or ever will witness
plenty of chinese players coming through who will push him says the nugget
pull the other 1 ffs
pull the other 1 ffs
possibly the greatest final ever..yeah,sure Hazel it was that close and nailbiting..the Beeb are full of it
very fine margins..had that dbl not gone in against Thep,wouldn't be here
but deserving of the title as many lesser players than he have won it
very fine margins..had that dbl not gone in against Thep,wouldn't be here
but deserving of the title as many lesser players than he have won it
Higgins-Reardon 1982 was my fave, and a great standard match.
Session 2 on the Saturday night saw Higgins at his awesome best, coming from 3-5 to 9-7.
Session 2 on the Saturday night saw Higgins at his awesome best, coming from 3-5 to 9-7.
Said the same when Ronnie beat Ali Carter though
A final like that isn't the best ever, people will always talk about the Dennis Davis final and the Ebdon Hendry final as well, the year Doherty ended Hendrys streak will also be remembered
This was a final played on a pool table ffs
A final like that isn't the best ever, people will always talk about the Dennis Davis final and the Ebdon Hendry final as well, the year Doherty ended Hendrys streak will also be remembered
This was a final played on a pool table ffs
May 6, 2019 -- 1:45PM, GRANTCKING wrote:
jesus it feels like forever ago cahill beat ronnie!
cahill v mags probably the match of the tournament imo
White Hendry 17-18 with White missing a straight forward pot that probably would have given him the title
Loads you can name that way above some of the cr*p we've witnessed in the past 10 years
Loads you can name that way above some of the cr*p we've witnessed in the past 10 years
for entertainment I mean, I don't for "the standard"
The Hurricane was the top man used to play for 20 quid in Manchester for his bevvy 
give me a Higgins gilbert match any day over that crap. it was a potters table tailor made for trump, its the same table he won the masters on, if I was Higgins I would want a rematch on the snooker shoot out table, see if 11 tons get knocked in on that
remember back to R1, teppy went into the reds in the winona, smashed them everywhere and didnt finish on a colour, lands on a colour and dudd isnt world champion! crazy when u think about it
Trump was lucky to get passed R1 for sure
If Ding wasn't such a waste of space he'd have probably been out in R2 as well
Maguire just couldn't be bothered
Yes he was the best after that but he was lucky in the early rounds
If Ding wasn't such a waste of space he'd have probably been out in R2 as well
Maguire just couldn't be bothered
Yes he was the best after that but he was lucky in the early rounds
2020 JT 3/1 RO 6/1 NR 7/1 MS 9/1 KW 16/1 Over 200 tons 1/1000
Dave Gilberts party still in full swing................
well my predicted final of Trump v Wilson was 50% correct. the new breed are taking over
May 6, 2019 -- 2:05PM, Latalomne wrote:
Anyway, when's the season start?
its obvious its a table judd loves, last time he played on that table he beat Ronnie at the masters and killed that final off by taking a 7-1 lead
May 6, 2019 -- 2:14PM, GRANTCKING wrote:
double spaced
First time in 17 days? Clearly fatigued!
^^^^^^^^^
Did not know that, very interesting davy. Cant have been any harm anyway. Very pleased for trump, been a long time coming for the lad. You can discount the potting and the centuries cos of pockets, cloths etc, but the safety was from a different planet. Higgins seemed to hit a wall second session yesterday, long potting went for a burton on him, but he was just outclassed in all departments, the ones you'd have made him long odds on to hold sway in. Cant argue with that really.
BBC make you nauseous with their best of all time shyte. Used to be able to stomach irvine, but she was particularly out of control this year. Horrid stuff.
Did not know that, very interesting davy. Cant have been any harm anyway. Very pleased for trump, been a long time coming for the lad. You can discount the potting and the centuries cos of pockets, cloths etc, but the safety was from a different planet. Higgins seemed to hit a wall second session yesterday, long potting went for a burton on him, but he was just outclassed in all departments, the ones you'd have made him long odds on to hold sway in. Cant argue with that really.
