How Should I Vote? - The EU Debate : tonight BBC1 8pm

Not sure they would be allowed to under EU law.

Good show. The BBC to be commended for getting the younger demographic engaged and, most importantly, voting.

It was terrible. Hardly any decent points from the four old folks on the panel. Seemed like half the undecideds were already for leave as well.

Still waiting then for Alex Salmond and Alan Johnson to explain why Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are schitholes.

Well I did not watch but the idea is laudable; the more young people the BBC can encourage to vote, the better.

the one who said my parents came here and and built this country

even by the beebs standards that was a shocker

total waste of time

and if i hear another tw4t go on about roaming charges

talking about the freedom and the future of the country ffs

Seems some of the youth are still confused that being out of the EU means being out of Europe, hardly a great starting point.
Also more hyperbole suggesting foreign NHS staff are not appreciated or wanted by the Brexit camp.
Along with favouring a level points system for non EU and EU skills is apparently prejudiced against a Lithuanian doctor.
Victoria Derbyshire played her role.

the one who said my parents came here and and built this country


Yes and ironically i doubt her family came from the EU, possibly India?
So she was grandstanding the worth of non EU migrants.
The same as the Brexit camp.
She got rather shouty and was very close to pulling out the race card.
Yet Brexit would level the playing field of those of different race.

Tril,

back from the hospital in time to watch a bit of that trash show ye mentioned, afore Peaky Blinders.

Have to say that there was slightly more realism in the Blinders ( and that's as far fetched as fk, though based loosely on past reality)
than in that sh ite from Scotland.

If that's the state of the young intellectuals of Scotland, then God help us!!

Never seen so much over-emotional, irrational, wimpy fkn bollix from young folk in all me days!

Wtf has become of a once proud people?
Seeing that, there's not a bit of wonder that they failed to take the golden opportunity of INDEPENDENCE.

Instead, they seem to have become as daft and silly as their english masters want them to be.

What a crying shame!

Indeed. Thomas Shelby would have no time for the EU and their sympathisers inside our great country.

It is really worrying that the young think:

Mobile phone roaming charges are more important than the UK governing itself.
We will not be able to travel abroad if we are not in the EU.
We will not be able to study abroad if we are not in the EU.
We will not be able to get NHS staff from anywhere in the world if we are not in the EU.

Tommy looked a bit the worse for wear at the end of last night's sh it, I thought.

I have stated my case that I think the referendum will sort nothing, so I leave the punch and judy show open to the activists. They more time to waste than I have.

Good luck to all the t ossers!

The travellers and the Irish will never be defeated!

The travellers may have a herbal remedy for the superbugs.

So UKIP are pro-commonwealth immigration and anti-Euro immigration? Can anyone find me a UKIP supporter who is in favour of immigration from African countries, India and Pakistan?

we welcome anyone from any nation as long as they are coming here with a skill that is in short supply in the UK. Non EU citizens would no longer be discriminated against as is the case now

What about French, German, Italian, Polish  in jobs here that could be filled by English? Are they staying or to be deported?
Would the same criteria apply

Just had a look at UKIPs website: 
Irish, French, Italians etc living here would be invited to apply for British citizenship.

EU citizens living in the UK will be given the opportunity to seek permanent residence and citizenship in the UK, after we leave the EU.

That is policy, isn't it Burton Brewers?

the policy at the last election was EU citizens will be given the chance to seek permanent right to reside and citizenship in the UK if we leave, anyone who then commits a criminal offence or joins a terrorist organisation would be stripped of citizenship of the UK.

Thanks BB. So, on a case by case basis, would eligibility be decided on which EU citizen is performing a job in which this country has a skill shortage? Like, brain-surgeon, excellent chance, waitress, not likely?

UB,

Do have any upper limit on the number of people that can come and live in the UK?

it would be decided on any citizen being able to do a job in which we have a skills shortage not just those from the EU

Sorry, InsiderTrader, Im trying to get a clear idea of how this immigration policy would work with regard to EU citizens resident here, hence I am talking with someone who knows. But do feel free to contribute detail.

Thank you, Burton Brewers. I understand now.

UB,

It is the job of UK government to decide this policy if we vote out.

Given that if we vote out the current government will be in power until 2020 it will be up to them.

What is strange about this process is that the government gave us a referendum but has not yet set out its plans for if we vote out. It will not be up to UKIP or Labour politicans what happens. It will be up to this Conversative government.

It is a total and utter disgrace that DC has not given us two firms plans. Stay in I will do X and vote out I will do Y.

Oh, if we vote out, Cameron is gone next day.

The government will have a strategy prepared for both options. They are just not telling us.

I notice you dodge all the difficult issues UB. Any thread with any substance in it and you are no where to be seen.

Housing.. you dont want to know
Real cost per EU immigrate. Do they put in more than they take out... you dont want to know
Why the government is not giving us the two planes.. you dont want to know.

* plans

Hasn't the plan for an OUT vote already been presented by Tory Ministers? Admittedly they have presented three different and contradictory plans, but why should Cameron provide another?

