Motor Sports
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
A well deserved victory.Max finally got some luck.
One of the greatest driver ever.
One of the greatest driver ever.
Show More
Utter joke of a sport after that. I suspect it will turn all those that have got interested in the last year away from it.
Rubbish, race de idea by a crash and the stewards changing a decision that was correct by the rules and interpretation it seems that they had announced cos 1 team cried foul. Imagine how classless Vers would have been if the other ay round!
Sounds like ya done ya dough tbh. Not saying its right or wrong, but it was a spectacle
Imagine the grand national, strung out like washing going to second last, horse falls, they all stop n re start from just before the last off a level footing, nah, just a terrible end, it got some cheap tv excitement for about 10 seconds
As someone who doesn't follow F1 it seems to be a big disadvantage to be leading if the safety car comes out which doesn't make sense.
If someone has a 10 second lead when the safety car comes out, I think if he gets overtaken, the other driver has to win by 10 seconds to actually win the race. I know it would be a bit messy but it would be a fairer outcome.
Race Director will be blamed on this debacle (possibly sacked) but result will stand-what else can they do?
People laughing!
This is going to Court. Nothing is settled except the Betfair market
Schadenfreude beware!
This is going to Court. Nothing is settled except the Betfair market
Schadenfreude beware!
Hamilton leading 352-0 then race Director says next goals wins
Lawyers laughing, Journalists laughing, Hoteliers laughing, TV crews laughing, Newspapers laughing, idiots who know nothing about sport laughing!
Sports fans not laughing!.....much!
Lawyers laughing, Journalists laughing, Hoteliers laughing, TV crews laughing, Newspapers laughing, idiots who know nothing about sport laughing!
Sports fans not laughing!.....much!
https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1
/status/1470112011833024520/photo/1
/status/1470112011833024520/photo/1
Max is the Champion*
*will always be disputed.
Max will have to win a title on the track without race director assistance.
*will always be disputed.
Max will have to win a title on the track without race director assistance.
The FIA are going to back their man because it'll would make them and the whole sport look amateurish and embarrassing if they overturned the decision after the dramatic finale, celebrations and whatnot of a world title fight that Abu Dhabi have paid eye watering sums to see happen in their back yard, they've waited years for this but the title has usually been decided long before, also not good for sponsorship and commercial reasons in general for a title to be decided off track, that's why they've rejected Mercedes appeal even though they know full well they he is bang to rights. Massi in a normal job for such a blunder would be sacked, imo they're is a 90%+ chance the court of arbitration for sport will overturn the result, if it stands it's just an asterisk title for Verstappen like Schumacher's in 94. To take it upon himself to spontaneously decide that only the 4 lapped cars in between them were allowed to pass on a wim, instead of all the lapped cars as has always been the case since the inception of the safety car rule, is a disgrace. In literally any of other race of the year all lapped cars would have passed meaning in this instance the race would have ended behind a safety car, it's not what you want to see, but what happened to today was far worse, Lewis was clearly going to win anyway. They'll clutch on to the 'discretion' straw, but in layman's terms, what that actually means is that Massi consciously and single handedly decided that he wanted Max to win the title, because that's was the only outcome that could have happened given he had fresh tyres and the manufactured gap between them, he said on radio he wanted them to 'race' but there literally could never have been a race, one had spikes on and the other was running in plimsoles. It's not tantamount to cheating it is cheating. Been watching F1 since Hakkinen's first title win in 97 or 98 but this has put me off massively.
Kind Regards.
Kind Regards.
The Stewards consider that the protest is admissible.
Having considered the various statements made by the parties the Stewards determine the following: That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.
That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the safety car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end of that lap.
That notwithstanding Mercedes’ request that the Stewards remediate the matter by amending the classification to reflect the positions at the end of the penultimate lap, this is a step that the Stewards believe is effectively shortening the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate.
Accordingly, the Protest is dismissed. The Protest Deposit is not refunded.
Having considered the various statements made by the parties the Stewards determine the following: That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.
That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the safety car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end of that lap.
That notwithstanding Mercedes’ request that the Stewards remediate the matter by amending the classification to reflect the positions at the end of the penultimate lap, this is a step that the Stewards believe is effectively shortening the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate.
Accordingly, the Protest is dismissed. The Protest Deposit is not refunded.
apart from the lack of spaces Mes' which makes a decent post incredibly difficult to read...the idea it was one man's decision I'd question a bit...you not feel he was maybe under a bit of pressure from the owners of the sport to give a tv friendly end...???
I’d like to know in what grounds mes thinks The Court of Arbitration will turn this around?
It’s seems To be an unholy unsolvable mess to me.
The only solution is for the owners of Mercedes to pull the plug on it for the good of the sport.
It’s seems To be an unholy unsolvable mess to me.
The only solution is for the owners of Mercedes to pull the plug on it for the good of the sport.
The FIA seem content that they had enough loopholes in the rulebook to dismiss the protest, so i presume they can get that to stick again. ie they have rules that override the broken rules.