BBC make you nauseous with their best of all time shyte. Used to be able to stomach irvine, but she was particularly out of control this year. Horrid stuff.
First time in 17 days? Clearly fatigued!
I think it was the 1st time aswell!
I think it was the 1st time aswell!
im missing it already 
roll on riga in july for the best of 7 filth fest
roll on riga in july for the best of 7 filth fest
new ssn kicks off in around a month or so...won't need the spider or the swan neck, its the long rest 
I thought the beeb coverage was shocking, headed by that dope Hazel and her band of nodding dogs, Hendry obviously excluded because he is ten classes ahead of pure excrement.
Movies with Ali fcking plumbs, womens champions league watched by no one, even the table cleaners at the crucible have a bigger crowd watching than that utter shyte. Then there's the channel switching nonsense on Saturdays, come on, surely you plonkers can work out something by now. Red button should be both tables at all times you money wasting cretins. Womens champions league had wall to wall coverage on ten channels. World snooker championships treated like some lowly tin pot event, yet money is no object on certain other sports.
Apart from that, great to see Judd win in style, superb stuff. Well played sir.
Movies with Ali fcking plumbs, womens champions league watched by no one, even the table cleaners at the crucible have a bigger crowd watching than that utter shyte. Then there's the channel switching nonsense on Saturdays, come on, surely you plonkers can work out something by now. Red button should be both tables at all times you money wasting cretins. Womens champions league had wall to wall coverage on ten channels. World snooker championships treated like some lowly tin pot event, yet money is no object on certain other sports.
Apart from that, great to see Judd win in style, superb stuff. Well played sir.
I remember when they used to have 8 different red button options for Wimbledon. Does that even get that now?
yeh they still do that for SW19, they just dont give a feck about the snooker
does my head in when its not even on a proper channel, on the red button its not in HD and theres only 1 table shown, it really is disgraceful, I cant stand the eurosport comms, johnson and hallet mainly but atleast they show the game in HD
How the hell did Irvine get the job anyway . Bring back David Icke i say .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH-lzxUOhOM
final session of the 2011 final
key takeaways (other than judd's hair)
look at the amount of chalk on the table as opposed to yesterday & sunday
and that pink that judd missed in the final frame when on 60...would have been gobbled in 2019
missed pots create drama not fkin wall to wall bucket tons
final session of the 2011 final
key takeaways (other than judd's hair
)look at the amount of chalk on the table as opposed to yesterday & sunday
and that pink that judd missed in the final frame when on 60...would have been gobbled in 2019
missed pots create drama not fkin wall to wall bucket tons
once that pack was busted open it was game over and it was a boring final, not what I wanted to see at all, john to his credit quickly realised he was playing on a bucket table and his reaction after breaking off yesterday said it all, it was one of the games in the afternoon session where he broke off a fraction to thick and he turned away from his break off knowing that's prob game over.
judd got over the line with no probs at all as he could just freeroll his way to the winning line, with potting his strong side of his game he was always going to outpot higgns on that bucket table.
one things for sure, if they would of used the table from the snooker shoot-out, it would of been a far more entertaining match to watch, far fewer century breaks and far more games would of come down to some tactical play towards the end of the frames.
glad its all over
judd got over the line with no probs at all as he could just freeroll his way to the winning line, with potting his strong side of his game he was always going to outpot higgns on that bucket table.
one things for sure, if they would of used the table from the snooker shoot-out, it would of been a far more entertaining match to watch, far fewer century breaks and far more games would of come down to some tactical play towards the end of the frames.
glad its all over
Will be the same every year now,get used to it won't be worth watching..
Will be the same every year now,get used to it won't be worth watching..
