Could Thatcher have beaten The Unions with today's Police?

oh yes the unions,,,,thousands and thousands of working people,they had to be destroyed of course

Just as well that Maggie sorted them out back then.

Someone needed to challenge the Unions, especially those who thought they could hold the country to ransom.

Better question would have been 'could she have defeated a Joe Gormley led strike by the mineworkers'? No in my opinion.

Her biggest strength in the miners crisis was Scargill.

Thatchers biggest weapon against the unions was unemployment.

It was unemployment and fear of it that cost the unions so many members.

agree

Cant agree crips, her biggest asset was the media showing Scargill, Hoppper (up here) and Mcgahey on TV. Every time they opened their mouths spouting hatred the public stopped supporting them in tens of thousands. Ed may have this level of support shortly !

from what i recall Ian MacCregor  was a bigger laughing stock than Scargill ever was , remember the footage of him walking down the street with a plastic bag over his head

Of course the right like to see the defeat of the miners as a glorious victory against trade unions which finished them off. This  is simply bullshine.

Workers didn't drop out of trade unions because of what happened to the miners, they dropped out because they wanted to keep their jobs.
People were less inclined to be union reps for fear of ending up on the dole, and others couldn't see the point in organizing themselves against the companies they worked for that were fighting for survival. 

A very significant turning point in the demise of the unions was when Derek Robinson was sacked at BL 6 months after Thatcher was made PM.
The workers decided not to support any action over this outrage against unionism, which signalled a wind of change blowing through the country.
This wind of change had started well before the miner’s futile attempts at trying to hold back the tide in the form of mine closures.
Too much is made of the effect that the miners strike had on unions, the damage had been done to worker's perceptions of unions well before the miners decided to make their final stand.

The country's perception of the unions in general had been poisoned by those who over decades had been hell bent on bringing down the democratic state and replacing it with some kind of authoritarian socialist/communist utopia. They had ruined the unions and much of British industry which in many cases was clinically dead before Thatcher arrived.

Exactly EO,

Derek Robinson was a communist, the sole aim of many like him was simply to disrupt and damage everything associated with democracy in the cause to bring it down.
The way they sought to achieve this was as usual through the left and the trade unions.

The weakness of both Heath and Wilson to deal with the union problem was the seed that was sown. Wilson was not helped by his own undermining from within, Labour party and establishment. But ultimately it was the electorate by electing governments with small majorities that gave the hard left succor.And the electorate got it right in 1979.

tobermory     09 Apr 13 00:40 
from what i recall Ian MacCregor  was a bigger laughing stock than Scargill ever was

Is this the same scargill who didn't call a vote on strike action splitting the miners. The same Scargill who called strike action at the beggining of the summer rather than the end of Autumn

The bloke was an idiot.

Scargill didn't call for a vote from the miners, because they were already split and some were already on strike, he simply made the strike official.

As for waiting for the autumn to strike, events didn't evolve like that with Scargill setting a date for a strike.
Any delay would have given the government more time to build up their coal reserves, and taken the date for the pit closures even nearer.

Scargill was not the towering colossus dictating to his members that the right make him out to be, he was simply carrying out the wishes of his members the Yorkshire miners, and the one who was paid to take the flak.

During this debate about unions, can anyone tell me of a prominent figure in
politics who was a member of the OLDEST union in the world and tried to destroy all other attempts at unionism or combines as they were once called?

What really stoked the initial furnace was the leaked document to the Economist outlining what Thatcher had mapped out to prevent the Unions from succeeding. Was it a deliberate leak to get the Unions into a heightened sense of potential unrest so Thatch could send in 5,000 coppers when the time came?

The reason we have the most DIShonest police force ever in British history is because THATCHER used them and praised them as LIONS, just a slight MISuse of the word LIARS.
This mob are now in the process of doing the same with OUR education system,
COMMUNISTS WOULD BE PROUD TO TREAT IT'S PEOPLE LIKE THIS.
THATCHER was a member of THE LAW SOCIETY which is the oldest union in the world, their history tells us that they tried many hundreds of times, to prevent ordinary working class people of creating their own unions.

