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I stumbled across some highly suspicious play on a 3 man micro table the other night, the pre flop action as so:
Danutz_Ghost raises to $0.20, bakla7878 calls $0.20, kokoulinos raises to $0.38, Danutz_Ghost calls $0.38, bakla7878 raises to $0.56, kokoulinos raises to $0.74, Danutz_Ghost calls $0.74, bakla7878 raises to $0.92, kokoulinos raises to $1.10, Danutz_Ghost folds, bakla7878 raises to $17.09 and is all-in, kokoulinos folds.
Very strange and set off a few alarm bells, so I looked up the players on PTR and further alarm bells set off when I saw that bakla7878 after approx 16,000 hands is a losing/barely break even player, 1200 hands later still at micro stakes and he magically makes a $1400-$1600 profit. Amazing turn around I think you will agree!
Now another amazing coincidence is that the same day bakla7878 starts turning a profit, his partner in crime kokoulinos starts playing on ongame. This fella has lost massive though dropping over 4k at micros and small stakes, but has lost $2.2k to bakla7878 ALONE at micros! He has also lost some suspicious large amounts to other players also considering his stakes.
So I reported this, and there accounts got frozen within 24 hours. Good work Ongame and Betfair so far. For me though this is where it goes wrong. Betfair say they will not refund any players who were out of pocket when these two played as NO collusion took place, only chipdumping!
I was both amazed and confused by this! First it has to be pointed out they were chipdumping in a rather crude way and losing a lot of money. Second I actually only played a very short session until I saw the above play and then left the table with a small profit. I am not writing this cos I think I am owed a few $ because I never lost.
So how can betfair say no collusion took place? These were 3 man tables and 2 of the 3 seats were taken by these 2 players. How can betfair say that players 7 or 8 betting pre and as soon as the 'mark' folds one of them folds to avoid showdown, is not colluding? Not every player to have played at their tables would have won money from them, some will have lost and these players MUST surely be refunded?
Views please? Just because these are micro stakes shouldn't mean they get ignored.
Danutz_Ghost raises to $0.20, bakla7878 calls $0.20, kokoulinos raises to $0.38, Danutz_Ghost calls $0.38, bakla7878 raises to $0.56, kokoulinos raises to $0.74, Danutz_Ghost calls $0.74, bakla7878 raises to $0.92, kokoulinos raises to $1.10, Danutz_Ghost folds, bakla7878 raises to $17.09 and is all-in, kokoulinos folds.
Very strange and set off a few alarm bells, so I looked up the players on PTR and further alarm bells set off when I saw that bakla7878 after approx 16,000 hands is a losing/barely break even player, 1200 hands later still at micro stakes and he magically makes a $1400-$1600 profit. Amazing turn around I think you will agree!
Now another amazing coincidence is that the same day bakla7878 starts turning a profit, his partner in crime kokoulinos starts playing on ongame. This fella has lost massive though dropping over 4k at micros and small stakes, but has lost $2.2k to bakla7878 ALONE at micros! He has also lost some suspicious large amounts to other players also considering his stakes.
So I reported this, and there accounts got frozen within 24 hours. Good work Ongame and Betfair so far. For me though this is where it goes wrong. Betfair say they will not refund any players who were out of pocket when these two played as NO collusion took place, only chipdumping!
I was both amazed and confused by this! First it has to be pointed out they were chipdumping in a rather crude way and losing a lot of money. Second I actually only played a very short session until I saw the above play and then left the table with a small profit. I am not writing this cos I think I am owed a few $ because I never lost.
So how can betfair say no collusion took place? These were 3 man tables and 2 of the 3 seats were taken by these 2 players. How can betfair say that players 7 or 8 betting pre and as soon as the 'mark' folds one of them folds to avoid showdown, is not colluding? Not every player to have played at their tables would have won money from them, some will have lost and these players MUST surely be refunded?
Views please? Just because these are micro stakes shouldn't mean they get ignored.
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Idiots...why didn't they chip dump on 2-man tables. And were they doing this on micro tables to the tune of 14k??
Collusion cannot be EV+, maybe on full ring tables, but on 3 max and 6 max, no way.
thats a fact.
thats a fact.
Depends what games you are playing I guess. Colluding in STT 6 man D2NS for instance has to be hugely EV+.
Yea, thats obvious.
But I am talking about real poker here, so no limit cash tables.
But I am talking about real poker here, so no limit cash tables.
Sorry, I must remember that when I'm mutitabling $20 and $30 dollar STTS the real poker is being played on the 0.05/0.10 cash tables. 