As we know the BBC's sole criteria for quality or an increase in the overall standard is the number of century breaks. If the number of centuries made next year is 80 - will they be telling us that the standard is 20% worse than this year? No, it will then be the number of dramatic deciding frame finishes, or the level of safety play will then somehow be demonstrated to be at an all time record standard.
The pockets took a lot of the enjoyment out of the tournament for me, and for most on here judging by the posts during and after the final. M.Gould's pot down the left hand black rail, which hit the cushion almost 2 feet from the pocket, and dropped, on the opening morning set an ominous tone. But, despite wanting J.Higgins to win the final at the start, I was happy in the end that J.Trump won (albeit on an even more horrendous table). The game badly needs a younger player at the summit of the game to take over from the old guard. He emphatically answered the question marks we had against him pre-tournament, and now he really does have a platform from which he can dominate. I'm not sure I'd take 4/1 for next year's championship though...well not at this stage anyway.
The pockets took a lot of the enjoyment out of the tournament for me, and for most on here judging by the posts during and after the final. M.Gould's pot down the left hand black rail, which hit the cushion almost 2 feet from the pocket, and dropped, on the opening morning set an ominous tone. But, despite wanting J.Higgins to win the final at the start, I was happy in the end that J.Trump won (albeit on an even more horrendous table). The game badly needs a younger player at the summit of the game to take over from the old guard. He emphatically answered the question marks we had against him pre-tournament, and now he really does have a platform from which he can dominate. I'm not sure I'd take 4/1 for next year's championship though...well not at this stage anyway.
Could not agree more gobe, i definitely felt a peculiar emptiness even before this tournament was over. It just feels to me they're so obsessed with building up a new audience that the traditional fans like us can just go and hump it. Every century felt like another punch in the stomach, it just devalues the game so much if it becomes that easy. It really is sickening.
Take a look at this comment from another forum i frequent, its not a snooker forum, just a general forum that has a world championship thread. They're all falling over themselves, creaming at the standard of the players. I tried to make a few what i consider educated comments, but am just p!ssing against the wind, they aint having none of it.
Plus if you look at the amount of century breaks scored:
https://cuetracker.net/statistics/ce...-made/all-time
Alex Higgins only has 86
Terry Griffiths has the same
Cliff Thorburn has 91
Yet the other two were hardly even called a light breeze! They were master tacticians.... etc
Part of the reason Higgins got so few century breaks was because he was a terrible positional player. The mad recovery shots look great in the highlights though.
I've given up arguing about it. By the logic hearn expects people to follow, Marco Fu has 5 times as many career centuries as Alex so must evidently be five times a greater player. That's the level you're dealing with nowadays. I truly despair.
Take a look at this comment from another forum i frequent, its not a snooker forum, just a general forum that has a world championship thread. They're all falling over themselves, creaming at the standard of the players. I tried to make a few what i consider educated comments, but am just p!ssing against the wind, they aint having none of it.
Plus if you look at the amount of century breaks scored:
https://cuetracker.net/statistics/ce...-made/all-time
Alex Higgins only has 86
Terry Griffiths has the same
Cliff Thorburn has 91
Yet the other two were hardly even called a light breeze! They were master tacticians.... etc
Part of the reason Higgins got so few century breaks was because he was a terrible positional player. The mad recovery shots look great in the highlights though.
I've given up arguing about it. By the logic hearn expects people to follow, Marco Fu has 5 times as many career centuries as Alex so must evidently be five times a greater player. That's the level you're dealing with nowadays. I truly despair.
Why has there not been a maximum since 2012?
I can tell you. The real cue ball control artists are all past it, or retired.
With these tables the reward for pinpoint position is lessened, as they can be potted from out of position most of the time into the 6 abysses.
I can tell you. The real cue ball control artists are all past it, or retired.
With these tables the reward for pinpoint position is lessened, as they can be potted from out of position most of the time into the 6 abysses.
Yes there have been plenty elsewhere, but under the Crucible pressure not a one in 7 years.
