BETFAIR QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION 12TH DEC 2011

Short term/Long term strategy

The meeting started with Betfair confirming they are still committed to Ongame in the long term, despite the issues we have all experienced lately, particularly in regard to outages and the lack of things like Leaderboard updates.
They still believe that the product will improve over the next 12 months, and that the network provides the type of gambling/fishier player with an environment they enjoy playing in, and that this in turn provides prey for the profitable players, which they may not get on a dedicated poker site not linked to a sportsbook such as Stars.

Essentially they are saying the site has historically attracted 2 types of player, the gamblers, and those who like to play against gamblers and they wish to continue in this vein. They have done considerable research which has shown that the customers who are most brand loyal to the site are those who play poker and the sports markets recreationally, and that it makes sense to try and cater for those customers, rather than a small number of winning players who tend to extract money from the system.
Personally, as a winning player for the last 4 years, I find this argument quite persuausive, and I guess that is why I have remained loyal to the site. I do however want the service to improve, and that is why both myself and Thrappers ( Helmuthian Folds ) have taken part in this process.

Community Tournament

This was again discussed in some detail, and we looked at things which had gone well and those that had not. While the tournament itself was considered a success by all present, we did point out the farcical situation which had seen winners of the radio show quiz not being paid relatively small sums for 3 weeks and ended with Betfair pro John Tabbatabai offering to pay people out of his own pocket via paypal. There were profuse apologies from the BF reps who accepted it looked incredibly amateurish and that the issue which had caused the problem had been resolved.

It was agreed that the PLO round of the league was not drawing sufficient entrants at present for us to justify carrying on, and that it would not feature in the next league which would be Hold’Em only.
The top people at Betfair seem very committed to the Community Game and want to see it grow to the point where we are attracting over 100 entrants, and more people are tuning into the radio show. They also wanted to see a more continental field, something I am not sure will happen whilst the show  is broadcast in Welsh/English, and requires participation on a forum which is English.

I did push for a Sunday Community game to run alongside the Wednesday game, again in a league format, with the possibility of Live packages and possibly merchandise (the chipsets have arrived from China-more of which later ! ) as prizes. This seemed to be broadly welcomed by Betfair, and hopefully at least one of us could be off to BF Live Prague in the Spring via the Sunday game. We suggested a start time of 7 or 7.30, with 6-8 minute blinds, so those who have to be up for work on a Monday still get to bed before midnight.

If we want to try and wangle a package to something abroad we will probably have to look at at least a ten dollar buy in for the game. Alternatively if you want a smaller buy in we may have to settle for a satellite seat. Let us know what you think.

Helmuthian adds : It is Chip who has been pushing for a Sunday tournament and it seemed to get a warm reception so I think we should get a Sunday community tournament in the new year maybe even hosted by Hans Vogl to maybe create some interest amongst our European friends. I know Hans quite well and his English is actually better than mine and he is a very thoughtful and friendly guy so let’s hope they do involve him in future community projects.

In terms of a prize, the sporting packages didn’t seem to popular and I think a package for Betfair Live events would be a great incentive for people to play regularly and a great prize as despite all the **** ups we get with the website the live events are run brilliantly and the players get well looked after.

I also made it very clear that the 3 week delay in payments for the quiz winners was just a joke and shoddy.  The excuses that the guy responsible had been on holiday for a week was just laughable.  Me, Chip, BFPPR and Kunku have put a lot of effort into making the community tournament a success which I feel it has been but everyone’s hard work is undermined by one person who can’t delegate then can’t catch up in two weeks and turns it all into a bit of a joke.  We have been assured that this will not happen again.

Cash Games/Essence

Essentially we went over ground previously covered in the first session back in the summer. It is clear Betfair are sticking with the Essence system, and as previously explained they feel this is the best way to protect their Poker Eco-system by retaining fishier players for longer.