2 players collude to make sure one of them gets all the chips.
It can be for money laundering in a cash table or simple collusion in a STT. I play limit STT's on Stars mainly because I'm the reg in these but I've reported several colluders.
Basically what they do is raise, raise, raise each street until they force others out of the pot, they then chip dump to the shortest stack. It's pretty effective but blatantly obvious and I have no qualms about reporting anyone I feel is cheating me.
Collusion would be more effective in a 6 max than full ring cash imo. 2 or more players sharing cards would make sure the best hand always won and combine that with the strategy above would ensure a profit. I'm always aware of strange betting patterns and I review HEM on many players I'm wary of. Most times the players are just that bad they don't have a clue but I've reported several players and been correct on each occasion.
My greatest success was reporting 3 players in a 6 max STT (they only pay top 2). I was unsure of the 3rd player but I reported him anyway (felt he was just a bad player) but they were doing the method above. I made a point of playing them twice knowing I had nothing to lose but also to gather more evidence . WTF 3 were colluding in a 2 pay out game is beyond me but I play Stars for the very reason I know they do something about it and you will be refunded/ moved up the payouts.
It's good to see Betfair being so pro active but I've yet to be refunded for cheaters on this site.
First allow me to apologize for the delay in responding to your report. This particular case was quite involved and more time than usual was required for the review.
We have concluded that the play of 'Dansman88', 'Kolya659' and 'sneik777' violated the integrity of our games. They have been informed that they are no longer welcome to play on our site. In addition they were disqualified from events in which their unfair play affected the outcome. Players who advanced as a result have been compensated appropriately.
While you did not advance into the money as a result of the disqualifications, we have refunded your buy-ins totalling $14.00, as we feel you deserve another opportunity to play in a game unaffected by unfair play.
The integrity of the games at PokerSt@@rs is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide unfair play in our games. We work hard to police our games to assure our players of a fair, secure place to play. In the rare cases where violations of our Terms of Service have occurred we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.
Please accept our thanks for your timely report and continued play here on PokerSt@@rs. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help.
Regards,
Scott S
PokerSt@@rs Game Security Team
It can be for money laundering in a cash table or simple collusion in a STT. I play limit STT's on Stars mainly because I'm the reg in these but I've reported several colluders.
Basically what they do is raise, raise, raise each street until they force others out of the pot, they then chip dump to the shortest stack. It's pretty effective but blatantly obvious and I have no qualms about reporting anyone I feel is cheating me.
Collusion would be more effective in a 6 max than full ring cash imo. 2 or more players sharing cards would make sure the best hand always won and combine that with the strategy above would ensure a profit. I'm always aware of strange betting patterns and I review HEM on many players I'm wary of. Most times the players are just that bad they don't have a clue but I've reported several players and been correct on each occasion.
My greatest success was reporting 3 players in a 6 max STT (they only pay top 2). I was unsure of the 3rd player but I reported him anyway (felt he was just a bad player) but they were doing the method above. I made a point of playing them twice knowing I had nothing to lose but also to gather more evidence . WTF 3 were colluding in a 2 pay out game is beyond me but I play Stars for the very reason I know they do something about it and you will be refunded/ moved up the payouts.
It's good to see Betfair being so pro active but I've yet to be refunded for cheaters on this site.
First allow me to apologize for the delay in responding to your report. This particular case was quite involved and more time than usual was required for the review.
We have concluded that the play of 'Dansman88', 'Kolya659' and 'sneik777' violated the integrity of our games. They have been informed that they are no longer welcome to play on our site. In addition they were disqualified from events in which their unfair play affected the outcome. Players who advanced as a result have been compensated appropriately.
While you did not advance into the money as a result of the disqualifications, we have refunded your buy-ins totalling $14.00, as we feel you deserve another opportunity to play in a game unaffected by unfair play.
The integrity of the games at PokerSt@@rs is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide unfair play in our games. We work hard to police our games to assure our players of a fair, secure place to play. In the rare cases where violations of our Terms of Service have occurred we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.
Please accept our thanks for your timely report and continued play here on PokerSt@@rs. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help.
Regards,
Scott S
PokerSt@@rs Game Security Team
Its also now quite an effective way of money laundering since the advent of pre loaded credit cards.
Criminal A goes into cheque cashing place, hands over four figure sum in cash asks for it to be put on a crdit card. Lass behind counter gives him credit card with money loaded onto it. He loads up on a poker site where he deliberately loses in cash games to Criminal B.