Fits in with the bottling generation.
Fits in with the bottling generation.
I felt the same, and in the end I was glad it was over. It really pains me to hear ex World Champions like S.Davis and J.Parrott belittling their own generation's achievements (their own included). But, unfortunately, things are not going to change back. Almost every session is now full at The Crucible, and they are desperate for a younger audience, knowing people like us will still come back for more. I mean - what else would we want to be doing for a full month once the qualifiers start!!
I must have watched a different match to you lot!
Big pockets wouldn't explain the safety play. There was some very good stuff throughout the whole championship.
I can't see why snooker players aren't better now than they used to be, after all there are more of them, with more practice time, in the old days they were amateurs.
Darts players are better now too, not just because of thinner wires. It's because the wages are better and people who might have given up a year or two in, carry on longer and improve all the time.
Personally I prefer tactical play with fewer centuries and more snookers, but the habit of blaming the BBC (who, I agree, are pretty awful overall) for everything in the world we don't like is getting a bit extensive.
Big pockets wouldn't explain the safety play. There was some very good stuff throughout the whole championship.
I can't see why snooker players aren't better now than they used to be, after all there are more of them, with more practice time, in the old days they were amateurs.
Darts players are better now too, not just because of thinner wires. It's because the wages are better and people who might have given up a year or two in, carry on longer and improve all the time.
Personally I prefer tactical play with fewer centuries and more snookers, but the habit of blaming the BBC (who, I agree, are pretty awful overall) for everything in the world we don't like is getting a bit extensive.
Hard to imagine how many tons a peak Hendry would make on these table.
I don't think that, in the last frame of the final, either playrer potted the black, Can anyone remember a frame being won in the World Champonship withour potting at least one black (excluding forfeiting frames of course). I can't think of one.
I can't remember a specific occurrence, but I think I'd be prepared to bet a decent sum that's there have been several. It's a lot more common than you think, I know I've made several tons on pinks and/or blues alone. There are more tons now of course, but given the way the break disperses the balls more on these modern cloths there's are probably more occasions when the black is nudged towards its rail as well.
It's a feature of Trump's game funnily enough that he has almost taken the positional imperative on the blue ball out of the equation. Unless he is bang straight, the purity of his strike means he can get anywhere on the table to a degree I think unprecedented.
It's a feature of Trump's game funnily enough that he has almost taken the positional imperative on the blue ball out of the equation. Unless he is bang straight, the purity of his strike means he can get anywhere on the table to a degree I think unprecedented.
I think there's truth in what Studyform says on the subject of progress through professionalism, but the questions for the Purist go beyond the darts analogy because dart players are 100% playing the same game that dart players have always played. Snooker - through heated tables, faster baize, lighter composites, and more generous bags - is moving the board nearer.
Like Lasix, Bute and a misplaced obsession with speedy genes in Horse Racing, the question is: Are we improving the breed?
All the evidence so far suggests not: The Majors are still being won by old men forged in less forgiving conditions. Young players weaned on easy tables have no back-up bank of knowledge when the pressure is on, there are many times fewer backroom money matches to gather their craft - all they have is the skill to pot balls. If Trump proceeds to win the next few World Championships and the class of 92 retire, he may be the last World Champion to learn the intangibles only players of Higgins' or Williams' calibrate can teach.
Like Lasix, Bute and a misplaced obsession with speedy genes in Horse Racing, the question is: Are we improving the breed?
All the evidence so far suggests not: The Majors are still being won by old men forged in less forgiving conditions. Young players weaned on easy tables have no back-up bank of knowledge when the pressure is on, there are many times fewer backroom money matches to gather their craft - all they have is the skill to pot balls. If Trump proceeds to win the next few World Championships and the class of 92 retire, he may be the last World Champion to learn the intangibles only players of Higgins' or Williams' calibrate can teach.