Both Thrappers and myself agreed that despite canvassing for examples from players who claimed to be much worse off under the new system on the forum only one cash player  had come forward with actual figures. From this we could only assume that the majority of winning cash players have only been affected marginally by the new rake distribution, and accept that this is offset by the liquidity on the site and the fact there are still poor players at the lower levels for them to profit from. Either that or cash players are not using the forum.

Thrappers will go into further detail about discussions he had with the BF representatives regarding them paying out less rakeback than they were under the old system, and where BF are investing this money.

Helmuthian adds : I really took them to task on essence because I was not satisfied with their explanation that the essence system helped retain the ‘fishy players’.  My argument was that these players are not really interested in rakeback or reward points as most of them will not be playing enough to make a small increase in their rewards even noticeable to them.

I also pointed out that by attributing more rake to the losing players (lower volume) and more to the winning players (higher volume) that they were in fact paying out less rake as the higher volume player gets a higher percentage of rakeback/reward.  I drew an example on the whiteboard and in all fairness to them they held their hands up and gave what I found a more truthful and acceptable explanation.

Betfair comment : On this point we need to clarify that rake taken remains the same and the rake attributed remains the same – whether a player is a losing or winning player is neither here or there in this fact and I pointed out that not all massive grinders are winning players.

Poker, out of all Betfair products was effectively bringing the smallest rewards and within the Betfair company network they were struggling to justify promotional spend on poker.  The essence system means they give slightly more money to the players who bring the money into the eco-system and take more from the winning players who effectively remove money from the system.  My issue was where this extra money went and the most senior person we met assured me that any money they gained from this was used for promotional spend targeting the recreational players who they make more out of and we want to be playing against.  Apparently they now even have a system where if their affiliates bring them more of these sort of players they get a better reward. 
Now i know that previously affiliate sites would concentrate on the high rakers (good players) as obviously they will get more rewards financially than they would off the more recreational player.
Anything that encourages more recreational players to the site has to be good for any player who wants to make an income from poker.  We all seem to accept that the standard of play on Betfair/Ongame is poor and they want to try and keep it that way, for any serious player that does seem to be the way forward.

Betfair adds in relation to affiliates : Is this correct ? (We are speaking with Betfair’s Affiliates team to clarify this)

Leaderboards

I was fully expecting a very heated exchange, but this was somewhat defused by the Promotions guy immediately accepting that the recent updates on the Skill and Go Leaderboard, or rather the lack of them, was unacceptable, and that there was no point arguing otherwise.

He stated that the recent Advent Calendar sit and go 3 day leaderboard promotion had been an opportunity for them to test for the first time an almost live leaderboard and that after teething problems on the first day this had gone well. I accepted this was the case because I had spoken with gnasher, the only Betfair player on that leaderboard, and he had confirmed that towards the end of the promotion updates were happening almost in real time.

At present the leaderboard is done manually using data provided by Ongame, which as well as being time consuming is totally reliant on Betfair receiving regular data from Ongame. They are hoping to have this process semi-automated in the coming weeks, with a view to eventually running something approximating a live leaderboard.

They pointed out that the Natural Born Grinders Leaderboard had been functioning much more reliably, and we had no evidence from the forum members to suggest otherwise.

I asked might it make more sense to alter the day that the Skill and Go leaderboard finishes, as running it Friday morning through to Thursday night, seemed to mean the final board wasn’t being published until a Monday, over  72 hours after completion. This was something they might consider.

We then had a  discussion about the Skill and Go board generally. I felt the recent decision extending payments through to the top 200, rather than paying the top 40 or 50, and  as a consequence reducing payments to those at the top of the board, had probably made the promotion less appealing to those who might abuse it by account sharing or colluding. Thrappers then asked why the promotion had the word skill in the title as the board was still to all intent and purpose a rake race, where a player playing 2 STT’s with 2 non cashes, could generate more points than a player who played one game and cashed. They accepted that the board was still something they were experimenting with, but that they definitely wanted a more even distribution of the prize money, with anyone playing a reasonable number of games standing a chance of a decent placing on the board without having to play full-time, and that they may have to tweak the board again to increase the skill element .

