Message from Scotland

If only that could be true.

It will be.

Northern Ireland says slan abhaile

45% for 55% against no surrender to the provisional Special Needs Party.

English people dream of the Jocks voting for independence. Let them stew in debt & buckfast.

Let Scotland go their own way. Most miserable moaning bunch of people ever to grace the House of Commons. Never heard anyone of them say anything nice. Get rid.

Yes,no need to collude with far right English nationalism.

kenny - let U and ur nationalist have ur next referendum vote.  U will be beat again.  What will happen then.  Last nights vote did not alter anything.  SNP have only 45% of the people.  That will be around the same if we do have another referendum.  SNP share of the vote only went up 1%.

Sturgeon currently talking nonsense in her speech

let them bring it on, Kriskin.

they will lose.

I applaud the SNP wanting to control their own destiny even though its not in the financial interests of their people.

Dotch - they need to concentrate firstly on managing Scotland.  NHS, Transport, Education, etc not in a good place

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction . ( English) Newtons law .

SNP and Scottish reactions to Boris's next moves are going to be interesting . Boris needs to be careful ( which I doubt , he is basically an adventurer ) . Sturgeon has an undoubted huge mandate , largely because the Scots see no virtue in  the Conservatives or Labour or Lib Dems  , clear messages to all those parties yesterday .

Sturgeon might want to act quickly though , there may be fall out from Salmond situation .

Assuming the Scots got independence, could they afford to get in the EU? The EU have 3 countries waiting in the wings who will be negative contributors, could they afford any more?

Let them leave.
They will have to proof they are fit to join EU  , as they will be next month.
Tell them to get own currency.
They can only leave once , get shut.

Not only surge in SNP vote but when it comes to Indy Ref 2 there are a few additional factors:

..  EU nationals in Scotland will now vote to stay (last time there was fear/threat from Westminster that Scotland would be out of EU)
..  6 more years of youth vote on register
..  An unrecognisable and offensive political culture in England
..  "the better together" "partnership of equals" has been exposed for the bullsh1t it was - Brexit none of Scotland's business


Prediction:   Emphatic vote for independence.  Enough is enough - have to leave the mad-house. I'm very very confident - see it now in my own family formerly pro-Union voters

The SNP don't accept any referendum results but they keep wanting them!

Dec 13, 2019 -- 1:05PM, Wallflower wrote:

Not only surge in SNP vote but when it comes to Indy Ref 2 there are a few additional factors:..  EU nationals in Scotland will now vote to stay (last time there was fear/threat from Westminster that Scotland would be out of EU)..  6 more years of youth vote on register..  An unrecognisable and offensive political culture in England..  "the better together" "partnership of equals" has been exposed for the bullsh1t it was - Brexit none of Scotland's businessPrediction:   Emphatic vote for independence.  Enough is enough - have to leave the mad-house. I'm very very confident - see it now in my own family formerly pro-Union voters

Wallflower - What surge.  1% extra.  That's NOT a surge.  It's the oposite in our household.  We have had enough of the SNP and that also goes for a lot of my fellow Celtic supporters who a lot of people think would be natural voters for Independence

Once Boris gets his Bexit deal done and if there is little if any distruption and now Corbyn has gone, then the snps bubble will burst. Labour under a new center leader will win back most of the seats they have lost to the snp

themover 13 Dec 19 13:05 
The SNP don't accept any referendum results but they keep wanting them!

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Scotland voted NO to Brexit in the referendum.  It is not a region, it is a country - the UK is not A country in the general sense it is a political union of 4 countries (1 of which the most of it left a long time ago -and has thrived).

If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave.  Brexiteers rabbit on cluelessly about "undemocratic" EU but ask them what is the EU Council, EU Parliament, EU Commission and how they work/interact - they haven't a clue. It is more democratic than the UK is. In addition on major treaties (especially trade deals of which they (ie. WE!!)  have over 60 significant ones) - ALL COUNTRIES MUST AGREE before its signed. That is democracy and what a real political union looks like.

So if the UK was a proper union the same principles would be in place - as it is the UK is just "greater England" it always was.  But not for much longer.....

"If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave."

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. Case closed, but if Scotland wants another referendum just to confirm it doesn't want to change it's mind then good luck in getting the UK Parliament to approve one.

themover 13 Dec 19 13:25 
"If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave."

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. Case closed, but if Scotland wants another referendum just to confirm it doesn't want to change it's mind then good luck in getting the UK Parliament to approve one.