Because he is offering us a choice between two options. Yet he is not telling the detail of what he would do if we take the second option. The day after the referendum he could be 'battling for Britiain' to get the best deal for his country. It would be crazy if he seriously has no plan. He has a plan it is just secret.

Cameron's biggest quandary following an OUT vote would be Tuscany or Provence.

If we vote Leave, Cameron goes too.
It is the measure of the stature of the people heading Vote Leave, that their own side would prefer to send a broken man out to bat for the country. What could go wrong?

So your argument is that the government should have no plan B?

Youngsters voting YES to more  competition for their homes and jobs

Without going into the EU referendum nonsense, I'd like to point out that , imo, very few youngsters have a home that is not provided by

a) their parent(s)
b) the state or local authority
c) the private landlord.

I'm not completely sure I know what a youngster is any more; yesterday at the hospital, when I told the doctor that the problem is I'm too old, he goes " ye are only a youngster"

FFS! I'm an OAP!
If I am but a younsdter as the doctor said, then the unfortunate thi.ng is that I'll live long enough to see them bring in euthansia for old cnts.
Already, they are fkg about with the pension.
I feel really sorry for all those who didn't get theirs when they thought they would.

Some well reasoned posts there IT,it would be good to hear that question about what happens if we do vote OUT and Cameron has no plan.

Yes, what is the Vote Leave migration policy, please?
We have UKIPs position spelled out earlier in this thread, does Vote Leave differ? We're discussing the forcible repatriation of millions of people, potentially, and it's high time for Vote Leave to spell out how it is going to work.

UB, 'voteleave' will not decide the migration policy. UKIP will not decide the migration policy. The EU will not decide the migration policy. The democractically elected UK government will decide it. What part of that do you not understand?

Onto more serious issues any answers yet on current issues (not forecasts):

1. Do EU migrants take more out then they put in when health, education and infrasture is taken into account?

2. Have an extra 330,000 people (180,000 from EU uncontrolled) a year put up house prices making shelter less affordable four our young/paid people.

3. Will wages for lower paid worker go up as Lord Rose (head of remain campaign) suggests? Have EU migrants forced wages down for low paid workers?

3. Has more a less power gone to Brussels in the last 5/10/15/20.. years?

4. How much influence does the UK have in an already two speed Europe (Euro ins and outs)?

5. Has the Eurozone GDP per capita gone down 10% 2010-2015 while USA, UK, and Asia has grown 10%?

6. Who has benefitted more the last 40 years while we have been in the EU.. the workers or the owners of capital?

But the democratically elected government will be populated with different figures after a leave vote, and headed by Vote-Leave leaders. They are asking us for their vote, they have to present a picture of what we would be voting for, what their slogan means, since immigration is their main concern. The UKIP position is clear, does the Vote-Leave position differ in any detail?

Or, to put it another way, what do you, as Outers imagine you are voting for in terms of migration policy. If it is the UKIP model, say so; if different, in what detail?

The voteleave tories are not a majority of the MPs at Westminster. They are not the government. They will not decide policy.

Any thoughts on the real issues UB?

It is the real issue. No use pretending that the vote will not have consequences. Forget the crippling economic cost and the administrative undertaking involved in changing their status, there is a human cost: Vote out and the lives of 3 million EU nationals living and working in the UK and 1.7 million Brits living freely abroad will be determined by migration policy mandated in that vote. Is it the same as UKIP policy? In what detail would it differ?

It is the real issue. No use pretending that the vote will not have consequences. Forget the crippling economic cost and the administrative undertaking involved in changing their status, there is a human cost: Vote out and the lives of 3 million EU nationals living and working in the UK and 1.7 million Brits living freely abroad will be determined by migration policy mandated in that vote. Is it the same as UKIP policy? In what detail would it differ?

Nothing will change for two years. There is a two year transition period while the democractically elected government of the UK will decide on these matters. Do you think that the UK is not capable of deciding policy for itself?

You are allowing yourself to be side tracked from the important issues. Any thoughts on those?

I have addressed all of your eight points on here, at different times. Right now my concern is migration policy. Imput valued from all who intend to Vote-Leave. Do you wish to vote in UKIPs immigration policy (which I will copy and paste below) or a different Vote-Leave policy (Google finds only slogans, no content)?

For "Nothing will change for two years," read "Don't know what I want but I know how to get it." Lol.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_launches_immigration_policy

EXTRACT ON CITIZENSHIP

Save for current applications and Highly Skilled Workers, approved asylum and family reunion, there will be no permanent leave to remain permitted outside of the new policy rules
Existing EU citizens will be offered the opportunity to seek permanent right to reside and citizenship in the UK when Britain leaves the European Union

Are you all hunky-dory with this?

Poor biscuits, still thinking it's a referendum on immigration and single market membership which is a combined EU and non-EU agreement. Oh dear. The majority of MPs want to remain in the Single Market area, and they are not having by-elections any time soon.

The question on the ballot is about leaving the EU. Nothing else.

I'm assumed those voting out do have some idea of what, in fact, they are voting for. Here's what bongo was dreaming at the beginning of the month,
the dream outcome is to stay in the free trade and free movement area like NOR, SUI and ICE.