They were very aware of the fact very few UK based players were featuring on the board, I pointed out that the volume required to finish in the top five places would not be sufficiently rewarding for someone to give up their day job to chase it in this country, where as in Eastern Europe it might. Again they said this was something they would look at as they really wanted everyone to have a fair chance to win something from the board.

Helmutian adds : As chip has said they accepted that their performance on leader boards had been unacceptable and that they were doing all they could to correct this.  They have altered the way the data is packaged so that it is easier to store and process.
Their first aim is to get a regular and reliable daily update of STT leader boards and then once that is stable to try and move forward onto live leader boards like most other sites have.  I think it is sensible to try and walk before they can run especially as recently they have actually been glued to the floor

Prize Mountain

I wasn’t shocked to hear this had been a massively popular promotion from the Betfair reps, I was shocked to hear at least one of them trying to once again suggest that poker points WERE NOT taken into consideration when targets were set for this. Fortunately we had enough anecdotal evidence from the forum to suggest otherwise. While it is too late to do anything about this years promotion, we did get an assurance from the most senior person at the meeting that he would personally seek clarification as to what was and wasn’t taken into consideration when targets were set. While he didn’t go so far as admit poker players had been penalised for playing a lot of poker, he wasn’t daft enough to refute the evidence out of hand. Especially when we pointed out that if poker usage wasn’t used in setting targets, then asking people to wager 23 times more than they would do in a normal month was certainly encouraging people to gamble irresponsibly.

If nothing else we hope to get a definitive answer once and for all. As I said it wont help any of you this year, but it may do next time around, as the indication we got was that the promo would probably be repeated next Christmas.

Helmuthian adds :I think overall for Betfair this has probably been a great success but for the poker site it has been a PR disaster as we have all been set unattainable targets and as much as certain people saying poker points were not included in calculating the targets I am 100% sure they were.  As Chip says we cannot do anything about the promo that has just finished but hopefully it is not a mistake they will make again.  I would also like to see them keep up their openness policy and actually admit this was a **** up and assure is it won’t happen againand then it can be put behind us and move on.


Betfair adds : I cannot comment on this one other than to say that we were not involved in this as a Poker promotions team, and in turn once we found out we ran a retention bonus offer.

Join The Betfair Pro Team Promotion

As many of you are aware this promotion is running over Christmas so we took the opportunity to ask a few questions about it. Personally I thought the title of the promo was a bit misleading as to me it suggests they would be treating the winner to a few entries to big live events, or at least tickets to some big online tourneys, when the reality is that it will entitle you to a payment of five bucks every day for a year into your account.
Obviously five bucks a day for 365 days isn’t to be sniffed at, but it doesn’t really make you a part of the Betfair Pro Team as alluded to in the title. The guy from the Promotions Team as ever was appreciative of the feedback, and would welcome further feedback from the forum Their thinking as a team was divided over the promo, with some wanting to give a bigger lump sum rather than the small instalments. Again if anyone has any thoughts as to whether this is a good, bad, or indifferent promo, let us know and we will feed back.

Helmuthian adds : Just a poor promo for me, what sort of incentive they think $5 a week is god only knows.  I suggested if they wanted to do something like this in the future maybe prizes ranging from weekly championchip tickets down to maybe $20 tourney tickets for a year would be a better promo.  They seemed to believe that actually giving cash would be better as then people can use it as they like but that it would more likely be lumps of cash rather than a weak dribble.

Betfair adds : As I explained the theory behind this is attracting the ‘fish’ that we alluded to earlier that may not be as sensitive as the ‘regular more seasoned forumite’. We have specific targets around player days and how it increases long term retention rates the more you get someone coming back to the site hence the payout structure each day. Admittedly we will look into the amount being pumped into the promo

Apparently they now even have a system where if their affiliates bring them more of these sort of players they get a better reward.
Now i know that previously affiliate sites would concentrate on the high rakers (good players) as obviously they will get more rewards financially than they would off the more recreational player.

