Is it a lot more difficult to profit out of poker now than 3 or 4 years ago?

Yes, but because of a few reasons:

- standard of play has increased (players are more "mature" now)
- fewer novice players coming into the game
- apps helping a player's play (HEM etc.) and taking away the innate need for players to be skilful and to develop their game through hard graft
- sites offering hand histories for large player databases, and sites offering find a player features make it easier for sharks to feed off fish (meaning more sharks / fewer fish)


Sportsbooks will be the best places to play in future (arguably, they are now) because of the higher number of novice players being introduced to the game through them decreasing the overall skill level, and Essence-style pricing schemes will be the norm as they favour novice players over seasoned / winning pro's. Stars and like-minded sites will continue to mop up players from the sportsbooks but not actually introduce new players to the game themselves (software & service aside) as they continue to focus on existing poker players. They will continue to be difficult places to play. Oh, and people will still moan about RNG's!

Still very feasible to win at poker, just needs more effort than it did previously during the game's hey day. Tournament poker easier than cash game poker because of the game type not being so led by HEM and other tools. Try it out and see what you think!

Good luck.

Agree totally with the above comments. Its much harder, very few mtt overlays, and you have to really search out soft stt games, rather than just sitting down and making a profit wherever you played, as was once the case.

yes

I also totally agree with siJohn´s comment. I have exactly the same problem.

So how do you think poker sites can make it easier for new players to come into the game and stick at it?

The easiest way would be to ban tracking software like HEM and PT but I think that is easier said than done.

Yep - agree.

Or make all tables anonymous tables. Or enable aliases to be changed frequently.

But isn't that part of poker, analysing player styles and taking notes? How can u do that if everyone is anonymous or constantly changing alias's? Not that I do much note taking, but I know a lot of successful players who rely heavily on it - Frank 2770 for example (what happened to him btw?)

I has my best year ever last year despite blowing a stack in November and December, but is that because I cut back on cash and sngs I ask myself? I'm not sure the mtts are noticeably different in player ability and I think sats still hold good value. Trouble is, just playing mtts, is coping with the horrendous runs you go through - months of it. That's why I still play $10 & $20 30 man sng turbo's at times, just to get a feeling that I'm still in the game, even if I'm doing my bolloxs.

Agree 100% with OP.

After 6 years of profitable internet poker, I've hardly played in 2011. Play in general is so much better. It just doesn't seem 'worth it' to spend my time trying to beat both the rake and the other players.

Obviously the secret is to raise your own game.

If you can't make a profit then your game has stood still,while other players have improved.

Hardly a 'secret'.

In SNGs you need to be 10% better than the pack just to break even. This was easy a few years ago - but not so easy now. Yes, you can tweak certain things in your game but it's just impossible to improve at the same rate as the 'pack'. Margins therefore have to fall.

So according to your theory johnny the guesser,nobody would be successful at poker nowadays.

Weird thinking.

have to agree with u there sijohn, i started out in 2006 and was making a very decent profit, winning numerous tourneys and killing the HU cash tables. But like u said, lately its a struggle. I think the problem is the fact that for one, so many players now have sort of 'cracked' the game so to speak and players are playing the same way and cancelling each other out. Also because the majority of sites have 'loyalty' programs as opposed to rakeback deals, players are tending to play tighter than ducks asses. Then you have to look at the sites themselves, Stars has too many players in their tourneys and u basically need a lot of luck to win one. Also as someone stated, there are no overlays any more mainly because of most sites having late registration. I personally dont like late registration and Stars take it to the extreme with 2 hours late reg on quite a few tourneys. I would agree with 'shudacuda' in where he says to 'raise ur own game' if there was no HEM or PT. These programs should be banned imo.

jc30
Also because the majority of sites have 'loyalty' programs as opposed to rakeback deals, players are tending to play tighter than ducks asses.

Its the complete opposite, players are far more aggro these days not tighter.

In the good old days the bad players played way too many hands. You saw a lot of cheap flops against them, and could get paid off on every street when you hit, and get away from it when they hit.Essentially you could get it in with the nuts and get paid without risking your entire stack in the process.