7th may...gobelins 8.46pm, gj 9.00pm & BTW 9.01pm
spot on imo
spot on imo
I think the most important point is being missed here. Its not about comparing eras, or arguing about who is the greatest player of all time or how greater the standard is now compared to 10/20/30 years ago. The point is that you have two competing narratives that dont quite square, the bbc telling us that everything is great, the players now are the best ever, making the game look easy because they all have so much talent, while anyone following the game the past number of years knows it is in decline at grassroots level in the UK, no wave of young talent coming through and the average age of top professoinals and tournament winners rising steadily for at least the last decade.
Thats the elephant in the room the bbc ignore and we put more credence in what they say because of its close connection to the powers that be. The more they convince themselves that everything is super great, getting better all the time, lets throw some more prizemoney at the top pros to make it all even better, the less chance there is of the real issues in the game being acknowledged, let alone dealt with. Imo.
Thats the elephant in the room the bbc ignore and we put more credence in what they say because of its close connection to the powers that be. The more they convince themselves that everything is super great, getting better all the time, lets throw some more prizemoney at the top pros to make it all even better, the less chance there is of the real issues in the game being acknowledged, let alone dealt with. Imo.
Its at the stage now where not even the fathers of kids in the UK play snooker. The spectators are made up of non playing wind breakers.
There is going to be a black hole of nothingness in the near future. As I've said before a top 16 made up of Oriental omni mugs.
Judd, Kyren etc will easily hang on into their 40s. Ronnie can play until 50.
There is going to be a black hole of nothingness in the near future. As I've said before a top 16 made up of Oriental omni mugs.
Judd, Kyren etc will easily hang on into their 40s. Ronnie can play until 50.
STUDYFORM - the only criticism of the BBC from what I've read on here (which I completely agree with) is due to their continual insistence on the standard getting better and better, without any proper discussion. And, when it is constantly repeated by ex-World champions it gives this viewpoint the highest possible platform without any dissenting voices. The number of century breaks must be constantly rising for a reason - so the question that needs to be asked is - what is the reason? Most people on here do not believe players are getting better and better, but believe the answer is pockets that now accept balls that would never have dropped even a few years ago. There used to be players considered specialist middle pocket potters (J.Wattana being one of the best) as given a choice you would never leave yourself a pot to a middle pocket if there was an alternative - but now players routinely leave themselves pots to the middles as they are far, far, easier (even allowing for the general lack of a nap these days).
10/11 the pair the J.Higgins of 15 years ago v the J.Higgins (who has reached the last 3 World finals, and is world number 5) of now.
10/11 the pair the J.Higgins of 15 years ago v the J.Higgins (who has reached the last 3 World finals, and is world number 5) of now.
The biggest joke was when the object ball hung on the pocket and dropped after a second which you used to see once a season as it would be a shock,this years worlds alone there mustv'e been 20 and i missed a lot of it.The whole thing was a complete farce,the tables are basically like snooker club tables but with better cloths so you can play absolute anything and pinch an angle on nearly every shot..
there's plenty of archive footage available on youtube
go back even 5-6 years ago & you should be able to notice a big difference between how accepting the pockets were/are now
go back even 5-6 years ago & you should be able to notice a big difference between how accepting the pockets were/are now
They've always messed with pockets, though, havent they? They talk about templates, standards and all that jazz, but they've been manipulated for decades. I dont know details but they definitely did something to tighten them up in the 90s, whether that was due to the likes of Hendry and the younger generation of the class of 92 emerging, i'm not sure, but i do recall Davis referring to that on the bbc a couple of years back on the assumption, iirc, that they hadnt subsequently been tampered with. Ronnie needs to start talking about this subject a lot more because at the very least, we deserve some transparency on it.
make goal posts wider and theres going to be more goals, make pockets bigger and theres going to be more 100 breaks, yet the likes of taylor and co seems to think its down to the standard being so high, barry needs to get these pockets sorted because its snooker I want to watch, not pool.
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