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1.01 Layer
26 Sep 13 17:35
Joined:
Date Joined: 23 Aug 03
| Topic/replies: 4,835 | Blogger: 1.01 Layer's blog
I and others have heard this today from BF towers.  I gather it's to run until June of next year. Emails should be sent to PC payers in the next day or two.

I just hope it does more than only attract back the big fish.
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Report RugbyMan September 26, 2013 5:43 PM BST
Good news I assume, is there any reason for this move?

Too late for me though, if this came in in 2009 I would be a lot richer. Spent the last 4 years building embankments against Betfair's stealth taxing.
Report 1.01 Layer September 26, 2013 5:53 PM BST
The only reason I can assume RM is that their short termism is hitting them where it hurts most and Rugby is a sport that has suffered in liquidity terms more than most.

I wonder too, if it's not just too late to arrest the decline.  Still, I'd rather keep 95% of not a lot than 50% Grin
Report RugbyMan September 26, 2013 6:07 PM BST
Wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. It certainly feels like overall liquidity is way down on 2009 levels and I know from experience that the PCs were more of a problem for legitimate punters than bot-users or whoever they were supposed to be aimed at.
Report The real Moaner September 26, 2013 6:08 PM BST
Nice of them to include Rugby League...
Report Latalomne September 26, 2013 6:11 PM BST
Came as a very pleasant surprise when I got the email.  There was me thinking that things would never get better again, but this is a start!
Report Latalomne September 26, 2013 6:13 PM BST
PS Mate - email I got said AT LEAST June 2014.
Report 1.01 Layer September 26, 2013 6:54 PM BST
Not received mine yet, Lat. Hopefully they extend it to other sports in the meantime.
Report curlywurly September 26, 2013 7:34 PM BST
Great news.
Hopefully the markets will pick up and betfair could possibly roll it out into a few more sports that desperately need a kick up the backside.
What's it going to say on the portal?
Report Toto82 September 26, 2013 8:47 PM BST
How do they decide who to send this email to?
Report benny_ROBS_roy September 26, 2013 8:56 PM BST
just for the people who gave up trading rugby then is it
Report Latalomne September 26, 2013 9:05 PM BST
Benny - no.  I'm active every week.

Toto - Reading between the lines, PC payers who have paid PC because of Union winnings.
Report Latalomne September 27, 2013 11:57 AM BST
* unless you're in Australia or NZ.
Report 1.01 Layer September 27, 2013 12:12 PM BST
Also been told :
We will look at it as if Rugby Union didn’t exist so no your Rugby losses don’t go against other sports.

Shame. Could have been some high risk strategies in the offing there.
Report 1.01 Layer September 27, 2013 12:24 PM BST
Another email:

Scrap that, your losses WILL do against your other sports

Nice Grin
Report 1.01 Layer September 27, 2013 2:38 PM BST
I was incorrect in the opening post. RU is exempt of PC as of today.

Also, making losses count towards PC, we could see a lot of PC payers lumping on Rugby over the weekend to offset their liability from other sports.
Report RugbyMan September 27, 2013 2:56 PM BST
Could make for very interesting markets if we have a whole bunch of big players instead of one or two.
Report Latalomne September 27, 2013 5:46 PM BST
Already it seems someone doesn't know the rules. 1.01 matched in the Currie Cup for £4k with 30 seconds to go, one point game and the trailing team in possession and going forward....  Got away with it, mind....
Report RugbyMan September 27, 2013 5:47 PM BST
That does happen at times anyway, but I wont mind if it happens more often.
Report BigMig September 27, 2013 5:49 PM BST
Doesn't matter if he's laid 1.01 elsewhere.
Report Latalomne September 27, 2013 5:50 PM BST
He'll have done well to have laid 1.01 elsewhere in those circumstances!
Report frames September 27, 2013 6:41 PM BST
Can you confirm Lat.I have not had an email .Any winning rugby bets don't count to PC but losers do ,it's not on the week.All bets are separate ?
Report Latalomne September 27, 2013 7:11 PM BST
I've not had that myself, Mate, but 1.01 is a good lad and I'm sure if that's what he's been told, that's the way it is.
Report frames September 27, 2013 7:14 PM BST
Thanks.Spoke to them and they said emails were sent out today.Not had one but have had a bet on the rugby on the strength of these threads.
Report Latalomne September 27, 2013 7:18 PM BST
Check your messages, Mate.
Report frames September 27, 2013 7:23 PM BST
Thanks for that Lat ,would seem promising.Do you do much on the rugby ?
Report 1.01 Layer September 27, 2013 7:35 PM BST
Ha! Cheers Lat Happy

Had this email today from BF account manager James Ellis

We have taken the decision to remove Premium Charge from all Rugby Union bets you place on The Exchange which settle before midnight on 2nd June 2014. This includes all markets pre-play and in-play in all competitions both domestically and internationally.  This does not apply to Australian or New Zealand customers.