This is actually not true and was me misunderstanding what they told me and should have been removed before being published so apologies if anyone feels mis-led.

Players Club, changes to the points structure

A real hot topic as far as the STT and MTT players were concerned with them cutting the rakeback calculation from 5 to 3.6, to bring it in line with cash. We got absolutely no joy here. The rationale behind the move was that the rake races had proven that the STT grinders in particular had a big advantage over the cash players and the Promo Team wanted to level the playing field. Not only that there are many more reasons why, including abuse of the sign up bonus mechanics across the network

We pointed out that STT players already paid the highest rake in the Western World at 10% for all games , even heads up and D2N, as opposed to an industry standard of 5% and even lower in some places.
Betfair adds : This isn’t true – I will provide a detailed summary of the rake comparison . Only in HU are Ongame out of line
Even players on the old 30% rakeback deal like myself could still find cheaper games elsewhere. I also specifically asked that if they were reducing our points generating by 28% would we be getting the equivalent reduction in the number of points required to get to certain levels e.g Master which is 14,000 points, Grand Master which is 60,000. Again they said this would not be happening even though I pointed out it would mean someone currently on Master level would have to play 28% MORE poker next year just to stay at the same level.They do generally just seem to be doing their level best to cut the amount of rakeback being paid.
Betfair add : Its nothing to do with that, and actually rake back players are not affected by this points change as it’s based on the rake attributed after essence which will be the same – for example rake from Pot is $3 and you get attributed $1 before you would get 5 points now you get 3.6 for the purposes of rake back it doesn’t change you still get based on $1.

While they state the money saved is being reinvested into the eco-system in other ways, I personally believe it is just as likely, indeed probably more likely, to be making its way into the pockets of Betfair Shareholders.

Betfair add : Only Loyalty players are affected.

I made the point as aggressively as I could that if they keep their product as the most expensive in a competitive market place while cutting the amount of profit they give back to the players via rakeback and promotions they will ultimately drive players away, irrespective of how fishy their site is. Times are hard and if players can get a game 2% cheaper elsewhere then they will go elsewhere, especially if they can go to a site that isn’t crashing as often as Ongame does.
One thing I did clarify after a request from a forumite was that anyone who achieves Master status will get an invite to the next Live Masters freeroll, even if they have lost the Masters status by the time the next tourney runs.
I also asked why this years 3 games were all in the south. There was some ignorance by those present who seemed to think Nottingham was in the North ( that’s Londoners for you ! ) and they said they might try and hold one in Birmingham next time ! I was going to get up at this juncture and draw a map of the UK on the white board and point out the Midlands, but it seemed like I was fighting a losing battle. Apparently the events team looks at the geographical make up of the Masters players and books venues on that basis. Yeah right !

Finally they wanted some feedback on the new cashback offer sent to us all by email. I haven’t got one despite having emailed promotions enabled in the my account section. Thrappers has had his and said it was pretty poor. I know gnasher said something similar. Has anyone else had the email ? Is it any good ?

Overall the promotion session went much, much, better than last time, and I think we may be finally getting somewhere in terms of the players helping to shape future promotions, which is something I think is worth fighting for. There certainly seemed a willingness from the Promotions Team not just to actually ask for feedback, but a willingness to act upon it.
Helmuthian adds :  Agree with Chip that the promotions guy seemed far more open to what we had to say than last time and I would go as far as to say he actually appreciated our input.
In terms of the player points re-structure for STT/MTT’s  we were told it brought what they pay in rakeback on these in line with what cash players receive and also in line with the rest of the industry although I would like to see figures to back this up.  I still think of greater concern is the level of rake they initially charge on STT’s on the site which are certainly NOT in line with the rest of the industry and are just too high.  Both me and Chip made this point but we were not made aware of any intention to review tournament fees.