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Two main reasons hindered people  -  we would be out of EU and currency issue.

If there was no Brexit and UK remained in EU then agree case closed - no independence referendum for the foreseeable - cant be justified. Scotland is in two unions - Eu and UK - the EU is the bigger and more important one.  If Scotland is taken out of its bigger union AGAINST ITS WILL - then it is constitutionally correct that a second independence referendum should take place. 

Getting UK parliament to approve it is a separate issue but does not distract from the legitimacy of having one.

You do know that Scotland would be out of both unions if it won another Ref, depending on the deal Boris and EU agree to then there might be little change in real termseconomically

I suspect that the EU wouldn't have much problem taking Scotland in independently as it already meets most of the requirements. They probably will be made to take on the Euro though which they may or may not want.

--   EU has indicated favourable to fast-tracking Scotland entry

--   Your second point is true - if there was no real change economically it would imply no trade disruption to goods AND SERVICES because we follow EU rules (they are bigger beast, so they WILL set the rules) and we are aligned to either or both Single Market / Customs Union. Then you are correct, no real reason for Scotland to leave UK - but the bigger question would be why Brexit when we would probably pay in (in order to have access, which is reasonable), businesses follow EU-based rules in order to be certified to trade freely, and we have no say in making them. What was the point to begin with? But I agree in principle. 

Additionally Sturgeon cant call for Indy Ref 2 until the terms are seen. This is going to be a big big problem for Johnson - no way will this be done by Dec 2020 - its the usual arrogance and hubris from the Tories - say or promise anything to get over immediate blockage, worry about it later. In the real world - the EU will tell the UK when the trade deal is ready. There is a very real possibility of UK being in transition for years - the "vassal state" condition.  Frustrating for Brexiteers, and for businesses who just lose patience and leave to locate in EU (EU won't mind as it will be net gainer and it will once more squeeze the UK as it has teh UK has once more stupidly put itself on the clock when it doesn't even know where the destination is).  But this could well be equally frustrating for Sturgeon / SNP I think - momentum could be lost as UK remains in limbo.

Can you explain to me how Scotland will survive economically in the years it takes to join the EU? I assume you know something I don't

If Scotland became independent, say in 2023 (allowing 2 years for UK withdrawal agreement) it would then be another 4 years before it rejoined the EU ie 2027. It would have an agreement with the EU, as with the other applicants, under an association agreement. If Scotland keeps the Pound Sterling Scotland would not be able to demonstrate that it could commit to joining the euro at some future point.

Why would it not?

Same as a Brexit UK - it will still trade. Scotland has a lot going for it.  I've actually come to the conclusion that in a global world you may be better off being a small economy in a bigger trade bloc - more nimble to ever increasing changes of pace - but with great access to big markets. Look at Denmark, Luxembourg, Austria, Estonia (fabulous example of a transformed economy), Ireland, Finland etc - all in the top 10-20 of every socio-econonmic scale measuring wealth, health and quality of life.

Will be difficulties perhaps at first - but the fact we are relatively small means we have many successful models to look at - we can copy those economic models that would work for us too, and then devise our own. I fully confident we have the capability to manage our own affairs - countries smaller than us do so very successfully.

Besides being part of  a dysfunctional UK is a drag on us.

You sound like a Leaver now

Not sure about the detail and don't have time to look it up (working from home) - getting ready for a call supposedly.

The Irish, and I will hand it to them, they were all over Brexit from the start. Apparently they already have an agreement with the EU that if NI left the UK it would automatically accede to the EU, with temporary representation by Ireland - until new "country" (Ireland) was re-constituted. They have worked out the "transition" - would be interesting to see how that worked and how much of it would be applicable to Scotland - how its "transition" status would be managed.

themover 13 Dec 19 14:30 
You sound like a Leaver now

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  -  except missing one key ingredient "part of bigger trade bloc".  I've learned a lot about EU in last few years, especially trade - had an idea, but now I know way more.

Trade deals are crucial to an economy - EU's problem is/was each country is relatively small in comparison to US, China in particular. Might is right in trade deals - very tough business.  The irony is the Single Market the world's most successful trade bloc was a UK idea. The US hates it because when they sit down with EU they aren't actually the big boy at the table - the EU has the bigger market - we can set the rules and terms. This has benefitted EU countries enormously. Other regions in the world try to replicate it - to stop themselves getting shafted.