Criminal B withdraws cash to bank account. Rozzers ever ask him where he gets all his money from, he says I'm a professional poker player, check my accounts.
Reason they dont do it heads up anymore, its too easy to trace if you losing it against one player as opposed to on a 6 max table.
Or so I heard.
Criminal A goes into cheque cashing place, hands over four figure sum in cash asks for it to be put on a crdit card. Lass behind counter gives him credit card with money loaded onto it. He loads up on a poker site where he deliberately loses in cash games to Criminal B.
Criminal B withdraws cash to bank account. Rozzers ever ask him where he gets all his money from, he says I'm a professional poker player, check my accounts.
Reason they dont do it heads up anymore, its too easy to trace if you losing it against one player as opposed to on a 6 max table.
Or so I heard.
Criminal A goes into cheque cashing place, hands over four figure sum in cash asks for it to be put on a crdit card. Lass behind counter gives him credit card with money loaded onto The weak link here is the "cheque cashing place", where cash money enters the banking system, there are many of layering and placement scenarios after that eg ebay.
Sorry Dave I dont really understand the second part of that. To be honest I dont really understand the first part either.
Unless you think these cash till payday loan places are going to be doing a load of background checks when you walk in and hand a few grand over the counter.
Unless you think these cash till payday loan places are going to be doing a load of background checks when you walk in and hand a few grand over the counter.
Just a bugbear of mine that various anti-online poker knobheads waffle on about money laundering when all the weaknesses are at the point where cash enters the system. If as you say "a few grand" can be handed over a counter without proper KYC, then that is obviously a huge loophole.
All forms of gambling have traditionally been an easy way to launder money, even moreso in the days before computers.
Gadge A approaches on course bookie B in the pub with 50k in drugs money on Friday. The following day Gadge A miraculously has 4 decent priced winners in a £10 yankee on his annual trip to the races with Bookie B . Wow what a stroke of luck, he now has cheque for 50k he can legitimately bank.
Bookie B tucks the 50k under his mattress and tells taxman he has had a terrible year and cant pay much tax.
Gadge A approaches on course bookie B in the pub with 50k in drugs money on Friday. The following day Gadge A miraculously has 4 decent priced winners in a £10 yankee on his annual trip to the races with Bookie B . Wow what a stroke of luck, he now has cheque for 50k he can legitimately bank.
Bookie B tucks the 50k under his mattress and tells taxman he has had a terrible year and cant pay much tax.
why would you chip dump in micro stakes take forever could do the same thing in a six max 10-20 if you sit in the blinds.Also how much is the winner sitting with in micro,you would be mad to sit in if he has $100-200.And how long would it take to dump $2000 in micro.It has to be the same player two seats turning a proffit out of the third person.
I dont think so, because only one of them is winning, and the other is losing very heavily, not suprisingly to his mates.
You ask why do it at micro stakes, well the fact the bloke has dumped off 4k, and 2.2k before anyone did anything tells its own story. Presumably it would have got picked up straight away at the higher stakes.
They sound Greek or Cypriot, and at the risk of racially stereotyping them, you would drive yourself crazy trying to fathom anything they do at the poker tables.
You ask why do it at micro stakes, well the fact the bloke has dumped off 4k, and 2.2k before anyone did anything tells its own story. Presumably it would have got picked up straight away at the higher stakes.
They sound Greek or Cypriot, and at the risk of racially stereotyping them, you would drive yourself crazy trying to fathom anything they do at the poker tables.
The other possibility is losing Greek Gadge A lives in Greece and deposits there in euros.
Winning Greek Gadge B who hes dumping to lives in London and can withdraw in sterling.
If Greece comes out of the Euro they reckon their money will devalue by around 50%, so might be a good way of converting euros to pounds without paying any beeswax.
Winning Greek Gadge B who hes dumping to lives in London and can withdraw in sterling.
If Greece comes out of the Euro they reckon their money will devalue by around 50%, so might be a good way of converting euros to pounds without paying any beeswax.
Interesting theory chip.
That could be happening on a much bigger scale on other sites and here
That could be happening on a much bigger scale on other sites and here
What difference is it who is up or down ,if it is the same account holder.If one is up 4k, the other down
2k he has nicked 2k.
But I'll run with your off shore banking
2k he has nicked 2k.
But I'll run with your off shore banking
May 28, 2012 -- 12:50PM, chipfire227 wrote:
All forms of gambling have traditionally been an easy way to launder money, even moreso in the days before computers.Gadge A approaches on course bookie B in the pub with 50k in drugs money on Friday. The following day Gadge A miraculously has 4 decent priced winners in a £10 yankee on his annual trip to the races with Bookie B . Wow what a stroke of luck, he now has cheque for 50k he can legitimately bank.Bookie B tucks the 50k under his mattress and tells taxman he has had a terrible year and cant pay much tax.
