Another EU referendum is required

I doubt will be any need for 2nd referendum for the minority to get their wishes.

Fully expect Brexit to be the softest of Brexit possible.

UK to pay £5+bn a year & keep all existing rules - so free trade & free movement.
Will lose MEPs but effectively still in EU. Basically a Nick Clegg Brexit.

Another general Election could change that - as it stands I can't see Parliament agreeing to leaving the EU in any meaningful way.

I agree with the last sentence, but think that we are sick of voting for now.

My guess is that we will quickly agree a deal that is basically only slightly different from the current arrangement with the EU.
They will never get anything else passed in Parliament.

A few little tweaks  here and there to try to pacify the Tory right and ex-Ukip folks,.. and then business as usual.

When challenged, the Government will simply blame the limp deal on the voters !

The young have just voted for massive re-nationalisation.

That wouldn't be possible if we remained in the EU.

So why would the young vote to stay in EU?

We must now prevent the "firm within a firm" getting a crash Brexit and work towards the Second Referendum.

we should only have a second referendum if it asks the people this question..
do you, or do you not want to stop free movement of people, irrespective of anything else.

there is no point in having a second referendum unless this is asked.

You'll lose bigger on a second referendum than you did the first time. Especially without a project fear to sway people into remaining.

Project fear was the only reason the vote was as close as it was.

Where's that WW3 Cameron was predicting?

Neither of the parties who got 83% of the vote offered a second ref (even on the deal).

The libdem vote would be up if people wanted another ref on anything.

This election was not about Brexit. It was about Corbyn copying Trump and campaigning to the masses offering populist policies.  To do well you have to tap into the culture of the target population and tell them what they want to hear.

The differences were:
1. Trump was pro-work/business and Corbyn was pro-welfare and handouts.
2. Trump won and Corbyn lost.

The young who voted Labour did so not because of nationalisation but because Corbyn bribed them with free university education...£9k a year for 3 years is a huge handout. The better educated youngsters also don't really care about immigration and free movement;they've grown up in Europe and are much more multi cultural than the old fogeys who post on here (including me of course). I reckon another referendum would get at least a 60:40 Remain vote with many more youngsters voting . Corbyn for all his faults has at least opened the eyes of the under 30 year olds to the virtues of voting in a democracy.

Jun 10, 2017 -- 5:52AM, posy wrote:

The young who voted Labour did so not because of nationalisation but because Corbyn bribed them with free university education...£9k a year for 3 years is a huge handout. The better educated youngsters also don't really care about immigration and free movement;they've grown up in Europe and are much more multi cultural than the old fogeys who post on here (including me of course). I reckon another referendum would get at least a 60:40 Remain vote with many more youngsters voting . Corbyn for all his faults has at least opened the eyes of the under 30 year olds to the virtues of voting in a democracy.

Precisely!

Im not sure she'll have to compromise her brexit strategy too much. The most popular manifesto in the GE says we leave the single market.

Shes got less chance of getting a deal through parliament now but that just means we leave with no deal which was always a strong possibility anyway.

How many people from the UK or Germany have gone to live in Romania or Slovakia do you estimate.Don't know anybody myself so think it's probably not many.

Maybe Nick Clegg will go.

Two forces will mould expectations towards the Second Referendum.
1) Horror, once the reality of Brexit impoverishment dawns on the people.
2) Demographics: as the young take over.

Team Brexit know that conditions are worsening economically, and there is a race for a stampede Brexit. The idea won't be popular in two years, they want to do the damage while they can.
Predictions of a 7 1/2% contraction of GDP owing to crash Brexit with no deal.
It is the duty of Remain Tory MPs to stop the "firm within a firm" inside their party from steering the country over the cliff.

Whatever anyone thinks, nationalisation was in the Labour manifesto as a vote winner along with the other stuff.
And it wouldn't be possible if we were in the EU.

If people think that only the young voted for Labour, and then only because of the tuition fees giveaway, that has got to be wrong.
The young were joining Labour long before they announced their manifesto and the fees giveaway.
I've no doubt many young people would have voted labour on the strength of the giveaway, but only as a percentage of the total vote.

More fiction from unitedbiscuits.

Great posts United - the issue has now become so divisive that I could see a minor Civil War breaking out if the Union Jack wearing xenophobes that want us out don't get their way.

Quite how having a few less Polish people here is better than economic meltdown (and as a business owner, I've seen enough already to be certain that is what will happen), is genuinely beyond me, but the small number of right wing Tories who want to charge us off a cliff, based on their own warped ideologies about Britain's place in the world, will cling on to Brexit for dear life, and as you rightly point out, want the damage to be done before any of the people who voted with them can take a backward glance at what economic isolation is going to do to their families' lives...

What economic meltdown?

Do you mean the one that will follow the meltdown of our public services that's underway if we spend what's needed trying to save them?

What is it about 'too many people' that these nation haters don't understand?

