Countback To The Day The Bus Was Parked

It is now 1,220 days since 51.89% of the participating electorate indicated a willingness to move forward towards an undefined future state with no defined plan.

We continue to have an undefined future state, with no defined plan to take us there.

Meanwhile, there were 696,271 live births in England and Wales in 2016, 679,106 live births in England and Wales in 2017, and 657,076 live births in England and Wales in 2018.

That's over two million new citizens in England and Wales alone that are continuing to wait expectantly for a definition of the future state that is being planned for them.

Maybe, amongst them, are the individuals who can provide the urgently needed clarity on the enormous constitutional change that the nation remains unable to define.

It is now 1,220 days since 51.89% of the participating electorate indicated a willingness to move forward towards an undefined future state with no defined plan.
We continue to have an undefined future state, with no defined plan to take us there.

Meanwhile, there were 525,048 registered deaths in England and Wales in 2016, 533,253 registered deaths in England and Wales in 2017, and 541,589 registered deaths in England and Wales in 2018.

That's approximately 1.6 million people in England and Wales alone that have passed away since they were asked to answer a question that still has been unable to provide a definition of the intended future state, nor a plan of how we would get there.

wouldn't it be better to wait another 10 years to make sure

However, we now have two entire generations of elephants who can't even remember the glorious days of the bus in June 2016.

We really dont. You'd be looking at around 20 years for two elephant generations.

Weasels would have been a better choice you could have had 8 generations of those.

You're welcome.

There were only two options on the ballot paper.  Does that make all of the leave votes somehow invalid ?

We could only answer the question that was asked.

Let's just suppose that Remain do win a 2nd Referendum by 52% - 48%....That's still a big chunk of the population unhappy and voting for CHANGE.

We are a democratic nation - What compromises will be offered up to the 48% by ways of increasing our control over our sovereignty , laws, money , borders etc. ?

I'll tell you - Precisely NOTHING  - everything will just carry on exactly as before.

And you reckon that's OK ?  -  Long live democracy !!

You asked two questions. If you re-read what I said I think you'll find that I've already answered them.

There should have been no more payments to the EU from that date , and all eu MPs should have come home that morning after the referendum

Lee Ho Fooks post of 22.09 sums it up perfectly . Leave vote took no account of the technicalities involved in leaving . Remain campaign was not scary enough in warning of the problems involved in leaving , particularly in relation to Northern Ireland . And the presumption that regional circumstances would be subsidiary to overall voting was not spelled out sufficiently .

The argument for another vote is overwhelming . All the remain voters I know are happy to accept that a second leave vote should be honoured if it happens , but subject to Parliamentary approval in case the ERG lot hi jack the democratic process again in that circumstance .  The people don't trust the Conservatives to negotiate a sensible fair leave deal . Boris and co just want to cliff jump for the hell of it . Most of them have parachutes , the rest of us don't .

You see what we will do (or should do) on Oct 31 or jan 1

Is what we should have done all those years ago
And leave immediately the eu, sm , cu , ecj and stop freedom of movement

Nothing’s changed , we are just over 3 years late ..

I know plenty of people that voted remain even though they felt there were plenty of changes that they would like to see to our future relationship with the EU , and to the manner in which the EU conduct themselves. On balance they felt the best option was to push for change from inside the EU.

So, don't kid yourselves that all remainers love everything about the EU.

Similarly there are plenty of leavers that appreciate loads of the good stuff that the EU has done , but on balance , over the longer term , feel that leave is the best option.

Even if people vote for it?

It is now 1,223 days since 51.89% of the participating electorate indicated a willingness to move forward towards an undefined future state with no defined plan.
We continue to have an undefined future state, with no defined plan to take us there.

On August 6 1223, Louis VIII was crowned King of France.
He reigned until 1226, having previously reigned as King of England between 1216 and 1217.

You are allowing your beliefs to cloud the words I have posted.
Where have I suggested, let alone stated, that I believe "all Remainers love everything about the EU".?

I am very much a process driven individual who believes that good decision making is enhanced by defining a clear path of your intentions.

Clearly understand the current state, define your preferred future state, measure the gaps, determine if they can be bridged, if they can, proceed to define a plan that will take you there.

1,223 days after the referedunm, the government of the day remains unable to define the desired future state.
Or, alternatively, they have defined it but are unwilling to share that definition with the public.

Take back control is not a definition of a future state, it is most certainly not a detailed plan of how to get there.

It is a slogan, no more, no less. A slogan quite deliberately designed to appeal to the emotions of a public who feel that they have been left behind, designed to bypass logical analysis.

If you don't belief me, then listen to Dominic Cummings, the man widely acknowledged as having coined the slogan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDbRxH9Kiy4

Part of the problem is that we tend to believe that our beliefs are the truth, and that the truth is obvious. They often aren’t, it rarely is.
Learn to remain objective, begin to realise that many of your negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviours are caused by misunderstandings that can be avoided.

Once again, you are allowing your beliefs to cloud your judgement.
I have not stated that choosing to remain in the EU provides a clear path to anything.

Where have I stated that either Remain = Clear or that current arrangements are perfect?
It would be helpful if you could acknowledge that I have made no such statements.

As stated above, I am a process driven individual.
This results in a strong belief on evidence based decision making and the benefits of a continual improvement culture.

Do you share such beliefs, or do you belief that the best decisions are made out of blind ignorance?

There was never any doubt that leaving the EU would have a cost. It was made clear to us all in the Government guidance issued to 27m homes.

The people obviously decided it was a price they were prepared to pay.

Better to be a poorer free man than a wealthier oppressed slave.

You do make me laugh Johnny, but still waiting for your views on evidence based decision making and the benefits of a continual improvement culture.

I'm all in favour of evidence based decision making and an improvement culture. I've used it all of my working life.

Consider options - decide on best course of action - implement - review outcomes - react and adjust  etc - it's not rocket science.

Where we may well disagree is on the definition of 'evidence'. In my world evidence is based on facts not on opinions. (Although the opinions of people I respect will play a part of my decision making process - it would be foolish to totally ignore them ).

The only way we can gather evidence of what Leave really means is to start the implementation process and actually leave. We then can see properly the facts of the Leave reality over a reasonable period of time (not weeks or months but a reasonable number of years).   This allows proper time for the changes in Government policies etc  that will no doubt materialise to be properly assessed.

After a number of years , the Government / people can reassess based on the proper facts of Remain and the Leave reality.

That is democracy in action and what the people voted for in 2016.

'undefined state'

How exactly were the leavers supposed to present a fully worked out deal in 2016 ?

Was the EU prepared to provide negotiators for several months to work out a deal for the hypothetical scenario in which Britain voted to leave ?

Who would the EU have negotiated with exactly ?

People voted to leave precisely without knowing exactly how it would work out in terms of deals etc. They just felt we would be better off out come what may.