This is effective from now so any bets placed this week will be included in this. Your Premium Charge statement will include all rugby activity as normal but you will receive an account credit on Wednesday (typically around midday) for any rugby union Premium Charge generated in the previous week.  As a result, this PC exemption will not cause any detrimental effect on future PC payments.



If the trial proves to be a success, we’ll look to extend it in to summer 2014. At the moment we have no further news regarding Premium Charge on other sports.


I then asked about losses and had 2 replies.

Firstly:
We will look at it as if Rugby Union didn’t exist so no your Rugby losses don’t go against other sports.

Then 5 minutes later:
Scrap that, your losses WILL do against your other sports



Seen some others confirm same info on Twitter too.
Report RugbyMan September 27, 2013 7:37 PM BST
Does make you wonder about the bit regarding NZ and Aus customers. It seems a bit odd to apply it to them, but not to the Aus Wallet in general.
Report 1.01 Layer September 27, 2013 7:50 PM BST
I'm guessing the different legal framework complicates it in some way, RM.
Report frames September 27, 2013 8:57 PM BST
If I have a bet on game A and win £50,then a bet on game B and lose £50 do I get a £50 reduction on PC or am I back to square one for that week ?
Report Latalomne September 28, 2013 8:14 AM BST
Surely they'll only consider your net position on Union for the week, won't they?
Report frames September 28, 2013 8:21 AM BST
I expect so.They start something last Monday ,keep it fairly quiet and don't have any rules to read up on as far as I can see.
Report frames September 28, 2013 8:23 AM BST
I lost £100 last night ,will have a small bet today ,hopefully a win and see what happens Wednesday.
Report Latalomne September 28, 2013 8:31 AM BST
Just reading 1.01's email chain, it sounds like some of the finer points hadn't been considered until he queried them, so....  Maybe there'll be a follow-up email?
Report 1.01 Layer September 28, 2013 8:39 AM BST
Good point, Lat. Tbh, it wouldn't be the first time they hadn't thought through the implications of a decision!  I'm expecting the goalposts to be moved on Monday.
Report frames September 28, 2013 8:45 AM BST
Indeed.When I first read about it yesterday it sounded good ,I am now expecting it to be pointless when ,as 1-01 points out, the goalposts are moved.BF can say they never actually put the goalposts up.
Report curlywurly September 28, 2013 10:29 AM BST
So if they decide to treat rugby like it doesn't exist for pc purposes, then it wont really make much of a difference will it?
Sure, it's going to benefit those of us who play rugby anyway, but it's hardly likely to attract new blood.
Report Latalomne September 28, 2013 10:38 AM BST
Depends whether you believe the liquidity has dried up because of the introduction of PC, I guess.

I remember a time not that many years ago when the 6N HCs would be brilliant but in recent times they've been pale imitations of themselves.

And, as 1.01 points out, the fact any losses from Union will still count towards overall P/L for the week, it could lead to some people with PC liabilities to chance their arms a bit on a Sunday afternoon.  Haven't worked out the advantage but an even money punt would pay better than evens.
Report curlywurly September 28, 2013 10:49 AM BST
And, as 1.01 points out, the fact any losses from Union will still count towards overall P/L for the week

That's the big one alright. If that was definitely the case then there will be some people going crazy this weekend.
Report 1.01 Layer September 28, 2013 10:58 AM BST
Lat, suppose yr 1k up on other sports. Bet to win 1k on Rugby on here and lay it to cover at another exchange (or bet on a 2-way market on here arb it on the high street).
Then, lose on here and PC is zero but you collect the non-bf bet. So 1k up net.
Or win on here and PC is still 50% (give or take 10%) on the original 1k but you have a 1k exempt rugby win on top, so 1.5k up net.

Think that's right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't had my coffee quota yet.

fwiw, the ITM matches seemed to have a bit more liquidity about than usual. Still lacking price takers though.  Worth keeping an eye open for some good value lumpy bets this weekend.
Report Latalomne September 28, 2013 11:03 AM BST
There are other exchanges?!?  WhoopsLaugh
Report 1.01 Layer September 28, 2013 11:14 AM BST
This is obviously a theoretical example and I'm not suggesting that anyone should bet anywhere other than Betfair Whoops
Report jt45 September 28, 2013 1:56 PM BST
1.01 Layer     28 Sep 13 10:58 

Lat, suppose yr 1k up on other sports. Bet to win 1k on Rugby on here and lay it to cover at another exchange (or bet on a 2-way market on here arb it on the high street).
Then, lose on here and PC is zero but you collect the non-bf bet. So 1k up net.
Or win on here and PC is still 50% (give or take 10%) on the original 1k but you have a 1k exempt rugby win on top, so 1.5k up net.

