What is a forward pass (not a wind up)

Have a look at this video and it may explain it a bit (although it could confuse you even more ! )
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

Technically it's all about the position / direction of the motion of the hands when the ball is released but that is probably still a bit of an ambiguous rule .

Thanks, that was very helpful. Cleared up what I wanted to know exactly. (Ref got it wrong today then )

*The ref comment is just a side note, I wanted to make sure I understood the rule for the rest of the cup

You're welcome . The silly thing about the 'No Try' today in the Wales v Italy match is that if the passer of the ball hadn't been tackled and his momentum had continued , i'm fairly sure the try would have been awarded .

Cool. That one was explained nicely in the video too, nice to understand why mistakes are made as well as what I'm actually watching :D

Technically it's all about the position / direction of the motion of the hands when the ball is released but that is probably still a bit of an ambiguous rule

that sums it up imo. if the hands are motioning forward then 99.9999999% chance the ball is. i wish someone had told the tmo in the toulon v glasgow game that before he awarded the 2nd try.

On a technical note , the best way to establish a forward pass would be using satellite co-ordinates reference a grid defined by the pitch markings ( which can be assumed to be straight ) . Nearly every match I see  nowadays is full of passes which are at best "flat" , and often look forward .  I think the refs do not blow up a lot of forward passes as they dont want to bring the game into disrepute  , the rugby "culture" has regressed to a point where coaches encourage "flat" passes in an attempt to gain advantage . 

Soccer has a dopey offside rule which is virtually impossible to police properly , particularly at lower levels where the luxury of linesmen is often absent ( or partial , one from each side ) . There must be a better way to structure play than invisible lines related to  "when the ball is played" .

a  flat or even a backward pass with a player running at speed will end up ahead of the point it is passed at. it's a physics thing so grids would be pointless. trust me the hands are the best guide.

By definition then is that not a forward pass , northanlite ?

Can understand the forward momentum thing OK , but in absolute terms is it nearly impossible to deliver a non forward pass if the giver and receiver are at speed ?

As I remember being taught how to pass a ball , you turned facing backwards slightly before delivering the ball , and forward passes then were few and far between .  Reckon the coaching nowadays does not teach it the same way we learnt . Passing backwards became  instinctive between players as its a 2 way thing , but reckon the game has changed .

as long as the ball leaves your hands travelling behind your position on the pitch the pass is legal. where it ends up is really not the point as there is nothing one can do about the laws of physics.
i don't know why this is so difficult for some folk to understand

i just googled a bit and didn't take long to find a better explanation than i came up with (see link below)
relative velocity, wish i had known that term.
would have made me sound dead clever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

It was a shame we couldn't hear the TMO in the Wales game as we had done in the England one.  It is such a benefit to be talked through the decision process.

The sooner this feature comes in to all live games across both codes the better.  I am convinced TMOs will make far less errors knowing they have to explain things out loud to a live audience.

that's a very interesting video, north

so in union (trusting someone else's cut and paste job):

LAW 12, DEFINITION
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead-ball line.

EXCEPTION CHARGE DOWN.
If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.

DEFINITION OF THROW FORWARD.
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

OUTCOME OF A THROW FORWARD
(a) Unintentional knock-on or throw forward. A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement.

(b) Unintentional knock-on or throw forward at a lineout. A scrum is awarded 15 metres from the touchline.

(c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

(d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than five metres from the touchline.

(e) Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward. Sanction: Penalty kick. A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

two things (hence the bold bits) occur to me here:

1) no mention of momentum/or direction of hand movement at all and the reference to the opposition's dead ball line seems to contradict consideration of them.
2) don't remember ever seeing a forward pass ruled intentional. difficult to believe that they are all unintentional.

in league i can find no reference to the opposition's dead ball line, no clear reference to waht cosntitutes a froward pass (as if it is self-evident). and then there's the guidance that:

Direction of Pass 1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not
passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.

http://www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/rules/official_laws/10_knockon_and_forward_pass

Once the laws of physics enter the debate a lot of questions arise , relative velocity , direction of hands at pass time , effect of momentum on ultimate destination of ball , effect of wind . Watching rugby in the "old days" in passing movements the "line"  was definitely strung out in a backward direction for the good reason of effecting backward passing .  Not sure the modern players string out like that any more .