That will take a few weeks to negotiate, but the ones who'll be turning up sweating to the negotiations won't be Cameron and Osborne, it will be the cabal of European politicians rejected or unelectable in their own countries. If you've ever turned up to a negotiation holding all the cards, it's an unbelievably good feeling.
Possibly the comedy post of the year. Wake up bongo, Cameron and Osborne won't be negotiating anything if we vote leave. But seriously, Brexiteers, you must have some idea of what you want with regard to immigration policy. Tell me what it is.

What is your vision of immigration policy, if it differs from UKIP?

Cameron has said he will continue as Prime Minister after brexit.
If he is overthrown, Conservative MPs will start the choice of a new leader. The majority of Conservative MPs are in favour of staying in the Single Market Area which has non-EU and EU members.

The ballot paper asks if you want to leave the EU. Nothing else.

unitedbiscuits
28 May 16 09:18
Joined: 27 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 4,656 | Blogger: unitedbiscuits's blog
I have addressed all of your eight points on here, at different times.

.............

No you have not. You avoid looking at the current situation and prefer to play mystic meg into the future.

Do you gamble UB? I assume so given we are on a betting website.

When you place a bet about the future do you look at history (past form) or do you just guess as to what might happen....

I shouldnt bet because the horse might fall
I shouldnt back team A because team B might score a goal

etc

You must never place a bet because you are a scaredy-cat of what might happen if you make a decision. What do you do pick random numbers or let others pick for you?

Assess the form and take control. To access the form of the EU we can only look at what has happened and make an educated guess.

You refuse to address the costs of the EU on the UK and how the trend is for this to grow.

The English people have some jokers among them!

The recession will worsen regardless of any referendum.

You both are saying you're going to vote for something whereby not only do you not know the outcome but also have no idea what you want the outcome to be.
Other contributors are welcome. The only one with concrete proposals, so far, is Burton-Brewers. How does your immigration vision differ from his, if it all?

Total Brian Rix!
Farcical!

A once-great nation reduced to this.

None of the fkrs seem to have a scooby.

Hope the remainers know what immigration policy they are voting for, are they voting for a continuation of the current mass immigration, which the remain campaign claims has been very beneficial to the Country, or are they voting to limit immigration to the tens of thousands which the remain campaign claims to be essential, although why they would wish to curtail such a success story they cannot say.

The country has an immigration policy, anyone can reference it. Vote-Leave want - exist some say - to change this policy. The migration issue is considered to be Vote-Leave's best chance to appeal to voters. So Leave voters may reasonably ask, what are we changing, in respect of immigration policy? Detail, please.

If you are decided on Out, do you champion UKIP's immigration policy, or something different?

If we stay in the EU is going to go through a massive period of change as it integrates further and removes national borders,do we honestly know what the remain campaign offers as most of my life the EU has been steeped in deceit ? London's fiancial centre moves to Frankfurt,Turkey is invited in and Westminster ceases to exist ?? Who knows what the next 2 years brings,our Treasury cant even forecast three months accurately,nobody knows.

UB, if you are asking what I would prefer personally it would be visa free travel for holidays as has always been the case. Studying would be easy. If you are retiring than the same arrangements as before. My grant Aunt retired to Spain no problem in the 1970s before they joined the EU.

But if people want to work I would prefer to have it as work permits based on the skills needed. You cannot stay unless you work and you would have to have own health care until you had contributed enough to the system. Those here before June 23rd could stay if they are working. i.e. line is drawn at that point to get back control.

I would like to stop the discrimation that favours premdominatley white Europeans over the populations of the rest of the world. I always prefer things to be on merit and on need for genuine refugues rather than favouring one group over another.

That would be my starting point. Then you have to do a trade deal and see what kind of worker movement between countries is the optimal thing to do for that. The point is you take back control and have a mature debate about it over the next two years. Control is the key rather than be dictated to.

If we do not take back control we need massive extra investment in social care, housing, schools, pension provision and hospitals going forward to cope with the expanding population of workers who:
1. Do low paid work that does not cover costs if you include health, education etc.
2. Take jobs that leave our workers claiming benefits.

Ask youself if we were not in the EU would unlimited skilless immigration from Europe be the optimal solution?

Claiming to have a policy- reducing immigration - whilst doing nothing to bring it about is a deceit in itself, problem is six years on and no ones buying it.

All I keep hearing about in the In campaign is about the EU protecting Workers rights etc.Maternity Pay & 4 weeks holiday etc.It makes my blood boil.
Because since Blair & his New Labour & the EU all we seem to have got in Labour reforms is Zero hours contracts,loss of overtime at weekends & Employment agencies.The problem with free movement within the EU isn't racist.It is just pure mathematics.How can we cure unemployment when we get more new workers in from the EU than new jobs.
In Lincolnshire I would guess that 99% of the unskilled jobs that are available go out to Agency workers,that are paid minum wage % absolutely no employment rights what so ever.

The local Chicken Processing factory at Anwick employs getting on for 2000 workers,which is a big employer in a rural area.
Every village had dozens of people working there.The jobs there were unskilled but used to pay decent above the minimum wage salaries.They laid on buses to & from work,had a subsidised cateen & lots of overtime etc,excellent holiday pay & pension schemes.Many people in my area left school & worked there for there entire working life.Now I do not know a single person that works there.