I know a Dutch guy whose brother works in Brussels he said on one level they were glad to see the back of UK because their politicians were low calibre - out-dated union types or dim-witted public schoolboys - but deeply regret the loss of British diplomats and civil servants - top-class who actually devised much of the successful EU processes, treaties, procedures etc.  (Including the withdrawal mechanism ironically )

Indy at the moment is about 50/50..however the more bojo ignores indyref the more indy will win any vote...its coming...

Northern Ireland relies on a heavy subsidy from Westminster. I'm not even sure there's a desire in the republic to take that on, as much as a united Ireland sounds nice.

I agree the UK's Single Market idea is spot on. It can now do Single Market+ without having to be ruled from Brussels

But but - it cant be a single market on its own. And I accept I'm being crude but UK's d1ck just isn't big enough to count.

The two big agencies the Banking Authority (massively important to everything the EU does was ran from London, not Brussels) as was the European Medicines Agency. We have lost both......policy was agreed by each country in Brussels / Strasbourg but the real power - the implementation of the policy - was often from London in particular, Paris and Frankfurt.  This was never highlighted - we were very influential and highly-regarded in the EU (despite our embarrassing politicians).

Anyway..... need to earn a living

sounds like the UK are behind a lot of the EU's success, no surprise there, we have the experience, the  brains, the talent, and the resources.
thats why the EU hate the idea of us leaving, they know we can make a success of it outside their club. (Regardless of how big the Beatles were, John Lennon was always going to be successful as a solo artist).

As for the EU being big boys v the likes of the US

EU is a bigger economy than the US

I think if you take out the UK's 3 trillion out of the EU the US tops the EU, or is pretty close.

correct..and uk and usa ruled by liars who reward deceit and untruths.

The point I'm making is when EU sits down with US or China - they have plenty of muscles to flex.

If UK sits down with EU, US or China (or India for that matter) well.........not really like with like is it?  That's a problem. A big one.

Exact same in Scotland. Don't be so naive Kenny.

The UK and the EU will end up with an FTA, just depends how long it takes the EU to chat about it.

...... and what price the EU extracts for it

dude..you reckon wee Nicky is as dishonest as that fud Bojo?...give yer heid a shake man.

Price ..... for starters....the EU will demand unrestricted access to British fishing grounds and Boris and co will agree and shaft all the fishermen who voted for BREXIT
Hell mend them you can never trust a Tory .

Denmark has already demanded that. Do they not know there is no fish left thanks to having open waters in the EU

GDP per capita is the economic stat that matters, the rest is spin, smoke and mirrors.

The EU is miles behind the US in GDP per capita, always has been, always will be. 

Mover - the depletion of the fishing grounds was down to the Tories who negotiated the fishing rights away to the EU with the sound bite " as not being of sufficient  importance to bother about".

As I said never trust a TORY

Hopefully they can negotiate them back

dude..you reckon wee Nicky is as dishonest as that fud Bojo?...give yer heid a shake man.

No, never said that. I'd agree she's probably not as dishonest as Boris but then again 80% of what she says is simply moaning at Westminster even if she will end up doing the exact same as them when it's Scotland decision. I'm not sure if I've ever seen as quick a U turn in politics as the SNP over the Airport Duty Tax.

After making that statement about airport tax and speed.....I assume you don't follow politics to closely." Dying in a ditch"

At least UK fishing has a chance again, which it wouldn't have with remain. Let's hope they don't fook it up again.

Platini 13 Dec 19 16:41 
GDP per capita is the economic stat that matters, the rest is spin, smoke and mirrors.

The EU is miles behind the US in GDP per capita, always has been, always will be. 

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No it's not. Purchasing power and % of world trade are more important in this case. GDP per capita skews the real picture.

Anyway - the point is the EU, US and China are close enough in terms of trade negotiation leverage. They are the 3 economic world powers - none is dominant over the other

"MICHAEL GOVE has promised Britain will be outside of the Common Fisheries Policy after Brexit should the Conservative Parliament succeed in forming a majority Government from this month’s general election."
By PAUL WITHERS
PUBLISHED: 14:43, Mon, Dec 2, 2019 | UPDATED: 17:58, Mon, Dec 2, 2019

When UK leaves EU - we are very minor players

The UK will have the same nuclear power as all of the EU combined

They will.....it is already written into the  Boris deal that fishing rights are to be negotiated.

Gives us a break, this bunch are a bunch of political scoundrels and nothing is beyond their capabilities of lying and skullduggery.