Think that's right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't had my coffee quota yet...



I'm puzzled as to why a customer would make a £1500 net profit in the second part of your example?

In the first part of your example, where the rugby bet loses on bf, you seem to include the win elsewhere when referring to the customer's net position. To ensure consistency, I would have presumed that the loss elsewhere should have been included when referring to the customer's net position, where the rugby bet wins on Betfair, in the second part of your example. 

Presumably, if the customer wins the £1000 rugby bet on Betfair, he would have lost an approximately equal amount elsewhere?

The customer would therefore have made a £2000 gross profit on Betfair; of which PC would be applicable on the original £1000. Depending on the commission paid and charges generated, a 50% Higher Rate PC payer may be approximately £1500 up net (after all charges including PC and the relevant rebate) on Betfair.

However, assuming that the customer would indeed also have lost approximately £1000 elsewhere, I would presume that he would be in a similar net position to that he was in prior to making the rugby bet. He would be up approximately £500 net, depending on commission paid and charges generated.

I don't dispute the likely effectiveness of the strategy you've outlined but it appears that your example should be amended.
Report 1.01 Layer September 28, 2013 4:18 PM BST
I think you're right, jt, I failed to include the outside loss in the BF rugby win scenario.  Somebody a bit more switched on than me needs to tinker with the numbers. Like you suggest tho', I think the strategy stands up.
Report Latalomne September 30, 2013 7:48 AM BST
Well, I have to say that having been vaguely excited by the prospect of what might happen on the Exeter v Leicester match yesterday in light of this, the in-play market was pretty thin....
Report Templeton Peck September 30, 2013 9:46 AM BST
One of many examples of how PC would be reduced/net winnings increase:

A 50% PC payer has won £1,000 on other sports during the week.  On Sunday, he bets this £1,000 at odds of 2.00 on a Rugby Union market.  If it wins, he's made total gross profit of £2,000 and net profit of £1,500 (50% PC paid on other sports winnings of £1,000 and nothing paid on rugby union because of the rebate).

The next week he does the same but this time the rugby bet loses.  He's therefore won £0 for the week (+£1,000 on other sports minus £1,000 on rugby union) and so pays no PC.

Over the two weeks, he's won a net £1,500.

Under the old system, he'd not bet on rugby union, and would have two weeks where he's won £1,000 gross and £500 net and so he's up a net £1,000.  £500 less than the new system.

If he did bet on rugby union under the old system, his £2,000 win in week 1 would be a net £1,000 and week 2 would be £0.  Again, a net win over the two weeks of £1,000, which is £500 less than the new system.

Of course, this example is simplistic as it does not take into account commission, commission generated, lifetime position being less than weekly position, etc.  But the general point stands: if losses count, then Betfair's PC revenue will be slashed and PC-paying punters' net profit will increase significantly.
Report BJG October 2, 2013 2:20 PM BST
Recently we introduced a special offer removing the Premium Charge (PC) from all Rugby Union bets for a trial period. The intent of the trial was to grow activity and liquidity in Rugby Union.  After customer feedback we have now suspended this offer while we look at ways to improve the customer experience.  We want to offer more initiatives like this to increase growth and liquidity. When doing this we need to canvas customer opinion prior to launch to ensure we have an optimal customer experience.

We appreciate your patience and feedback and look forward to working with you to make the Betfair experience a better one.

We will be rebating any Premium Charge paid in Rugby Union on bets placed and matched between 23rd of September to 2nd of October 14:10:00.(Time of announcement) including those that have yet to settle.

Please reach out to your Account Manager if you would like to participate in a future trial of this nature or have feedback on how it could be improved.

Regards

The Betfair Team





wtf is this about?Crazy didnt last long!
Report Latalomne October 2, 2013 2:58 PM BST
Just got the same.  That leaves an even worse taste.
Report Latalomne October 2, 2013 2:59 PM BST
After 'customer feedback' is just bobbins.  Who in their right mind is going to say "No, actually, you're alright," to what was being proposed?  This can only be because they'd not thought it through.
Report book October 2, 2013 3:07 PM BST
what a joke,as you say what customer is going to say no.
Report book October 2, 2013 3:10 PM BST
and whens the rebates being given back ?
Report curlywurly October 2, 2013 3:17 PM BST
They've been given back, but mine's wrong
Report book October 2, 2013 3:42 PM BST
mine hasnt been done
Report BJG October 2, 2013 4:11 PM BST
Assume they give it the shortest trial in history as they were nt pleased with the pick up in liquidity? A week hardly a big enough sample ffs

Well if it was a bit better advertised and announced bar a few emails that most send to the spam box then......
Report Latalomne October 2, 2013 4:16 PM BST
Honestly, BJG, I am convinced it has to be because of the implications - discussed in this thread - that hadn't been considered.
Report book October 2, 2013 4:16 PM BST
correct,absolute joke,not fantastic matches on last week either.
Report bf trader October 2, 2013 4:28 PM BST
Had nothing to do with marginal pick up in liquidity. Many who would have provided the boost simply didn't because there were too many unanswered questions about the ill-thought-out promotion that needed answering first.