Betfair adds : This is misunderstood please supply the comparison table – conversations are occurring with Ongame re HU fees but that will not be an immediate change.

N.B. We are awaiting a fees comparison table from Betfair which they allege will prove their fees are comparable with the rest of the industry. Personally, I can only make comparioson with STT fees on Stars and 888, both of which are lower, especially in Turbo games and D2N.

Software Updates

I think it is generally accepted that the recent updates ( with the possible exception of the migraine inducing yellow/orange cards ) have been well received. Things in the pipeline for the next couple of months include:

·         Auto buy in/ Auto rebuy for cash games

·         Mac Java Poker client

·         The likelihood of side games being incorporated into your table in the top right hand corner where you tourney information normally sits. This would essentially give you the opportunity to play things like Blackjack or Roulette within your table via a drop down box. They are also looking at the possibility of  running live leaderbaord information in this field in future.

I certainly wasn’t enamoured with the idea of having blackjack hands popping up on my table, but as I’m self- excluded from casino and arcade it wouldn’t affect me. I would rather the donks were losing their money at the poker tables than the Blackjack ones, but then again if they are playing both games at once they should be even easier to pick off.
Both Thrappers and myself suggested that most poker players we knew would probably rather see the latest odds for live sporting events in that field if we had to have it populated with anything other than a live leaderboard field.
Other proposals for the next six months include :

Tournament improvements

·         Late registration for MTT’s

·         Synchronised breaks

·         Time limited tournaments (will stop at a pre publicised time )

·         Pit stop tournaments ( will pay out at different stages )

·         Sit and go multi reg (automatically register for 4 tables and will start tables )


Game access

·         Ajax search feature

·         Observer mode/chat

·         In client messaging i.e. one to one messaging within the client

Betfair were very keen to get feedback from the forum of which of the above should be done as a priority, and we would value your input here. Both Thrappers and myself thought the biggest priority would be late registration but we agreed it best to throw this open to the forum.

Thrappers also raised the issue of add on pop ups and he will give more information about this.

Helmuthian adds : They asked us from the ‘to implement’ list which we thought was most important and it’s  a no brainer that late registration is an absolute must and really needs to be given the highest priority as it is definitely affecting their MTT business and is soooo frustrating if you are 2 minutes to late for the tourney you want and yet I can join a tourney on virtually any other site that started half an hour ago.
Also the synchronised breaks is important as anyone who wants to play several tournament is going to go somewhere they can actually have a toilet/food/drink break.  I was actually talking to two player this week who said they play hardly any MTT’s on ongame for precisely this reason.

The new tournaments would be nice but personally I think getting late registration has to be the highest priority.  Obviously we want to hear what others feel.
I asked them to look at either an auto add-on tick box or at least for the window to push forward the game window when the add-on period started just like it does when it is your turn to act.  They said they would look into this.

Helpdesk

This was actually quite a short session. We were provided with a really helpful series of graphs and pie charts from those running the Helpdesk giving in depth analysis of their performance. We are awaiting permission from Betfair to publish some of this data on the forum so everyone can see how they are doing. They are also going to keep both Thrappers and myself updated month by month on performance.

They have also introduced individual monitorings on the Helpdesk employees ( I believe the figures quoted were 12 calls and 12 email enquiries per advisor, per month, fully reviewed ) to identify training needs. They have also began rolling out poker specific training based on their initial findings.

They are indebted to everyone who has passed issues onto them via the forum reps for review and would like this to continue. Thrappers has dealt with this issue more than I have so he will probably have more to contribute here. All I will say is that I contacted Helpdesk with  Prize Mountain query last week, and it was handled within the timeframe promised, even though I didn’t agree with the answer, it was professionally delivered.
I will continue sending “test” emails on a monthly basis.