People were murdered (executed) in attempts to form unions, TOLPUDDLE martyrs just a few.

Baz - so the "TOLPUDDLE martyrs" were murdered (executed)?

Must apologise getting mixed up with poll tax of 1381, never the less people died fighting injustice and THATCHER still insisted on injustice for the many over the few, hence these idiots belief that they are born to rule.

We are now in 2013 and very little has changed, yet people talk of progress
and civilization, so why do you mexico and sphincter, side with those who believe they have the right to rule and do down those who are poor?
GUTLESS springs to mind in both your cases.

Any recovery in the economy will be caused by the actions of the rich not the poor.

The poor are mere spectators.

Dr Crippen how will the rich go about causing a recovery without the poor and no so rich playing a part.

Your comment implies and is correct that benfit cuts wont make any difference to any economic recovery. So why the need to demonise the worse off in society and lay a disproportionate ammount of blame on them.

No one is demonising the poor.
The coalition government is cutting back on spending and the poor have to make some sacrifices the same as the more productive amongst us.

You can't keep hammering the workers, as Mr Cameron said ''we're all in this together.''

i just love this idea that 'the Unions' were ever in a position or had the intention  to hold 'the country' to ransom

the Unions were made up of the majority of the working people of this country (13million Union members in 1979)
... the, and their families were 'the country'.

they were asking, or, if you prefer,  demanding,  to be paid a fair price for the one-third of their lives that they spent on creating wealth for other people so that they could provide themselves and their families with food and shelter.

ok, they failed to achieve that relatively modest ambition, and now people are made to work for nothing or starve, and made destitute for having a spare room ... i suppose that's a victory for someone, somewhere

meanwhile we're collectively required to contribute £billions to a financial sector that's 'too big to fail', but of course that's not holding the country to ransom ... it's just a temporary setback on the road to economic nirvana

frankly i'd say that anyone who prefers 2013 to 1979 is insane

We are now in 2013 and very little has changed, yet people talk of progress

You are off your silly little head bazza with comments like this. Wat Tyler would have loved the welfare state benefits !

Excellent post Gus.

Thatcher smashed the unions because she had a public growing tired of their tyranny, on her side.

The political and media driven rhetoric is always absorbed by the public. They believe whichever garden path they are lead down.

13 million workers tyrannising themselves?

or a  small bunch of hereditary w@nkers determined not to lose their power and privilege?

I remember THATCHER exploding in anger over the FRENCH revolution, the people of FRANCE were wrong, she said, she even got that wrong and 200 years late.

The unions destroyed themselves, in the 70's they were going on strike because they didn't have lasagne on the menu in the canteens ! Total suicide as the memebrs allowed the demagogues like Robbo and SCargill to hijack their unions.Ambulance men and grave diggers on strike,come on lads,get real.

Groups that have an excess of power as the unions did in the seventies need to be brought into line. Thats what happened to

the unions and it is what is needed now with our over mighty financial sector.

Agree with that assessment wurzel , it would win an election if done some time next year so fresh within the minds of the electorate in 2015.

What would have happened if Thatcher had given into the Unions, where would the future have taken the miners?

I was only a kid but heavy industry was going through a transitional period by the 80`s. It had happened with the steel industry which was Ian McGregor had slim lined with manpower. What did the Unions see as the future?

If Thatcher had given into the miners and cancelled the pit closures, they would simply have closed them at a later date.
The government would have no doubt been in an even stronger position by then.
The miners strike was a waste of time.

Many of the mines would have closed before now even without Thatcher/Scargil.
It cost more money to get the stuff out the ground than it was worth.
Europe would not have been too happy with state help & Europe not a massive fan of CO2.

Did the NUM have a business plan for the industry? Did they offer to cut wages/ shut the most expensive mines etc.

I don't know about the cost of getting it out of the ground, we only have the government's figures for that, do they include the big chunk going back to the government through taxation for instance?

The true cost of closing the mines was in the money paid out in welfare for the families and communities that closing the mines threw on the scrapheap, and the money that flowed out of the country that was used to buy energy from abroad with, which was a dead loss.

Dr - if the NUM worked with the government rather than have a war they would have been in a better position to ask for a gradual closeing of mines and money invested for start up businesses. I doubt they offered to take a 20% wage cut. The UK did not need as much coal in the 80s/90s as it did in the 50s/60s.

The UK would be a leading manufacturer of pants 7 bras if the UK government was prepared to pump in loads of taxpayers money to compeat with cheaper products.

If you lose a war you can't start crying about the peace treaty.

Even as this long winter extended its grip, over 40% of Britain's electricity needs have been met by coal – the bulk of it now imported. But earlier this year came news that work on a new seam at Maltby had had to be suspended, because of unusually high levels of gas, and the pit was to be shut. On top of a disastrous fire at Europe's biggest producing mine at Daw Mill in Warwickshire and the mothballing – closure with the option of reopening later – in January of Aberpergwm drift mine in South Wales, this means that there are only three remaining deep mines left in operation in Britain. These are Hatfield and Kellingley in Yorkshire, and Thorseby in Nottinghamshire. Another Notts pit, Harworth, is currently mothballed. This means we are on the verge of losing both an irreplaceable skills base and, potentially, access to all the remaining coal. And this in a country now virtually dependent on gas and oil supplies from elsewhere; Britain was recently awaiting a gas supply ship from Qatar, after being days away from running out of supplies altogether.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/11/slow-death-coal-industry

now, as a fully paid up sandle-wearing yoghurt-knitting hand-wringing greenie i'd prefer us to be developing and using remewables, but if we're going to be burning the stuff anyway, and we're sitting on tonnes of it, we be better off paying folk to  dig it up than paying other folk to import it?

This spelling business is a real worry for you isn't it, MEXICO?
Closing and compete are the correct spellings.

Nope - spelling on a Betfair forum is not a worry for me at all Baz.
Do you feel there is something about your personality which may have made it difficult for you to find employment, or were you happy enough living off hand outs from tax payers?

we be better off paying folk to  dig it up than paying other folk to import it?


A lovely conundrum as Miliband has signed up to pay the EU billions in fines if we dont stop carbon emissions and we have the Drax power station having to change from coal to other fuels because of their EU fines prospects,just how would this balance with the greenie agenda ?

it doesn't fit the Greenie agenda, but, as the article said, we're currently reliant on coal for 40% of our eletricity right now, and as i said, we're currently sitting on tonnes of the stuff which we're too dumb to dig up.

MEXICO'S real name is RICHARD HEAD.

Germany is turning its back on nuclear power and increasing coal and gas burning in its power stations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19168574

How does that fit in with their green agenda?

I'll never be convinced that the nines were closed for economic reasons.

They were in Kent.

The coal was miles from the surface, under the sea in some cases, getting it out was prohibitively expensive.

Most people moaning about coal mines wouldn't know a miner from a black and white minstrel and wouldn't go down a pit for £1000 a day, they'd have shat themselves.

Imagine the outcry today if some of our miners were stuck underground like those in S. America.

Given this ideological targeting of the miners it is a surprise Ken Clarke, who came from a family of miners chose to join the cabinet following the strike.

According to NAO  up to 2007 , 575,000 miners received compensation of £3.6bn in total.

Somehow the admin costs (code for rich lawyers) was £1.9bn.

How much more would it have been if the NUM defeated the Thatcher government.

Would any parent wish that their son (women not allowed) to work in a coal mine?

In the ideological,whimsical minds of the deluded left wingers we need a token group of miners to still exist so they can attend Labour party conferences dressed in togs and justify their mindless ranting about right wing politicians. Let's just dig the coal up and leave it on the surface for the sake of it as burning it would cost us even more, shades of the common agricultural policy.