After making that statement about airport tax and speed.....I assume you don't follow politics to closely." Dying in a ditch"

I'd consider a two time manifesto commitment as a somewhat more entrenched position than a metaphorical political soundbite.

So what - going to invade the EU.  Militarily UK is only on a par with France, probably less nuclear capability, but not sure 

At the moment France is actually militarily stronger than the UK but that is only current picture as UK is re-vamping and re-investing and may be stronger in a few years time - but its hair-splitting.

The English nationalist brexiteers seem to think this is still the BRITISH EMPIRE.

SEND A GUNBOAT UP THE RIVER AND SHOW JOHNNY FOREIGNER WE ARE THEIR LORDS AND MASTERS.

And we have a more effective defence force than the rest of the EU combined. One of my remaining images of the referendum campaign was a Belgian pro EU student asking who is going to pay for and provide the defence of Europe if we leave. A question which gave a much more revealing picture of how we are perceived there.

The SNP government took a decision based on changing circumstances regarding the Airport Duty which was correct.

You want to decry them for making a correct decision?

The EU will/are desperate to link up security and the UK should not give up things like it's fisheries whilst giving them that.

The SNP government took a decision based on changing circumstances regarding the Airport Duty which was correct.

You want to decry them for making a correct decision?

What were the changing circumstances? It was no longer a stick to beat Westminster with and it was now a devolved power?

This mob will sell your granny to achieve their own ends.

Never were so many political carpetbaggers allowed thro the door of No 10.

The things you are talking about had already been "sold" being in the EU.

It was to do with climate change....it was pointed out that they were encouraging more flying which was against the targets being set to reduce emissions.

That was why the decision was made.

Check that you know what you are talking about before you jump in ....it saves embarrassment.

Of course if Scotland should go independent half of the UK deficit will be sorted out overnight.

She has shot her bolt nothing the SNP can do we are out hopefully Sturgeon will then leave the UK Rifkind spoke so eloquently this morning on the telly alienating Boris was poor judgement who cares whether Scotland is all SNP we need border controls.

It was to do with climate change....it was pointed out that they were encouraging more flying which was against the targets being set to reduce emissions.

That was why the decision was made.

Check that you know what you are talking about before you jump in ....it saves embarrassment.

So someone had to point out to them that their manifesto vow in reducing airport duty tax from the highest rate in the EU to the lowest rate in the EU would be "encouraging more flying"?  You actually make them sound even worse than I do.

Really Mover
I assume you are quoting the GERS deficit....If you believe that you will believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden.

The figures are" ESTIMATES" of Revenue and Expenditure supplied by the Westminster TREASURY to the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

For example 24 out of the 25 revenue streams are ESTIMATES because the UK treasury has no way of apportioning accurate revenues to the 4 countries of the UK.

Did you know that the Gers figures showed a positive balance every year up to 2014,  since then a negative balance.

I wonder why that is......what happened in 2014. I leave you to work that one out

Busted flush.

Shrewd I kind of doubt that, as you clearly missed the point: If they had implemented the policy they would have come under criticism from the climate change lobby especially since they were already setting targets for emissions and one would have clashed with the other. Considering that climate change was becoming the focus of attention, they chose to make a political decision in favour of reduced emissions.

GET IT.

The reason these figures are not “rubbished by the Scottish government” is because they are produced by the Scottish government.

In the pre-referendum White Paper, Alex Salmond stated “GERS is the authoritative publication on Scotland’s public finances”.

I never missed the point. I quoted what you said. Of course they would have come under criticism. That is agreed. That is why they made a complete u turn on a policy which they had used in two manifesto's.

That is why they are also hypocritical liars who are also untrustworthy. They criticised Westminster for having the highest air duty tax in the world when it was a reserved power but a few years after using it as a stick to beat Westminster with they realised that actually the world is a more complex place when you are the one that is making the decisions. Then after all the criticism they gave Westminster it turns out they actually agree with Westminsters position and shelved it.

Sturgeon when it was a reserved power "Air passenger duty is one of the highest taxes of its kind in the world - which simply doesn't make sense". Once it's devolved of course it does make sense to her.

Get it?