Helmuthian adds :Last time I was especially harsh on the helpdesk guy and was bordering on rude to him when he tried to say that he thought the helpdesk was performing well.  Since our last meeting I have been assured by other Betfair people that the helpdesk has been under severe scrutiny.  This time the helpdesk guy was more open and was happy to show us figures and charts that showed their progress.
All the product knowledge complaints I received have been listened to and although some were found to be exaggerated they have accepted that in the past their help desks staff have not had enough product knowledge and this has been improved and will continue to be improved and worked on.

My biggest issue with them at the last meeting was the failure to get back to people when the answer could not be given at the time of contact and their were many examples of people not being emailed or rung back when they had been told they would.  Most of these complaints have dried up and systems have been put in place so that responsibility for getting these answers back are not just with the helpdesk but with the relevant departments that the issues are forwarded to.
Things are definitely improving in this area and after being harsh on him last time I made an effort to praise the helpdesk chief as I think they took on board what we said last time and the improvement and the will to improve was obviously there.  I just hope I didn’t come across as condescending as my praise was genuinely meant.

Merchandise

It was announced during the meeting by the biggest player at the table that the chipsets have finally arrived from China. This drew gasps and gaping stares, even from the other Betfair staff present. Not only do they have chipsets they are rumoured to have other things, possibly even hoodies, and baseball caps in adult sizes !

Alas nobody seems to know exactly where in the UK the stash is, but we were informed it was indeed in the UK. Watch this space.

Helmuthian adds : Chip did propose they should have tourneys with merchandise added as value as these are popular on other sites and they did say they would look into it.

Conclusion

On a personal level, I was obviously disappointed by a lot of what I heard, but then as a primarily recreational STT player there wasn’t much good news to come out of this for me. I would like to think I put across as forcibly as I could, while maintaining a level of professionalism, the anger felt by STT players generally on the site, and that I feel the moves made will lead to more UK STT players leaving, unless some concessions are made, especially in the current economic climate.
At the same time, it is very hard to deny that the site has liquidity you don’t get on some of its rival sites, and the games are still relatively soft, despite the influx of Eastern European players.

The MTT improvements are long overdue, particularly with things like late registration, and it will be interesting to see how quickly they will be implemented. I did stress that on a personal level how messy I found the MTT lobby generally, and that it was crazy that there wasn’t a simple filter you could use to remove all the satelittes and qualifiers from view, and just see the touries running to completion that day/night.

I don’t think there was anything much to come out of the session for cash players, and from the almost complete silence from the cash fraternity on the forum I assume they are generally happy with things.

Going down there does give you a general overview of how the company operates. They are a business, responsible to their shareholders to make money, at the end of the day, and not a charity or not for profit organisation. Like the high street bookies they are there to make money, and I’m pretty sure, like Ladbrokes and Co, they would have us all playing roulette and slots all day if they had their own way, as that’s where the easy profits and guaranteed margins are. Obviously in an ideal world Betfairs sole reason for being in business would be to allow me to make as much money as possible, but we don’t live in an ideal world.

Realistically, poker is not a massive earner for Betfair, but it is something they feel they have to provide, and there are genuinely people within the company who want to actually make the poker product function better than it does now. Like it or not, these are the people who are in board meetings fighting for a bigger slice of the cake for the poker side of things, and I still feel it is probably wiser to try and work with these people rather than just sitting on the sidelines slating them.
The impression I get, and it’s just my impression, is that the site wants to cater primarily for recreational users, who like a bet, like the odd flutter in the arcade and casino, and play a bit of poker. They are not, first and foremost a poker site, and poker will always play second fiddle to the exchange.

If you want a site that runs a massive range of games, and attracts a lot of pure poker players, that runs the best promotions and super-duper leaderboards, that functions as they should, and that offers games at less than 5% rake, that don’t crash twice a week, then log onto Stars and take your chances.