Dont think any safety lines were crossed although it would be interesting to know why the rules provisionally require that the safety car should do an extra lap. Maybe theres a safety reason for that, to avoid the SC turning off track while other cars are trying to overtake it. In any case that doesnt help merc, it more likely gets the FIA a slapped wrist.
From a sporting point of view this is somewhat like nascar where most of the race is irrelevant and you just need to be on the right tyres at the last safety car. Masi hasnt made the event less sporting for merc, thats just how the rules can be with late safety cars, and a consequence of a decision made ages ago to engineer this type of late racing showdown.
Weirdly a lot of the other teams have more right to be aggrieved than merc as they were not given a fair sporting chance but that doesnt apply to hamilton who was quite fairly asked to race from the lead on a clear track
Dont think any safety lines were crossed although it would be interesting to know why the rules provisionally require that the safety car should do an extra lap. Maybe theres a safety reason for that, to avoid the SC turning off track while other cars are trying to overtake it. In any case that doesnt help merc, it more likely gets the FIA a slapped wrist.
From a sporting point of view this is somewhat like nascar where most of the race is irrelevant and you just need to be on the right tyres at the last safety car. Masi hasnt made the event less sporting for merc, thats just how the rules can be with late safety cars, and a consequence of a decision made ages ago to engineer this type of late racing showdown.
Weirdly a lot of the other teams have more right to be aggrieved than merc as they were not given a fair sporting chance but that doesnt apply to hamilton who was quite fairly asked to race from the lead on a clear track
Walofs
The best thing that can happen is for Mercedes to let it go for the good if the sport. Masi and the FIA have ruined the whole season with their stupidity.
If Mercedes take this to The Court of Arbitration for Sport and they win, then what?
I believe the chances are they would win too!
The best thing that can happen is for Mercedes to let it go for the good if the sport. Masi and the FIA have ruined the whole season with their stupidity.
If Mercedes take this to The Court of Arbitration for Sport and they win, then what?
I believe the chances are they would win too!
Guardian :
Meanwhile the FIA’s handling of the highly controversial ending to the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix has been heavily criticised as the sport “marking its own homework” by a leading international arbitration lawyer.
Duncan Bagshaw, a barrister at Howard Kennedy specialising in international arbitration and litigation, was dismissive of the process and said Mercedes would be in a strong position to mount legal action.
“The FIA, marking its own homework, perhaps unsurprisingly said that they stood by the decision of the race director,” he said.
Red Bull’s team principal, Christian Horner, had asked Masi to allow the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton to unlap themselves, leaving the title protagonists closed-up for the crucial final lap. It was initially stated they would not be allowed to do so but it was then announced that those five cars specifically could unlap themselves.
When racing resumed Hamilton was a sitting duck on much older tyres and Verstappen swiftly passed him to take the win and the title. Mercedes protested the handling of the safety car procedures but had their protests rejected.
“Everybody wanted to see that race finish in racing conditions but the rule makes it very clear that any cars that have been lapped by the leader have to be allowed to pass the leading cars and the safety car before the race is restarted and he did not allow that to happen,” said Bagshaw.
“It’s very important for Mercedes to give the message that racing is the most important thing to this sport,” he said.
Meanwhile the FIA’s handling of the highly controversial ending to the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix has been heavily criticised as the sport “marking its own homework” by a leading international arbitration lawyer.
Duncan Bagshaw, a barrister at Howard Kennedy specialising in international arbitration and litigation, was dismissive of the process and said Mercedes would be in a strong position to mount legal action.
“The FIA, marking its own homework, perhaps unsurprisingly said that they stood by the decision of the race director,” he said.
Red Bull’s team principal, Christian Horner, had asked Masi to allow the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton to unlap themselves, leaving the title protagonists closed-up for the crucial final lap. It was initially stated they would not be allowed to do so but it was then announced that those five cars specifically could unlap themselves.
When racing resumed Hamilton was a sitting duck on much older tyres and Verstappen swiftly passed him to take the win and the title. Mercedes protested the handling of the safety car procedures but had their protests rejected.
“Everybody wanted to see that race finish in racing conditions but the rule makes it very clear that any cars that have been lapped by the leader have to be allowed to pass the leading cars and the safety car before the race is restarted and he did not allow that to happen,” said Bagshaw.
“It’s very important for Mercedes to give the message that racing is the most important thing to this sport,” he said.
I have never and would never bet on GP purely cos things like this happen. Can anyone think of any sporting championship that's been so manipulated by the officials to get a result - other than olympic boxing? If the officials in any other sport were so influential in a result there would be corruption investigations and all sorts - in GP it's just accepted.
Don't forget the way the stewards manipulated the Spa debacle so Ver could win. That's 2 races they directly gave him that seems to contravene their own rules. And that is irrespective of the crashes so I've a feeling whatever happens Vers will go down as having only won this as a result of the stewards manipulating the rules and a cloud will forever hang over it. He won't care now and it might inspire him to win many more but wait until he's done his 100th interview on it after retiring!