Since 2005 the wages are now less than they were 11 years ago.The canteen is normal prices & the bus service has now gone.Within the space of 11 years the percentage of actual contracted local people now is approx 5%-10% & that is just the near retirement age locals & management.The rest of the workforce are all Agency Workers taken in on a day to day basis.The change to Overtime pay is that you must work 37 hours a week before receiving it.So in theory you can still get Double time on a Sunday.This is a 7 day a week operation etc.But now what they do if the need you in on a Sunday is that they give you say Thursday off & that means that you then do not qualify.The chance of getting overtime now is basically zero.Because they just get Staffline to bring in more Agency staff.The 2 Agencies have portocabins at the factory & at the start of every shift they have 100's of people waiting outside & they choose who they want & send the rest home.
It is a situation that you would have thought was from the 1950's not the 21st century.Also 99% of the Agency workers are Eastern European or other foreign nationalities.
This is just an example of 1 change that has happened in Lincolnshire.In Boston over 50% of the towns population are non UK borne & the wages that they pay on all the farms there are now lower than what they used to pay 25 years ago.They used to be really well paid jobs & now they pay less than the minimum wage because it's piece work.
Because the jobs are so low paid,virtually all of these workers qualify for Working tax credits & housing benefits.So they are not paying taxes & are receiving funding from the UK.
Also because of Tax credits nobody will work overtime because every extra £ that they earn is deducted from there Tax credits,so there is no benefit to them.

The common theory is that employers will not employ British workers because they will not work hard enough.This is rubbish.The real reason is that by employing Agency workers from Eastern Europe means that they can treat them like disposable slaves.
99% of the UK's unemployed people would work just as hard if they were employed with a proper contract & paid a living wage.

I think that the Zero hours contract is 100% the worst thing that has happened to the normal working class person in my 55 years on this planet & the biggest scandal is that this all happened while in the so called protection of the EU & under the New Labour  (Champagne Socialists)Government.

I am a dyed in the wool Tory & a massive Margaret Thatcher/Ronald Regan fan.
But Blair was probably more right wing than Maggie & as for Cameron.He isn't even  a proper tory & Maggie wouldn't have allowed him in the party etc.He's done more U turns in the last month than Maggie did in her whole political career.He is Slippery & a Serial Porkie Merchant.He is virtually a clone of Tony Blair & has no substance what so ever.

Surely the fact that we are creating new jobs should be the answer to are unempolyment problems.If we pay less Jobseekers that should mean less Austerity.etc.
Surely the pure Maths should tell us that just bringing in 100,000's of migrants from the Eu that just take mainly unskilled jobs.That do not generate any taxes.Mean extra Tax Credits & Housing Benefits.Then Educating there children,stRain on the NHS etc.
Then for every one of them that does not come here surely means another job for a local & the saving of 15,000 a year for every person off the Dole.

If there was a million less EU workers & a million off the Dole,that's a saving of 15 billion + & my guess with regards to national insurance numbers issued is that there are more than 5 million here already.
That means at 65 million population 8% less houses,schools & hospitals.

Lincolnshire Police which is a relatively small force,spent getting on for a million pounds 2 years ago on translators.Dont know last years figures.

I could go on for hours I am that mad,but they tricked us (Heath & his gang)all those years ago & it looks like they might do it again & the scary thing is that this will be our last chance to get out.
I think that the EU will colapse in the next 5 years & if we are in it will take us with them.
Even if it does not,we then have the chance then that Turkey & Albania will be joining us.We would them probably end up with a larger population than Germany.Even if we do not accept the millions of Refugees.As soon as they have EU passports they can come here no questions asked.
We will soon be more crowded than Hong Kong.

Sorry for the ramble,roll on the 24th of June.

Mark Steward.

A brilliant post.

InsiderTrader - thank you for the fulsome answer. It's clear that at least three immigration positions sit within the Vote Leave campaign. There is an immovable lump of people who cannot be taken off the 1.6 m unemployment figure, so we cannot do without most of the 3m EU nationals living and working here without shrinking the economy, as you seem to acknowledge. But who's to say we won't need another 3m over the next decade? It should not be feared, the U.K.  pre-eminence as a world power coincided with an explosive growth of population. Claims that "we're becoming more crowded than Hong Kong"  are just false. There's plenty of room. We need to build more schools, houses and hospitals and rediscover a "can do" attitude to problems, rather than shrink from the world.

When Britain led the world it had a population explosion, not because of immigration, but because it lead the world in science, medicine, inventiveness and agriculture.
It is disastrous and idiotic to think that by increasing thepopulation you will then become more inventive and more prosperous. The population can only increase if a country has the agricultural land and industry to support it.
The question is why, since joining the EU, has Britain lost its ability to lead the world in science and art and industry etc.
Of course Britain may need more workers if by some miracle we have a modern industrial revolution.
Anythings possible, I read it somewhere.

Very fine post by Real Deal.

What do you want to do with the 3m largely unskilled EU nationals currently living in the UK, lfc71?
I

Well unitedbiscuits I am extremely rude, I would ask them to go home.