Now they just whack it in pre with their 2 suited broadway cards and raggedy aces, which is probably more ev+ for them, and obviously increases the number of bad beats.You have to risk your entire stack against them, and quite often you wont even be that big a favourite.

I'm currently no.1 player on a certain sharkscope leaderboard (placed every year - & have been doing for a good 3 years or so)but am finding it a real mental struggle to continue playing them at such a rate lately .

I Know i'm a lot better than 'the pack' but even 'the pack' slowly start to grind you down collectively .. it's like fighting a bunch of teenagers (you know you'll still win -- but is it really worth the effort) !

There's less & less fish playing nowadays (especialy since the U.S Crackdown) and even the fish that continue to play day after day , week after week gradually improve  .. to a point where you kinda leave them alone

I've tried other angles this year .. cash games (never been my game really - and i see the same there - same hardcore bunch sitting at every table , every day , all day long , you can't compete with any edge or sanity intact at the end of the week .

The Russians have taken over !

Tourneys .. as a top sng player & some decent cashes i should really be able to compete in tourneys at a high level .. but bad beat after bad beat after bad beat really gets to me lately .. dickheads just get lucky on me at the crucial moment every time .. played 2 wcoop events (was gonna play more) and the same there too

I really can't see how they can be a profitable form of income for anybody .. but haven't given up on them yet .. there's still a Lot of fish in them & even the hardcore players are fish in their own right if you have the game to play them .. though the same top players still manage to make the money time & time again (god that Liv Boree is fkn Annoying!!)

Poker has just become a mental game of manipulation imo .. anybody playing straightforward poker may win sometime but will get manipulated more often than they need to be to profit heavily

That Liv Boree is fkn lovely.

It is harder but you mugs whine too much,

So many fish low stakes I can't stop laughing...badbeats FTW

can't see the attraction to Liv .. she has an Enormous Head [smiley:crazy]

Definitely my experience is similar to OP. I used to make good money playing poker, but gradually my earning rate per hour has dropped. So much so that I gave up playing completely for 4 months and just recently have been back playing some STT's in the evening while watching TV (ie not devoting serious time to the game). If you are making less than 50p an hour playing $3 - 5 5 handed games then its hardly worth the bother.

Frankly I am not completely convinced that we get a fair game at all times. But maybe it is just virtually impossible these days to create a winning margin through skill that exceeds the rake by a reasonable amount.

In my local town we used to have the nuts poker league weekly tournaments in about 10 pubs. Now we are down to only 2. I think a lot of people who took up poker thinking it was a skillful and exciting game have come to realise what an inferior game of skill it actually is.

Mc Moonbeam

can't see the attraction to Liv .. she has an Enormous Head


What,you better adjust your telly then.

Also I think with a lot of the top sites been proven to be cheating and looking at peoples cards and the
shutting down of the us sites and the non return of billions of us dollars to players
and as above all the software to help players and the hand history to analyse it's not worth playing.
Up to 2008 I won a good bit.Given up now.Only crumbs left.

People must also relialize software exists for multiple bots to be playing and sharing info at the low stakes.These
bots are progeammed to take 'rests' to mimic human players.
The problem is you do not know if you are playing against a bot or a hand sharing multi bot.

I first started playing internet poker seriously in 2004. I paid 10 dollars into pacific poker, and I was lucky enough that I won my first multi-player tournament and immediately got my stack up to 300 dollars.

I then moved on to cash tables, and started playing 5-10 dollars fixed limit. I played a very aggressive strategy, raising or folding. Most of the players seemed to be americans, and most of them were pretty passive players.

a lot of the tables would end up being bloodbaths, and i'd end up scooping the lot. I basically won about 10,000 dollars in three months. the hands were so easy- you'd get ace king and hit a king on the flop, and they'd be two players timidly calling you down with a low pair, or jack high or whatever **** they wanted to play with.

but then I got bored, met a girl I fell in love with, and poker didn't seem so interesting anymore. playing internet poker for 8 hours a day and caring about 100 dollar pots didn't seem at all interesting when I had these overwhelming feelings of love.