Sturgeon should consolidate her position over the next 2 years .  By that time a lot of chickens will have come home to roost , Brexit chaos may have occurred as the EU politicians have shown themselves to be adept .  Not sure Boris even knows what is in his oven ready deal , his incorrect answers to the Northern Ireland border in the sea indicate that . The one thing the DUP are good on is money , they like their half crown .  They are against Boris's deal , presumably because they have figured out the implications of his deal .And maybe the penny has dropped that they backed the wrong horse ( leave wise ) in the beginning .

Listening to newly elected Conservatives in places like Burnley today , putting together pieces of the jigsaw . They were not voted in , Labour were voted out .  Big difference .  If Boris and co make complacent assumptions ( probable) and act accordingly , these new guys ( and gals) will be left high and dry next time around .  The Tories just want away from EU controls , so that they and their well heeled supporters can avoid scrutiny and make money( their only god) from financial transactions . NHS , schools , police  , etc , conservatives pretend they care , but if they do they have a huge recent history of treating all these with disdain , 9 years and a very poor track record later .

Boris and co will prove their incompetence in due course , again their track record  individually while in government/ cabinet positions is poor , and you can't get blood from a stone . Being clever electorally and acting for the common good are 2 different animals .

Sturgeon and Northern Ireland just have to sit tight , awaiting screw ups in Brexit process , unfortunately it will mean longer NHS queues etc and potential strikes here .  Scotland at least have control of what is happening there , N I is in limbo , the police in particular are very worried about their ability to cope with any developments . Nobody , least of all those with ultimate power , cares . Actions more proof than words .

People need to be aware of what/who they have voted for .

All 18 of returned Northern Ireland MP's oppose Boris's deal . Ponder on that . And only 8 of 18 have unionist specifically in their title .

if that were true , all she needs to do is wait , but doesnt want to wait in case it turns out for the better and then she hasnt got a case

The usual total ignorance spouted about Scotland and independence. Trouble many of you have is the sources from which your "information" comes.

For pitys sake please leave. The sooner the better.

couldn't agree more sageform.

Boris's speech is a signal to go away from what got him in

Already going against what he promised

"ok now we're here...." *chucks all the papers up in the air*

People will never learn

Dude ; you are making it up as you go along. Westminsters application of duty had nothing to do with it .The SNP decided to reduce the tax to encourage more air traffic thro Scotland airports encouraged to do so by all the main airports. They were initially held up by the fact that they could not control the implementation thro all the small airports as Westminster still held control of the tax options which applied to the smaller units.

Totally agree with Alias, English commentators on here are fueled and misinformed from what they read in The Express The Mail and other MSM rags. Some of the sh*te they print in the Scottish versions of these Unionist papers you would not believe.
The ACTUAL facts posters on this site are aware off .... would fit on the back of a postage stamp.

Of course Westminsters application had everything to do with it. SNP wanted to drop the rate to the lowest in the EU from the highest. They decided not to because they agree after several years that having high air duty tax does make sense.

Tele I think it's clear that your view seems to be politicians can bullshit, lie and be untrustworthy as much as they want as long as they are Scottish. The way SNP dealt with airport duty is exactly the way in which they would deal with many other matters if they were devolved.

Its easy enough to criticise when you don't have to make the decisions a lot harder when you do. Sturgeon is just like all politicians it's just it's easier for her to blame it on someone else.

Fact. To win a seat in Scotland you need far fewer votes than in other parts of UK. Fact. Scotland gets more publicity than they deserve. Fact. Westminster would be Tory for the forseeable future if it gave Scotland Independence.

Were no leavin , don't listen to the pish!

If you want to stay then stop rocking the boat. The rest of us are getting seasick.

Feck all to do with me, so shut yer hole, you will need us when the race wars start.

Race wars in bonnie Ayr?...really flusher?

Keep rocking it and tip Bobo overboard

Can't be bothered reading through but in response to the OP.
How do you arrive at that? Nothing has changed since 2014.
The No vote is at 55% and Boris will honour the result of the 2014 vote and not allow a second referendum.
Talk of indepence by any other path is pure nonsense but to be expected from the cult.

And what happened to the "Lend us your vote to stop Brexit, it won't be taken as a vote for independence".
Appeared on many an election pamphlet and SNP MPs twitter accounts. You can't trust the cult.

before trying to big up the might of the EU, you might want to try remembering the last time they landed a man on the moon, won a war, or did anything of any global significance.

militarily they're poodles in sheep's clothing
technologically, they're bottom of the class
and as for their super economy - the eurozone is a basket case, on a collision course with an iceberg

Stick to being a worldie fitba player ya clown.

Baaaaaa bumhug!