Cheers.

You`re welcome.

What do you want to do with the 3m largely unskilled EU nationals currently living in the UK, lfc71?


There will still be a need for unskilled labour from the EU, especially in care work ( you can't force people to be carers, or else you end up with more scrotes in this sector.
I suppose the ideal situation for the Brexit side is some kind of priority for local workers in warehouses, factories and recruitment agencies had to quota their books so 100 workers were given 40 hours a week rather than 150 workers given 26 hours a week, just to keep them on their books for peak season.

Ye all are still just recounting the ills of capitalism, and trying to scapegoat.

Capitalism has always wanted cheap labour.

If like me, ye don't like it, do something about it.

Superb post Real Deal. Yours is just one local example, but make no mistake, there will be hundreds of other similar examples in towns across the country. However, those in the Westminster/London bubble either don't see it, or just don't get it!

Thankfully I'll be away in Turkey on the beach for pretty much the last 2 weeks of campaigning and polling day itself, so my neighbour is proxy voting for me.

Given that Cameron seems to think we will sink without trace with a leave vote, I've told the wife we may end up having to fly into Paris on Sat 25th June and walk/swim home from there

A massive thatcher and Reagan fan he says , anybody admiring them two idiots needs a wide berth

Immigration should be on our own terms. We decide who we want, why why we want them and for how long.

I would say that's fairly simple..

The basic law of demand and supply means any economy should do what it can to control an oversupply of labour and demand for housing and public services.

If it doesn't, wages go down, house prices go up, public services suffer, leading to high taxes to pay for the increased need.

A 10 year old should be able to understand that but sadly most on the Remain side cannot or won't.

So you decide when you want them, for how long , and why , it sounds as if you dealing with pieces of meat , same as thatcher the doctor I want , the day I want , the hospital I want , that's the old tory mantra me me me  and greed greed greed,

sounds like the board policy at ManUre those Manc spivs

unitedbiscuits
29 May 16 01:16
Joined: 27 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 4,664 | Blogger: unitedbiscuits's blog
InsiderTrader - thank you for the fulsome answer. It's clear that at least three immigration positions sit within the Vote Leave campaign. There is an immovable lump of people who cannot be taken off the 1.6 m unemployment figure, so we cannot do without most of the 3m EU nationals living and working here without shrinking the economy, as you seem to acknowledge. But who's to say we won't need another 3m over the next decade? It should not be feared, the U.K.  pre-eminence as a world power coincided with an explosive growth of population. Claims that "we're becoming more crowded than Hong Kong"  are just false. There's plenty of room. We need to build more schools, houses and hospitals and rediscover a "can do" attitude to problems, rather than shrink from the world.

...

I dont not acknowledge that. But I dont think you can deport people that have made this country their home, had kids here etc after the last decade plus. I would like to switch to a work permit system based on the need of the country going forward. Can you not see it makes more sense that taking anyone regardless of the need of the UK?

Now UB any chance you can address the real issues such as the cost of unlimited EU migrants on jobs, job security, housing affordability, doctors waiting lists, hospitals etc. DO you not realise when all these costs are taken into account it costs the UK money to have EU migrants here. At least acknowledge that one point that anyone (man, woman or child) that makes less than about 30k p.a. takes out more than they put in.

anxious
29 May 16 11:35
Joined: 14 May 15
| Topic/replies: 6,094 | Blogger: anxious's blog
A massive thatcher and Reagan fan he says , anybody admiring them two idiots needs a wide berth

...

anxious, who do you think has been our best PM since 1979? Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown or Dave?

none of them , they are all puppets of the establishment, fleet street and the banks

and the multinationals that also control the EU.

Is the drift on?
Cameron further exposed on a daily basis.
1.24 - 1.35 by next Thursday

I said that I was a big fan of Thatcher/Reagan because at least in there time,you 100% completely understood what they stood for & they actually stood by there principles & got stuff done.
I would also add that probably my next choice would be Tony Benn even though I really didn't agree with many of his Policies.I admired him for his honesty,which never really changed in the decades that he was around.If he had done whatever the population had seemed to want at the time,he would almost certainly been Labour Leader & probably Prime Minister.

I think that when you had a Tory Party like Margaret Thatcher & a Labour Leader like John Smith for example everybody knew the score & where there loyalties stood etc.
As I said Blair was 100% Tory,ffs Peter Mandelson now lives in Chelsea.Those Champagne Socialists sold us down the River & now do not give a s**t about what happens to the UK.David Milliband keeps popping his head up with his thoughts (From his Millionaire new life in New York.Didn't get his own way & threw his toys out of his pram.Loads of other unemployable MP'S from all sides all just shuffle off to Brussels & the EU gravy train.
The EU is to Politicians what Celebrity Big Brother & the Soaps are to failed Actors & Actresses,but with bigger wages & pensions etc.
I am told that EMP's pay less than 20% tax on there salaries & still get Duty Free when they are to & froing Brussels.There salaries are much greater than MP's are paid in Westminster.