If you want a hit and miss site with lots of reckless gambling poker players, that charges high rates in STT’s, and operates a baffling rakeback system that only 5 people in the Western World understand yet cannot fully explain for cash games, then Betfair might be the place for all the nits, rocks, and ABC players out there, happy to pay a little bit extra for their regular diet of fish.

At present I play about 60% of my poker online with Ongame/Betfair, and while nothing that came out of this session would encourage me to increase that proportion, I doubt I will be decreasing it either.

Ultimately as players we cannot expect to tell Betfair how to run its business, what network to use, what fees to charge, what rakeback system to operate. What we can do is get more actively involved in discussions around software updates and how promotions are run. In both of these areas Betfair seem particularly keen to get feedback from us and have the updates and promotions driven by the players themselves. I certainly think in future we should place more focus on the areas we can have an influence, and spend less time discussing things like outages, which we have no control over.

They are making improvements in a lot of areas, but in others they are still failing, and failing badly to the extent that they often seem to be giving a masterclass in underachievement;could do better as my school reports used to say.

Helmuthian adds : Agree with most of what Chip says although I was a bit more encouraged than he was.

The biggest change was the change in attitude from most of the department heads we met with who last time seemed to view us as the enemy and this time seemed far more open to our suggestions and input and genuinely seemed to want to work with us which I find is most encouraging.

When we were having the Q & A sessions on the forum it was obvious that some departments weren’t taking them seriously and I think actually having to meet us face to face has changed that and that although things so far have only got slightly better, they are still improving and hopefully the pace will pick up.

All the product improvements we were promised last time were delivered and delivered on time which is a definite positive.

http://community.betfair.com/poker/go/thread/view/94146/28739415/calling-betfairprmanager


So what happen with that question then ?  (or did i miss it)

Merchandise

It was announced during the meeting by the biggest player at the table that the chipsets have finally arrived from China. This drew gasps and gaping stares, even from the other Betfair staff present. Not only do they have chipsets they are rumoured to have other things, possibly even hoodies, and baseball caps in adult sizes !

Alas nobody seems to know exactly where in the UK the stash is, but we were informed it was indeed in the UK. Watch this space.

LOL i like that

That question was answered in the short term/long term strategy session thus :

The meeting started with Betfair confirming they are still committed to Ongame in the long term, despite the issues we have all experienced lately, particularly in regard to outages and the lack of things like Leaderboard updates.


You can have all the player surveys and polls you like, they aren't leaving, and 20 people on the forum saying Ongame stinks, isn't going to change anything. They know there is a lot of hostility on here towards Ongame, and they don't need a poll to tell them that.

As I said above, we are pretty much stuck with 2 choices :

1) Putting up with it, but trying to influence the things it is in our power to influence.
2) Playing elsewhere.

Your name was mentioned in the meeting mate when chipsets were discussed ! I was reliably  informed your case would be the first to be looked at.

Tyvm Chip, well played sir

My biggest issue by far and away is that the promotions are all geared to UK players. Betfair has customers around the world but start times of tournaments, live game promotions etc. are useless if you live outside the UK.

I have to say that the regular promotions such as Skill and Go, and Natural Born Grinders, are never won by UK based players, and indeed UK based players very rarely finish anywhere near the top.

Likewise the Advent calendar promos, which if they were geared towards any one group in particular, were geared towards full time Eastern European players.

Betfair may be a global outfit, but I would imagine at least 99% of its poker players are based in Europe. Perhaps BF PR could get the actual figure and a comment.

As far as Ongame is concerned I dont think the same applies, clearly they do cater for a global market as is evidenced by the start times of big daily guaranteed tournies like the Canadian, Brazilian, and Midnight Oil, which all start after most UK players have gone to bed for the night.

My vote for the first software update would be auto reload for cash tables. Betfair and ongame and keen for people to play more tables, I personally would be able to play more games as I wouldn't have to spend so much time pressing add chips etc