Right back to you, millhouse. A rare visit of truth and eloquence.

freedom of movement is a red line, red as in blood red.

there will be blood on the streets if freedom of movement is allowed to continue.

1. from a civil war which will break out on our streets when the deluded apologists (shielded by the authorities) clash with the working classes rising up to defend their families and their children's safety
2. from the continuation of atrocities, wave after wave of terrorist attacks, mass murder on a scale we have never seen before.

Platini, leaving the EU will prevent people who had the misfortune to have to grow up in some of the most oppressive regimes of modern times from coming to Britain to clean our toilets in the hope of giving their children a better future.

The Muslim fundamentalists who want to commit terrorist acts on our soil, on the other hand, are largely British Citizens...

Leaving the EU isn't going to stop those people coming in at all.

It means 'we' can control who comes in and what suits 'us'. Not be told by somebody else. If it becomes apparent we need more of any type, then we can let them in accordingly.

Leaving the EU will make us poorer and less safe.
It is not for an angry man with a crayon to draw red lines in my name.

Teresa May has performed admirably for the people the Tory Party represents. Whilst a sacrificial lamb herself she has managed to turn the EU into the modern equivalent of Hotel California-----you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave.

hysterical nonsense from people like millhouse is not helping matters. The British people voted leave the EU and this means the end of free movement of people.
Its a very sensible decision.

As Michael Heseltine has just opined, there may be a workable deal to be made with Merkel and Macron that satisfies the principle of free movement and helps to satisfy the number watchers here.
It is not too late to turn away from the madness of Brexit. It was always a gamble that only made sense if it brings the whole EU house down, the spectacle that the UK has made of itself means that prospect is further away than ever.
The DUP will not allow a "no deal" as it would mean a hard border around NI, so our bargaining position is blown.
Plus, the "coalition of chaos" is in no fit state to engage with Europe. Theresa May is shot to bits.

Leaving the EU is not dependent on the collapse of the EU, quite the opposite.

The border between N. Ireland and the republic will be no different to the border between Scotland or England and the republic.

Then, lfc1971, you have a cabal inside the Conservative party whose aim is the opposite of what you think it is.

the aim of the politicians, of all parties, is to try and stop Britain from leaving the EU, and to maintain freedom of movement into Britain.
This is the aim of the Irish republic also, nothing to do with the border.

The Irish republic knows that the logical conclusion of Britain leaving the EU means that they no longer should have the rights of British citizens to live and work in Britain...they will have to make an honest decision to stay with the EU themselves.
They don't want to make an honest decision, that's why they are throwing up dust.

unitedbiscuits

2) Demographics: as the young take over.


You obviously haven't been following those demographics, they show an aging population (one of the justifications wheeled out for mass immigration)

Old pensioners die to be replaced by larger numbers of pensioners, there's millions born between 1956/1964 yet to become pensioners who will continue to vote, and many of todays Twenty year olds will hold completely different political views when they reach Sixty.

For your wish to come true the demographics between the birth rates and death rates would need to drastically change.

Xenophobes talk about free movement of people as if it is a terrible thing but look at the obverse and how the end of free movement impinges on Irish people. A mess not of their making.

Being out of the EU would not have stopped the latest terrorist atrocity, nor the one before or the one before that.

Also, to be clear, remaining in the EU does not mean free movement of people, it means free movement of EU citizens within the EU, the same freedom Americans have to live anywhere from Rhode Island to San Diego. It is a great thing, we should not give it up lightly.

I though Ireland was an independent country, that is what they claim. Well that brings responsibilities.

In England and Scotland and Wales and Ireland we have free movement of people, as does America have free movement within America. America does not have free movement to Britain, and neither do we to America. It is important to maintain this distinction because it is a very creative and successful distinction.

Only by having separate countries, can there be this creativity and progress.

If France, and Germany and Britain are not separate, they will be diminished in everything that brings progress.

Why anyone whose income is not provided by the EU commission wants to stay in the EU has always been beyond me and nothing anyone has said recently has made me change my view in any way. The response of the EU bureaucrats to brexit will have hardened the view of many that we never want to be involved with that cesspit again. I am happy to see migration so long as it is based on some rational assessment of job opportunity, sufficient public services, housing etc. but I would prefer to see more immigration from the rest of the world and less from Europe.

Potlis - I'm nearer my pension than my prime but I promise not to become a part the sclerotic old fossil bank making up the Brexit massive.

I agree with posy, the country is 40/60 against Brexit, and that 40% covers the whole spectrum of imagination about what the deal will look like. Once the choices narrow down, as they must, we may see an overwhelming demand for a rethink.

Giving 3 1/2 million EU citizens the vote will be the icing on the stollen log.

Well, sageform, leaving the EU DOES mean more immigration from the rest of the world, and net migration of Europeans from this island.
The corollary of leaving the European family is a weakening of security - because the immigrants of the future will be farther removed from our culture and heritage.

Ub

And your demographics point?