One night, when pissed, I moved up to the 10-20 tables and lost 2000 dollars in that night. the players were far more aggressive, and would check raise you on fourth straight with second pair.

so i went off internet poker for a while. besides, I think it is a bit inhuman, watching some computer graphics (which is clearly just created to keep you addicted) all day and trying to not get bored. but then lured by the whole buzz of the thing, I got sucked back in.

what did I notice? I noticed that the players just weren't that bad anymore. for a start they had banned all the yanks. now I felt like the mug on the table. I was getting ripped. the players that would timidly call me down with second pair were now check-raising me on the river when they'd made their hand on the flop.

essentially I now see internet poker as a waste of time. I understand there are still people who make a lot of money out of it, but they are few and far between.

No sh*t sites like ongame have always existed.

Actually I was reading that the one device that killed winning percentages more than anything was the automatic shufflers at land based casinos. When dealers were shuffling the cards the win % by the players was more than 1.8% higher. There is no real theory as to why but it is a fact.

Seems the only players that moan are tournament players! Cash is were the profit it is, come and join us!

OP is absolutely spot on, i started about ten yrs ago on stars and pacific and was making a fortune, unfortunately my leak was the bookies and they probably got around 50% of my winnings but it didnt really matter cos i could go back to the tables and win more seemingly at will.
eventually although still profitable was getting bored of poker, poker and more poker.
then 3 yrs ago started a family and never had time to really play for a couple of years.
got back into it maybe 8 months ago with some decent tourney cashes but the cash games i used to be dominating (5/10 fixed or 1/2 NL) i was getting crushed.
so i started leaving the hold em tables for the omaha games and i think it will be the way to go, making a slow and steady profit.
NL has changed so so much in the years i was gone its scary.

The key for me is finding an edge. I'm a reasonable micro stakes STT player but playing STT's on here and Stars you run into tables half filled with multi tabling grinders who are easy to read but difficult to beat. I've always said that to win a 9 seat STT you need 1 or 2 decent players, 4 or 5 average players and the rest fish. You don't really want any of the other 2 extremes - a table full of decent nor a table full of fish (your AA isn't that strong v 4 callers) Table selection is key as is finding value added tournaments like the community game on here. Give yourself an edge and you can make money. I've found a decent game on Stars where I have a 16% ROI in 2k games, this also sometimes gets me onto the leaderboards which gets me added cash. I also swim with the fish which means I occasionally get eaten by the sharks.

I agree with the Omaha change even though I don't play it. Finding a game where you're more knowledgeable than your opponent makes a lot of sense. I like 5 card draw and Stud for the same reason. I may not be the best at these but I take my knowledge from NL with me.

The above information is from someone who can't beat the STT's and has just done his bankroll on here [:o]

I used to make a very tidy amount from Poker.

But whilst players are better and more aggressive the plain fact is my all in win % is tiny - my ev is truly awful. Tonight I had 16 pre flop all ins and won 3 - the only 3 hands i was behind!!

Finally finished 11th in an MTT - usual mug goes all in utg for monster over-raise 18 x BB - from BB I call with JJ v Q9os - flop J. Knew turn and river would be runner runner straight - seen it so often and bingo - he wins mammoth pot and wins 9k - I win $127!! In other Mtt's late pos raiser shoves all in with 2 or 3 outs - again I lost the lot. It's not just tonight I am having a moan, it's pretty much constant.

I just know these donks are gonna win when i very rarely shove all in behind.

Online poker is juiced to the max - looking at my HH over time clear pattern of underdogs winning all ins hell of a lot more and way above expected %. Post flop trips always busted be an all in mug with 5 high flush draw or gut shot str8 draw.

The reason why online poker is so juiced is simple - rake. And this favours the reckless.

It's all well and good saying 'change your game.' Win % on all ins have fck all to do with 'your game.' It's about the constant set ups and bad beats.

Ask yourself why the successful highstakes players only play HU...long-term its easier to find an edge against tables of one player, than a table full of changing players. The only way you'll make a long-term profit playing NLH at 6max+ is blind stealing.....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The reason why online poker is so juiced is simple - rake. And this favours the reckless.


After winning over 100k i'm starting to believe that sites like st^rs stitch their solid regs up rotten . (supernovas+)

and it seems to have gotten a lot worse since black friday