Don't forget the way the stewards manipulated the Spa debacle so Ver could win. That's 2 races they directly gave him that seems to contravene their own rules. And that is irrespective of the crashes so I've a feeling whatever happens Vers will go down as having only won this as a result of the stewards manipulating the rules and a cloud will forever hang over it. He won't care now and it might inspire him to win many more but wait until he's done his 100th interview on it after retiring!
“Everybody wanted to see that race finish in racing conditions but the rule makes it very clear that any cars that have been lapped by the leader have to be allowed to pass the leading cars and the safety car before the race is restarted and he did not allow that to happen,” said Bagshaw.
Not completely true but also not even remotely relevant to merc, red bull or the championship. Not allowing the other 3 cars to unlap had zero impact on the front two. Max would still have won.
Lawyered
Not completely true but also not even remotely relevant to merc, red bull or the championship. Not allowing the other 3 cars to unlap had zero impact on the front two. Max would still have won.
Lawyered
Max would still have won
You're right - with the way the stewards manipulated the rules so he could win in Spa (remember that) they would def have found a way to dq Hamilton anyway. Either way with Spa and this it is impossible to argue that the stewards/authorities didn't decide who won which is not how it should be. If they hadn't changed their mind (about the overtaking) then there prob wouldn't be many arguing but they did didn't they?
You're right - with the way the stewards manipulated the rules so he could win in Spa (remember that) they would def have found a way to dq Hamilton anyway. Either way with Spa and this it is impossible to argue that the stewards/authorities didn't decide who won which is not how it should be. If they hadn't changed their mind (about the overtaking) then there prob wouldn't be many arguing but they did didn't they?
I'm not a petrolhead and know very little about the sport, but i do like fair play.
It seems Hamilton was 12 sec clear of Verstappen when raced stopped. So when they restart, why can't LH have a 12 sec start on MV, then have the race restart?
It seems Hamilton was 12 sec clear of Verstappen when raced stopped. So when they restart, why can't LH have a 12 sec start on MV, then have the race restart?
Changing his mind was frustrating but i think he changed it to a better call. Providing he has the authority within the rules to do what he did.
I dont agree Masi decided the race, i think he did the opposite. But i obviously see the other side too.
When Lewis complained 3 times that the safety car was going too slow, you can interpret that as mercedes trying to manipulate the race by hurrying up the SC and finishing the race, or as Masi telling the SC to slow down so he can do his best to get the track cleared and have a race.
I see it the same with his backmarker decision. Mercedes want to run the clock down and masi has used everything within the rules (he claims) to stop the clock being run down. He hasnt decided to give it to max, he decided not to let the season finish under a safety car when there was no reason to have a safety car there.
I dont agree Masi decided the race, i think he did the opposite. But i obviously see the other side too.
When Lewis complained 3 times that the safety car was going too slow, you can interpret that as mercedes trying to manipulate the race by hurrying up the SC and finishing the race, or as Masi telling the SC to slow down so he can do his best to get the track cleared and have a race.
I see it the same with his backmarker decision. Mercedes want to run the clock down and masi has used everything within the rules (he claims) to stop the clock being run down. He hasnt decided to give it to max, he decided not to let the season finish under a safety car when there was no reason to have a safety car there.
Masi should've let all lapped cars unlap themselves or none.
Instead, what he decided was to just let the 5 between Lewis & Max unlap.
If he'd stuck with his original decision, the race would've finished under the safety car.
However, the fairest call would've been not to allow unlapping, & allow Max to try & overtake the 5 cars in front.
If he'd done that, there'd have been no complaints.
Instead, Masi fudged it by half following the rules.
Instead, what he decided was to just let the 5 between Lewis & Max unlap.
If he'd stuck with his original decision, the race would've finished under the safety car.
However, the fairest call would've been not to allow unlapping, & allow Max to try & overtake the 5 cars in front.
If he'd done that, there'd have been no complaints.
Instead, Masi fudged it by half following the rules.
Letting everyone unlap is the long established norm so you dont have a restart and put everyone under blue flags immediately. You would effectively have cars that have to slow down and pull over while others are speeding up and racing. Doesnt sound like the safest option to me.
It can of course be argued that masi allowed that unsafe scenario for sainz, riccardo etc at the back of the field, but that wouldnt have any bearing on the championship, just on masi.
It can of course be argued that masi allowed that unsafe scenario for sainz, riccardo etc at the back of the field, but that wouldnt have any bearing on the championship, just on masi.
The real-time reactions of the drivers during the safety car period clearly shows that the proper procedures were not followed.
Worth a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K469WuoDJTw&t=769s
Worth a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K469WuoDJTw&t=769s
Imagine a football match. One side is leading 5-0 with a few minutes to go but is now down to 9 men. Ref blows up and decides match will now be decided on golden goal.
Good video. