Poker economy ruined?

The game has become so much harder now but you can make a living multi tabling 25c/50c. There are Russians even 20+ tabling 1c/2c at a small profit and living off the rake back.

7 years ago you could print money on the tables, now you have so many training sites and tools to help your game you either have to move with the times or give up. You bring up a very valid point however. On Betfair old, I only every avoided 2 players, Wulman and 5LEEPPDONKER, 5LEEPY because he was a shove JJ+ break even player and no fun to play against and Wulfman because he was better than me and it was -ev me playing any game against him.

The first thing I do in any game is identify any multi tablers. While I don't usually avoid them, it gives me a head start to playing against them. Some will be 5LEEPY types, some will be over aggressive raising stations but most will be ABC players that are easy to read but difficult to play against.

To your original point, I was multi tabling LIMIT STT's on Stars, not because I'm a great limit player but because I know the STT formula that makes it profitable. Even then there were s few regs that were multi tabling higher stakes. Sharkscope doesn't track STTs on Stars unless you opt in but there are other tracking sites that showed me some of these players had $5k+ profit this year playing stakes as low as $3.50. In a sense I too table select, I don't really want to be in a 6 seat STT were 3 players have a 10%+ ROI.

I'm not a good Omaha player, in fact I hardly know the rules but I'm tempted to try these in STT formula and see if I can make these profitable.

I don't want to play anyone that is as good or better than me, I look for games that have added money and soft fields.

"easy to read but difficult to play against"

isn't that rather a contradiction in terms?

No, you know they multi table for a reason and that reason is they're usually profitable. They may play it ABC but they know a bit about poker and can change their game, you need to think more about these players and not just play it ABC yourself.

then they're not easy to read

They are actually the easiest players to play against in the entire world. They play push fold poker, hate playing post flop ( SLEEPDONKER is incapable of doing it),  and after you have played them a dozen times you have their calling and shoving ranges sorted. They may as well be dealt their cards face up.

Take their blinds off them at every opportunity,limp into their blinds with your monsters and force them to shove,and dont call their shoves without a hand.

If I'm sat at any STT table on Betfair at stakes under 30 dollars, I automatically assume I am the best player at the table.

I agree with Chip, sometimes I just sit at a table and I presume I'm sitting with donks and 9 times outta 10 I'm right. The 'ONLY' reason I dont make betfair my poker 'home', is simply because of the software, its that bad. Ppl might say well if its that easy and you make money playing here, who cares about software. But to me, poker is more a form of enjoyment in my spare time and the extra cash is a bonus. Ive played here the last couple of days and Ive been disconnected more times than the years Ive been on this planet. The lag is that terrible, it nearly tilts me. I pray that when bwin finally parts company, Betfair decides to move on off this network!

You've identified one of the multi tabler types I mentioned above Chip, not every reg fits that mould.

I'm sorry but I have never come across anyone playing 10 tables+ that I cant beat. I play turbos with a 15 second timebank and there is no way on Gods earth someone playing more than 6 tables has the time to do anything other than play incredibly basic strategy.

They will invariably play their hands exactly the same way,they are only interested in their 2 cards and their stack size,and almost never want to see a flop.

There is of course a huge difference between a good reg playing 3-4 tables, and a cake wh0re playing 10+.

I totally agree. I look for players that are 10+ tables that can't be playing their A game.

I use a HUD and while it hasn't improved my ROI, it has enabled me to multi table. There's definitely a sweet spot, I can play my A game while 4-6 tabling but struggle with anything more but it's all a matter of training. I think players that are also 4-6 tabling are the most dangerous - they multi table because they're profitable and can also play their A game.

The game has become so much harder because of tools used. HEM2 (which I use) has optional notecaddy software, other independent software has been adopted for notecaddy that can tell you what to exploit from a player. They spot the tendencies of players (and everyone has them) and tells you how to play against them. I don't own notecaddy or the other software but someone using these has an advantage over you straight from the off. It's not a level playing field, you either have to move with the times or find a site, game or even player that you can exploit.

The high volume STT players on here - Dr Klenk, sexysandy69_ , schummrich, are deffo using some form of software.In fact they could quite easily be bots.

Think schumm and sexy have played over 100,000 stts between them already this year, with a profit of around 8k and an average stake of about 7 bucks.

Thats a 1% ROI, which is impressive given the volume, but it would never put me off playing against them.   

I agree the game is getting progressively tougher. A few years back you could play ABC 4 tables at a time and run at 8-10% , these days its 3-5%.

How good is the Sharkscope upgrade by the way ?

The graphs are fantastic.At a click of a button I can see Ive played 1176 6 handed D2Ns with a win percentage of 57%.

A big drop from my win percentage before the switch to Ongame.

"A big drop from my win percentage before the switch to Ongame"

Do you think there is any reason why your win percentage is lower since Betfair moved to Ongame?

the lizard people are taking control...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/blatantly-obvious-ongame-bot-low-stake-sngs-1209013/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/whats-happening-ongame-504961/index242.html

I too suffered the drop and so did Wulfman (who left the site). I won 4 of my last 7 games on Betfair old and was well placed to make decent money with the changeover promotion - when the move came I didn't win a STT and failed to make the top 100.

I thought hard about your question but I'll tell you the exact reasons why.

Betfair is a gambling site and not a renowned poker site. Player on the old software were gamblers. A gambler and his money are easily parted, and us poker players didn't realise how easy it was to win on the old software.

When we moved to Ongaming, there were a bunch of savvy poker players. Guys that knew how to play and all of a sudden games became so much harder. As a STT specialist, I also noticed a change in the blind structure that even for regular games, meant more gambling and sooner in a game. I still can't beat the STT's here while I've a 12% ROI in 5,000 on Stars and I was playing Stars long after the move to Ongaming (in other words it's not me that's playing bad). There's definitely a skill in the STT's, there are players making thousands on them, just look at the Sharkscope leaderboard but I personally have worked harder on my game than I've ever done. Not a week goes by that I don't try to improve.

The MTTs have a far better structure and why I make a decent profit on them but the softest games on here are the Betfair only games. Why? Because the players are gamblers, that gamble on the site and play poker for a bit of fun. (The only exception is Kunku's game where there are some pretty decent players)

sexysandy, im pretty certain is a bot. the player never times out, rarely plays a flop,and actions are almost always fast.

whether they are good for the game is a diff question.
im quite happy if hes in my game, esp if i have position as it/s/he  rarely calls a raise unless stacked up.

^^ Couldn't you program a bot that can play post flop?

Just curious as a savvy programmer could use HEM or PT stats to program a bot to play perfect poker.

I seen a bot in action on Full Tilt and while it may know to call/ raise with correct odds it couldn't play a player properly and if I was up against it I would crush it.

I don't worry about bots or colluders, I count them as an occupational hazzard. It decreases my ROI but as long as I make a profit I'll stick with the game.

I just discovered this software today, has anyone used it?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/168/free-software/ongamecat-beta-part-iii-added-layout-manager-betpot-formula-hotkeys-checkwhenfree-1051486/

I think the main reason wy win percentage across all games is down is purely and simply down to the location of my opponents. On Old Betfair, you were mainly playing Greeks, Cypriots and Spaniards, who were on a mission to bust their ecconomy.

If you look at the STT leaderboard from last week there isnt a Greek, Cypriot, Spanish oreven UK player in the top 50.

37 of the top 50 are from former Eastern Bloc countries, mainly Russia, Ukraine, and Hungary. The rest are mostly Scandinavian.

schummrich I would say is almost certainly a bot. Always min raises with AA, the only hand it plays without shoving.Not sure why its programmed to do that ?

Spanish are not allowed on Betfair now chip.

I wish they would get rid of the Russians and Hungarians too them

It's not just the poker though is it? Maybe if you're betting long shots you might be better off on Betfair, but on last nights England markets there was nothing in it between them and the bookies. Is it bookies manipulating the market and/or those with better commission than the rest of us working on a tiny percentage profit on a larger turnover?

I had a bet on the half/time full time market with Betfair on the assumption that you got your money back if it went to penalties. It's not been paid back into my account. It's like poker, **** not on time, lags, collusion etc.

There's no value & no incentive to stay when a good service is not being offered - which has been Betfair for a while now.

They are very lucky they have a virtual monopoly on the exchanges.

The bookies are happy to bet to very small percentages these days on football. They make their money on the "twice a week acca on the coupon" punters, and the roulette machines.

igot my 50quidback .
u had to bet with betfair on their beta page[ie bet v betfair, not another customer], not have 50 on an exchange bet.

i did ita ht ita ft  with betfair at 6.2, when u went to the exchange it was 7.

Silly me. Should of just had my £25 with P***y P***r. Wouldn't of have to had worried about accessing their latest site or opting in. Fecking Beta rubbish.

Looks like the Eastern European colluding school are back playing the D2N's again.

Think I will play on here till this May bonus thing runs out and then go and play on Stars and 888 for a bit. Already been fleeced by these cnts once.