The promotion was scrapped because of BF's lack of understanding / insight into their own fee structure / customer intelligence that led them to introducing a simple way for those paying PC to reduce it massively.

I suspect there are few at BF who truly understand all the issues surrounding PC and the implications to its changes. Clearly the brains behind this promotion missed a rather large problem with their brainchild.
Report 1.01 Layer October 2, 2013 4:33 PM BST
What a shameful episode.

Agree no conspiracy or sinister motive. Just a poor understanding of their product. fwiw, It's hardly surprising with such a complex pricing system.
Report DOUBLED October 2, 2013 4:49 PM BST
Totally embarrassing and unprofessional but says it all that we aren't totally surprised by this latest show of utter incompetence
Report frames October 2, 2013 6:04 PM BST
Taken from the GB thread

Joined: 17 Nov 02 | Topic/replies: 2 | Blogger: Golden's blog
Betfair's attitude was summed up for me with a conversation I had with the Premium Team, who told me the trial was being scrapped as they felt customers would 'abuse' it.


Us abusing it is the reason not them not having a clue.
Report 1.01 Layer October 2, 2013 6:26 PM BST
It's a bit rich BF complaining that customers are abusing them

Tells you all you need to know about their focus.
Report RugbyMan October 2, 2013 9:53 PM BST
Is anyone surprised by this?

Poorly thought out, poorly organised, complete farce. It's a complete hilarity that betfair use the term abuse in their defence, bearing in mind that when I was paying premium charges it took me a long time to find out because nobody told me!
Report book October 3, 2013 9:05 AM BST
still not been given the trial rebate back,has anyone else ?
Report 1.01 Layer October 3, 2013 9:10 AM BST
Had mine yesterday, book. Better chase it up.
Report book October 3, 2013 9:15 AM BST
already have 1.01, keep saying their get to me,blah blah blah
Report 1.01 Layer October 3, 2013 9:18 AM BST
gl, mate.
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 7:48 AM BST
Judging my the amount of cash in the market on the ITM Cup game right now that isn't mine, I'd say this could have served to lower liquidity further....
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 7:54 AM BST
Picked up a bit now.  Still no backers, mind.....
Report curlywurly October 4, 2013 8:34 AM BST
How long is it going to take the betfair brains to come up with an alternative offer to improve our experience?

Spread should be 3-4 days but is currently 12-14 months
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 9:15 AM BST
I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this in recent days.  Most of my 'solutions' ultimately lead to a dead end.  The only way I can see anything close to a happy medium is if PC is halved on union, thus reducing the advantage of arbing PC liabilities away while at the same time giving a bit back to encourage liquidity.  Whether that would be sufficient to incentivise people to return?
Report john23 October 4, 2013 9:22 AM BST
Been told something is in the pipeline re. rugby markets and should hear in a couple of weeks.  That was also my recommendation Lat. when I spoke to my a/c manager. Live in hope I suppose.
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 9:29 AM BST
Fingers crossed indeed, John.  Quite ironic that, for once, it was BF giving too much away that proved the initial idea's downfall.
Report 1.01 Layer October 4, 2013 9:44 AM BST
Spoke to my a/c manager yesterday. He seemed to be under the impression that an alternative wouldn't be too long in the offing (mentioning Nov 1) but couldn't say anything concrete. It did sound like the intention was there but the intention was there a year ago, so I'm not holding my breath. 
He reiterated their desire for more feedback, so I had a rant (poor guy). The subject has been discussed to death on the Gen Betting forum and until something changes, I can't see that the feedback will change, so I'm not sure what they're waiting for.

Fwiw, my suggestion, as a starter is to have a weekly allowance of £500 - £1000 of profits before PC is incurred. This would have a proportionately larger effect on the smaller PC payers and hence make the system a bit more equitable, like a tax free allowance for the lowest earners.
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 9:52 AM BST
Are they actually looking at doing something across the board, though, Mate, or is it something that they're only targeting at certain markets?  I assumed it was the latter...
Report 1.01 Layer October 4, 2013 9:58 AM BST
He seemed to be focused on a replacement Rugby promo, Lat but given the outcome of the last one, I thought they needed an alternative approach Laugh
Report Latalomne October 4, 2013 10:10 AM BST
Laugh  Fair play!  Laugh
Report TheVis October 4, 2013 6:51 PM BST
Well, I go away for a week and completely miss one of the more bizarre episodes in BF's history Laugh
Report 1.01 Layer October 5, 2013 8:43 AM BST
Welcome back to the madhouse, Vis Grin
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