To sum up what I think of the EU is that it means Cleaners/Nannies/Gardners/Chaffeurs & cheap labour for the elite & then Zero hours contracts & absolutely no job security & continuing poorer services for the rest of us little people.

Remember Margaret Thatcher did some good stuff & also many terrible things to us when she was in Power for sure but at least she also was the one in charge of the Thatcher/Reagan love affair,she wagged the tail.
Blair was just basically Bush's Bitch & faithfully just did as he was told.The truth will hopefully come out soon,but unfortunately after the Vote.

Thing is though,she was a Right Wing Tory,so to me that was no big surprise to how she govererned us.
Mr Blair & his like were supposed to have been going to save us all from the Tory Tryranny but he Bankrupted this country with his short term policies & the million + zero hours contracts that came in,on his watch.

We all got new schools/hospitals/community centres etc.But they were all paid for with Private Equity schemes that are children will all be paying for ever & a day.All bought on tick.
When Brown was in power we were basically borrowing from Government equivalent of Wonga loans.Now all the UK PLC's Credit Cards are maxxed out & we are in the S**t.
If we had ditched the £ we would now probably be in bigger trouble than Greece.
Austerity is now accepted as our only choice of getting straight again.But Surely the way to pay our bills is to get everyone back to Work.If we are creating all of these jobs them surely saving on Unemployment Benefits is a great way to start.More money coming in & less money going out,not rocket science I know,but must have Merits.

Instead of telling all of our children that they can become Nuclear Scientists/David Beckhams Physio/Editors of Fashion Magazines or Marine Biologists.We should encourage more to go too Tech College & become Brickies & Nurses.
The News last week that hardly warranted a mention was that the NHS had spent nearly 4 billion on Agency Staff.Am I mad (Probably)but wouldn't investing in our own kids to get trained up for these shortages make sense.It would be no more expensive than sending them to Uni.
This country condemns Football for importing Foreign players instead of bring through our own youngsters.But that is what this country is doing in every area of employment.

Problem = Millions of Jobs,Millions of unemployed.Virtually no future proper employment prospects for the young school leavers.

Answer = Spend billions of pounds training the UK's Unemployed to fill the vacancies in every Area (Agency Nurses problem,Train more Nurses.Teacher shortage = Train more teachers.Housing shortage = Train more Plumbers/Sparkies/Brickies etc.)Simples.Not an overnight fix,but quicker than commities debating issues for years at £300 an hour in Government Departments.

Nursing/Teaching & the Building Industry etc wont make people millionaires.But for most of us little people just want 40 hours or so a week,maybe some paid overtime working & being able to pay our bills etc.Not much to hope for.I want to hope that my children have a future if they study &work hard for it.But it's all doom & gloom & the end of the World stuff.

I really apologise if my post is all over the place & probably filled with bad punctuation etc.But it's a Bank Holiday weekend & I should be out & about with my children.They are actually at Butlins Skegness with Grandad & Grandma.But I am sat here worrying about my families & your future.
& not be terrified about week to week,hand to mouth survival.

I am not for stopping Immigration,I think every penny that we pay in Overseas Aid should be spent of Medication & feeding starving children in the 3rd World etc.

But we need to fix our society 100% as well to be able to be all things to everyone.

Surely being in charge of our own destiny has to be the answer.

I know that I will now get lots of Negative views now on here,but these are just a few simple thoughts of a Working Class Bloke worring about the Future of his family & the UK which as we speak is on the verge of self destruction.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. The problem is politicans are short-termist for two reasons:
1. Voters are short-termist so they would rather borrow and have something now rather than invest in the future.
2. The politicans real money starts after they move on to work for corporations/the EU/IMF/World Bank/UN or whatever it is.

Top post again Real deal.

Reliance on agencies – at a cost of up to £1,800 per day per nurse

- From the Guardian. Re Real Deal's comment about NHS's reliance on agency nurses.

Nice work if you can get it.

Yes plus paying the agency about a thousand , in the above post he seems to blame blair for a lot and I agree I was no fan of his bowing down down to the banks and the city ,  you forgot though  to mention Thatcher who destroyed  what industries we had left in the 80s by closing them and creating over 4 million unemployed . all she done was create division and bitterness , im no fan of the EU either but its a bit rich coming from the right wing of the tory party to blame the EU for all our problems

them manc spivs

Exactly,that's the point.The Elite can only prosper under the EU & for that reason it's not surprising that they fancy staying in.

But I just do not get why us normal Joe Public seem to think that it's all good for us.They hark on about "Workers Rights" but what workers rights have we gained.We have been in this Super Club for 40 + years & they say maternity pay & 4 weeks paid holidays etc.
But All the good stuff that the unions got for us after the War have been gradually eroded away so that we are worse off than in the 50's.As I have said,the zero hours contracts are in 1 stroke.Making an employee a slave to big business.With the thought that behave & you'll be fine & moan about it & you will be on a few hours a week evenings & weekends with no overtime etc.

I do not know of any jobs available today unskilled that are offering proper amount of guaranteed hours & overtime rates that I thought was proper normal working practice in the 70's/80's & 90's.I am not saying that the EU brought all of these things about.They probably didn't,but they didn't protect us from them.So what's there point.
I remember that song a long time ago.Which was "The Working class can kiss my ass,I've got the Foremans job at last."