A young man who isn't a Socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.
                                                                                                      CHARCHILL

CHURCHILL

Sorry it wasn't clear, potlis.

As time goes by
Leavers die
And Remainers become eligible to vote

its ok , it will be too late by then, we will have left ? perhaps not.

as a small aside history shows that when a country starts to defer to its young people and the older generation lose sight of the values that made a country great and peaceful and prosperous, this always brings about the end of that civilisation.

as a small aside history shows that when a country starts to defer to its young people and the older generation lose sight of the values that made a country great and peaceful and prosperous, this always brings about the end of that civilisation.





That is an interesting argument lfc - do you have any examples of this ?

I have to go and play golf, but I remember it was said by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, I think in a speech to Harvard and to America.

It was a warning .

To America, from the perspective of Russia.

Or sorry not Russia, but a Russian way of thinking, how they thought , and the values of Russian people traditionally .

Sink a few birdies lfc , make sure your swing is strong and stable

Thanks anxious

: )

ub, How are migrants from Australia, NZ, Canada, USA, Hoing Kong, Singapore or even China farther from our culture and values than those from eastern Europe? I have met many people who have visted the EU since the referendum and they tell me that the people they have met in France, Spain or wherever are split between those who wish their own country would also leave and those who have always hated the Brits and wished we had never joined in the first place. Hardly any want us to change our mind and stay in. The Euro politicians take a different view of course as they are reliant on UK to pay for their lavish lifestyle and provide an army that they can't afford to provide for themselves.

unitedbiscuits
Sorry it wasn't clear, potlis.



Well its best if you don't post what you don't understand.

Sageform's list of countries denote the top four destinations for people EMIGRATING from the UK. No reason why reason leaving the EU will change this order.

The top four non EU  countries for IMMIGRATION are
India
Pakistan
Nigeria
Bangladesh
No reason why leaving the EU will change this order.

So, in light of the 400 million Muslims living in the four countries listed above, and the problems between mainstream Islam and multi faith societies; everyone should be aware that leaving the EU endangers the security of this country.

Quite apart from the UKs shameful intention, stated in the Article50 letter, to use security intelligence as a bargaining chip against the EU.

So we're not safer outside the EU. Is there anyone left to argue that we'll be better off financially?

we can stop immigration from any of those countries, no so from the EU.
that's why we are leaving

Theoretically, but it would be economic suicide. Again, the architects of Brexit are presenting a future they can never deliver.
That is why they want a stampede Brexit.

no, if we can stop immigration it will set a good example to the rest of Europe.

Will they follow our example? of course, but they won`t be thankful they never are.
no one likes to be thankful.

No it won't, fluidity of movement is tied up with trade, hence wealth.
Of all developed countries, the UK suffers most from protectionism.

wealth has relatively little to do with free trade, or even protectionism.
we have to invent new things, in science, technology, the arts.
that's how it works.

now that's where our young people are important, they should pipe down and get working.

Funny lfc1971 knows how everything works, except real life..

people, this is a subject I understand biscuits.

Unlikely, on the evidence of your life on this forum.

we realise that  we should learn to understand our fellow human beings, look at it this way.
we are only capable of being ourselves.

"Can I be me?"
Take it you are a Whitney Houston fan, LFC.

yes of course, impossible for anyone not to be.

when you hear music, like that, the notes stab too sweetly.

something feels like it is missing when I haven't heard music, like that,
and when I hear her music I really feel that something is missing.
that's the best I can do in describing  music.

Very good lfc1971.
More prosaically, I can state that I like Whitney's melodies but not her feral growling through climactic moments.

unitedbiscuits
11 Jun 17 21:55
Joined: 27 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 7,010 | Blogger: unitedbiscuits's blog
Theoretically, but it would be economic suicide. Again, the architects of Brexit are presenting a future they can never deliver.
That is why they want a stampede Brexit.

...

Economic Suicide for who?

The big companies that want cheap labour imported from overseas OR

The millions of British workers that have seen no wage inflation for a decade despite the top 1% getting richer???????

...

The best thing is to have controlled immigration only allowing the people in that fit the jobs required. No need to let people stay for life and get unemployment benefits and pensions. Come here and work if you have a permit. No permit you leave. No job you leave.

ub, it is irrelevant whether there is net immigration or emigration from any country. The point at issue is whether the UK can decide where we allow migration from which we have not ben able to do while in the EU. The problem has arisen because some other EU countries make refugees unwelcome so they all want to come here. Why do you think that a migrant arriving in the sunny south of France makes his way to Calais to live in cold wet England? If it was only about EU citizens it would not be nearly as much of an issue. If we had totally free movement there would be 100 million here within 12 months.

A hundred million!

Last year - being full members of the EU - less than 20,000 were granted asylum.

Keep it honest, sageform, please.

I meant if we copied Ms Merkel and advertise that we are open to anyone to come here. I don't think I am exaggerating in those circumstances.