Don't think this is very likely on that scale. All it does is move the illegitimate cash from person A to person B, giving person B the problem that person A had. Also the bookie would have to have £50k in cash in the bank to cover the cheque - this would imply a successful business, so unlikely to risk it with this kind of caper. On top of this judges have generally disregarded any explanation for wealth on the theme "I wunnit on the horses, m'lud"
Dave,
You are very wrong sir.
I used to manage betting shops in Moss Side and all the drug dealers used to turn over their money in the betting shops. Whenever they had a big win (even though they were net losers) they would make a note of the date. When they eventually got caught they would inevitably have a large sum of cash in their possesion but because they could prove they 'won' it they would not end up with the cash confiscated.
Also do you think people with successful business's don't get greedy and want to pay less tax? A 50k laundering scam like them could save them 20k and I can assure you many people would see that as a tax dodge worth doing with little or no chance of getting caught!
You are very wrong sir.
I used to manage betting shops in Moss Side and all the drug dealers used to turn over their money in the betting shops. Whenever they had a big win (even though they were net losers) they would make a note of the date. When they eventually got caught they would inevitably have a large sum of cash in their possesion but because they could prove they 'won' it they would not end up with the cash confiscated.
Also do you think people with successful business's don't get greedy and want to pay less tax? A 50k laundering scam like them could save them 20k and I can assure you many people would see that as a tax dodge worth doing with little or no chance of getting caught!
Dunno about judges, they very rarely make those sort of decisions surely ? Thought it went plod-CPS-jury, with judges merely doing the sentencing ?
It (money laundering ) wasn't uncommon when I worked on course back in the day. I know cheques are a bit old fashioned but they used to be used quite a bit in the olden days, especially after a spate of armed robberies on bookmakers making their way home from the races.
Yes most on and off course bookies in the 70's and 80's had a virtual licence to print money, but you cannot seriously be suggesting that nobody running a profitable business evades tax.
It (money laundering ) wasn't uncommon when I worked on course back in the day. I know cheques are a bit old fashioned but they used to be used quite a bit in the olden days, especially after a spate of armed robberies on bookmakers making their way home from the races.
Yes most on and off course bookies in the 70's and 80's had a virtual licence to print money, but you cannot seriously be suggesting that nobody running a profitable business evades tax.
This all turned into a farce anyway.
Betfair/Ongame REFUSED to refund any losing players as in there words "No collusion took place". This is total BS in my book because how can they do what they were doing on a 3 player table without colluding?
So Betfair game me a £10 credit to compensate me for any bad gameplay I experienced. ( To shut me up basically).
Now though after having there accounts frozen they are both up and playing again.
It is because of the lack of action Betfair/Ongame take in clear cases of 'illegal' play that online poker will always come across as dodgy.
Why the Fk should anyone play legit? We may as all start up our little collusion rings as Betfair and Ongame obviously DO NOT GIVE A SH*T.
Joke Network
Betfair/Ongame REFUSED to refund any losing players as in there words "No collusion took place". This is total BS in my book because how can they do what they were doing on a 3 player table without colluding?
So Betfair game me a £10 credit to compensate me for any bad gameplay I experienced. ( To shut me up basically).
Now though after having there accounts frozen they are both up and playing again.
It is because of the lack of action Betfair/Ongame take in clear cases of 'illegal' play that online poker will always come across as dodgy.
Why the Fk should anyone play legit? We may as all start up our little collusion rings as Betfair and Ongame obviously DO NOT GIVE A SH*T.
Joke Network
Dear Rob,
Thank you for contacting Betfair.
Please be advised that following an investigation after you reported players kokoulinos and bakla7878 have now been blocked after evidence was found of them colluding. Our poker provider OnGame as well as Betfair thank you for bringing this incident to our attention.
Please do not hesitate in forwarding any similar instances to our attention.
Kind regards,
Josef Baldacchino
Betfair helpdesk
Thank you for contacting Betfair.
Please be advised that following an investigation after you reported players kokoulinos and bakla7878 have now been blocked after evidence was found of them colluding. Our poker provider OnGame as well as Betfair thank you for bringing this incident to our attention.
Please do not hesitate in forwarding any similar instances to our attention.
Kind regards,
Josef Baldacchino
Betfair helpdesk
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