They say that we will not be able to trade the same & that they will impose tarrifs upon us.
I kind of think that if they did we would obviously do the same to them.But we import far more from the EU than we export etc.
What do we sell to the Germans,I cannot think of much to be honest.They say that they will Tarrif Nissans.But as Germany sells 1 in every 3 cars in the uk (Skoda/VW/BMW/Mercedes/Audi) France 1 IN 5 CARS (Citreon/Renault/Peugeot).
I travel to France a lot & I have been to Germany a few times & you don't see to many Micra's on the road over there.In France I reckon 75% of there Cars are French Built.So the Trade barriers do not worry me to much.

I get why they are so hung up on Free movement.Because they have land borders,so even if they didn't want Free Movement they couldn't really stop it.It's the same as we do driving into Wales & Scotland etc.

Does anyone really think that the EU are going to halt there slide into oblivion with just Germany propping them up.They have Greece now,but Spain,Portugal,Italy.Ireland etc all really on the verge of the abyss & if those countries are struggling.I can only guess how the Eastern European states like Bulgaria,Romania,Poland,Lithuainia,Estonia are going to cope.
Because if all of them are going to be ok,then probably we are.But that is never going to be the case.

Then there is exactly how most of all of these countries think about the UK.Since Blair & his War Mongering ways,our Reputation is absolutely shot in all of Europe.

You only have to watch the European Song Contest to see how they think about us.It's probably abit of a mad comparison but bear with me.
Over the past 15 years we have gone from being one of the most successful countries in it winning or being in the top 4 or 5 to basically becoming a joke nil pois outfit.
Having probably the best music industry in the World after the USA.We have tried every trick in the book.Famous Pop groups & even Andrew Lloyd Webber & nothing.I know that it's just a really Kitch silly event.But how have we gone from Hero to Zero.I just think that it's just a general way that the rest of the EU think about us.

I am not for stopping Immigration or sending anyone home.That's just Stupid,But if the Dam is leaking water.The way to sort it,is not to just build it bigger.But to fix the leak.

I think that we should leave the EU.Sort Unemployment out properly,as I really think that it is mostly the root to all our evils & it is a way of keeping us all down.

Instead of all this short term doom & gloom behaviour & never ever sorting anything out properly.
Set about training everyone to fill these black holes that we have in the NHS/Education/Building Industry/Social Services etc.We seem to be just stuck in a never ending cycle of perpetual financial Woe.

They hack on about 10 billion wasted paying subs to the EU.But one little mention last week about nearly 4 billion for Agency Nurses.How many billions do we spend a year on servicing Interest on our National Debt.Billions on Private Equity schemes that built half the Schools & Hospitals in the UK etc.
We lose billions a year in lost Vat revenue because the likes of Ebay etc have there registered European Offices in Luxembourg just to save 2.5% & that's nothing compared to Big Business registered in say Ireland to pay less corporation Tax etc.

I really do believe that we could be as prosperous as Germany if we got our priorities right like they have.

I had a grand on my Baclaycard & used to just pay the minimum payment every month by DD.As it was only a small amount every month & I always concentrated on the Rent/Council Tax etc.I just religiously paid it & never really gave it to much thought.I paid it off recently (Hooray) anyway I was talking to a m8 about my very best friend ever (Daisy the Whippet)she lived til she was nearly 17.She cost me £500 in 1995.
It was latter when I remembered that I paid for her with my Barclay card(Best £500 I probably ever spent).So I then for the 1st time thought about exactly how long I had that debt for.With a few other bits & bobs it was well over 18 years & cost me many times more than the initial Grand.I had many occasions when I could have paid that off in full.But it was never really in my thoughts enough to qualify as a priority.Now that is probably why I am 55 years old & not a squillionaire.I'm a numpty etc etc.

But our Amazing Wonderful Country is not anything like that & I am pretty sure they are a lot more competent in monetary matters etc.

But since Champagne Socialism (New Labour).Tony Blair having definitely the longest honeymoon period of any Politician in History.Everyone in power just seems to want to Emulate that theory.The only problem being that he blew all of our cash & maxxed the Credit cards & borrowed heavy from Wonga & Co.

The only reason that the Economy has survived this long is because of virtually zero % interest rates.
The Powers that be,will have you believe that it has been for all of our good & aren't they really amazing for this record low etc.

But that's Boll*cks,it's because they are the biggest Debtors & a rise in interest rates would cripple virtually every Western World economy & bring down lots of them with it.

They seem to think that just getting more & more money in will solve it.But it's not,you have to get a grip of your own finances.Not by punishing the masses with negative cuts.Which just bring misery & short term fixes.It is about trying to turn a negative into a positive.Again not Rocket Science.

An old wealthy friend once told me that the secret to his Success was to on a daily basis,alway put a plus in the box at the end of every day.He meant that as long as you always earnt a penny more than you spent each day that you couldn't go wrong.