As I recall the ultimate reason for penalising a forward pass was that the player receiving the pass was technically offside .  Maybe that has changed in the wording or whatever , but that is implanted in my mind .

jezuz kelly you would argue that black is actually a slightly lighter shade than we think it is.
it is not even slightly ambiguous, if one sends the ball off on its travels behind the point that one is present at then the pass cannot be deemed forward.
not a difficult concept surely.
once the laws of physics enter the debate on a subject defined by the laws of physics then surely no questions arise at all.

Wasn't aware that I was arguing , northanlite , but if that floats your boat , feel free . Arguing and open debate are different in my book .

Its the concept of whether passing is forward we are debating , and from comments and observations expressed in the thread it appears that technically most passes go forward relative to fixed co-ordinates due to relative velocity etc .  Whether that makes the old concepts of "passing backwards" obselete or irrelevant is my debate . My comments have been based on pure visual memory recall , as always I only believe what I see ( or think I see).

The modern concept of flat passing spoils a lot of rugby for me , as I find myself questioning nearly every try I see scored these days in respect of a forward pass possibility . That certainly was seldom the case in the old days .

I think once you get your head round how the ball initially leaves the hands, there is a lot less questioning.

Agree with that vis , which presumably is why TMO reviews consistently concentrate on the "position" of the hands ref the passer . But from a spectators point of view ( and a betting in running point of view) , particularly if the score is against you , the forward pass becomes increasingly a contentious issue . Before TMO technology etc , everyone just accepted ref and linesmen decisions a la offside decisions in soccer . But suppose times and ethos have changed  , sometimes for the better , guess rugby also has to accept that .

you don't half waffle on, Kelly.

I never understand the point you are trying to make.  I am not sure you do yourself.  You go round the houses and usually end up with a nothing remark like...i guess that's the way the game is going...Yawn

We understand ozy . Insightful as always .  No-one else to snipe at today ?

Agreed Kelly.  Most followers were brought up watching and/or playing the game where "forwards" would be judged mainly using the lines and mower markings on the pitch.  It takes a long time to adjust to that.  What we want is consistency from TMOs and hopefully commentators and pundits - some of whom still don't get the concept either.  But then again we still hear "downward pressure" mentioned far to often as well when a try scoring play is reviewed.

so the refereeing establishment in union has come up with an intepretation which contradicts the irb laws (which haven't altered from what vis says most followers were brought up with). is this correct?

seems a bit like the modern contact without getting the ball in a tackle => foul interpretation in football.

I think it's fair to say that union referees have been interpreting forward passes in a way that contradicts law 12 for as long as anyone can remember. If they didn't then virtually any pass delivered by a player running at speed would be illegal. With these passes now being judged by TMO a new directive relating to the direction of the hands was required. The sensible thing now would be to change the law though I guess it will be somewhat embarrassing to admit that refs have never applied it in the first place.

On a point of clarification , and as queried before , does a forward pass purely involve the ball , or is it related to the intended recipient of the pass being technically offside ?

The only game rules I have regularly to hand are the rules of golf which sit on my desk and are often referenced particularly when certain players are involved in "situations" .  Apart from scrummaging ( a mystery to a lot of observers ) the rules of rugby always seemed pretty transparent and sensible and not necessarily bedtime reading . Technology has possibly contributed to a need for further investigations / review .

Fingers on release of ball point back - pass is back, fingers on release point forward pass is forward.
Next......

It doesn't really matter what the Laws say, Union or League, as the application of said Laws is random.

a movement refs choose to ignore time after time

same as any other rule really. if new zealand does it then it is ok but everyone else has to abide by the basic laws of the game.
hth