Take one person off the dole,give him a proper job not subsidised by Tax Credits & instead of paying him a fortune in Benefits & Housing etc.You pay him nothing & you will get a few quid off him & then on to the next.How many off the dole when we train them up & then get them Blood sucking Agencies sent into the History books where they belong.Better NHS & Schools & lots more houses for us & then lower rents etc etc.

We would be a much greater help to the rest of the World if we were stronger & financially viable at home.

Here endeth the ramble.

I agree with you Anxious 100% but then was a totally different time.Alot of what she did was bad & divisive.But also a lot had to change as well.
But the fact is that we had got over all of that.It was long enough in the past to be history.
Also that is kind of what you get with Right Wing Policy etc.

Mr Blair was supposedly going to be our saviour & for a while it seemed to be true.
I am not surprised when a toff is uncaring to the little people.But when supposedely one of our own does it.Surely that makes him a Class Traitor.

It was on his watch that Zero Hours contracts became the norm & they affect every part of the Mainstream Jobs markets & in one single stroke takes away every right that any employee ever had.
Empoyee's now are just as disposable as badly bought stock.

I really do not understand how they could ever be considered & be the norm in the Modern World & how long before Work houses are restored.How the f**k have we come to this & food banks etc.

Yes Real deal I can agree with you on many of the things you say but this country will not be allowed to leave the EU there is far too much money that the city and the banks and the Establishment have invested into this private bankers club , the result is already a foregone conclusion because the system is broken and bent

We also live with the fact that because of all of this misspent 30 years.That the Younger generation have to go into debt for 10's of 1000's of pounds just to get a degree that probably means nothing at the end of it.

I used to enjoy reading the Paper & News every day.More often than not it used to cheer me up.
But now it is all doom & gloom.Whatever happened to a brighter future & great hope for our Children.

I was born in 1961 & I reckon up until 2000 I thought that although things were never perfect.Every year was better than the last.This gave me a really great feeling for the future & my Childrens future.
Now there just isn't anything really to look forward too.It's all f**ked up big style.
Politicians would try to sell you a dream.But now they just say that we wont be quite so bad as the rest of the opposition.

What future does the World have when the Future of the USA for example Trump or Hilary Clinton.

If it wasn't for my kids I would just s**** & watch us deservedely self destruct.

Real deal: Are you wringing your hands for the workers who assemble Apple products in China for a fraction of the reward of migrant workers here, or the sight of Reaganism/Thatcherism on your doorstep that upsets you? The papers you read are pushing Brexit so they can light a bonfire to workers rights. You know that, don't you?

You are probably right,although I don't actually buy the Papers anymore.I just get my news off the net as it's more up to date.

I agree that the Maggie years were the start of it all.But we have had as many years of Labour since & 5 years of I'm not really sure type politics & it just seems to be a downward descent.

I do though think that when Tories were Right Wing & Labour the Left we had more of a chance of knowing who to support.

I really do not know now who to support Tory or Labour.I kind of don't mind Corbyn to be honest as he does at least seem to have integrity & that really does go against everything I have ever thought.


It's like having a Pitbull & a Poodle.You know which one to stroke & which one to Guard your House.

I just think that in these difficult confusing times we are surely best having the choice of our own destiny etc.

But it's maybe just that I  am abit of a Victor Meldrew.

But I can honestly say that I have had some fun & good times in my life & it  hasn't been too bad.
I am not quite past it yet.But I really really do care more about the future of the younger generation than my own.
I see that we still are a great country to live in just the way it is.But for future generations I just feel that self government will be the best way forward.
At least if we do not like the way we are governed we can change it at the ballot box.

Fair reply RealDeal. I'm for Remain for positive reasons but the campaign on both sides has been destructive.

The best time for me following politics was Thatcher v Kinnock.

They hated each other, were polar opposites and gave the electorate a real choice.

These days the battle for the 'centre left' is tiresome. Shadowy characters like Blair and Cameron who don't appear to have any real beliefs or principles. Candles in the wind.

Injera,your totally right with 1 exception.That is why I said John Smith instead of Neil Kinnock.I think John Smiths early passing was a real blow for real labour & probably this country.
After the Maggie years it was then that we so needed a period of proper Old style Labour type Government & readdress the balance.

I did really think that Kinnock in his time as leader of Labour that he was a man of deep Working class Principles.
Unfortunately he seemed to lose all of that integrity soon after by shuffling off to Brussels & selling his soul etc with his Wife.
He didn't do anything really memorable except getting paid a fortune more than a Prime Minister etc.I cannot recall any memorable workers rights reforms for example.

To my recollection I cannot think of any of the former Leaders of Labour or the Tories that havn't sold out one way or another apart from maybe Maggie & Gordon Brown.

I have a sneaky feeling that Cameron might have secret desires of a big job in the EU after his soon to be demised career in British Politics,possibly even Leader.
Same as that snivelling Bum boy George Osborne,he really thinks he is in with a shout of PM & that's delusional win lose or draw.

Agreed about Smith. A great loss. I guess we'll never know..

Both Kinnocks bizarrely swapped their Labour roots for the EU and as you say lost all credibility. When NK endorsed Blair it was shameful given Blair's shift to New Labour.

Only a few weeks to go now, lads and lasses.

I stick with my predictions.

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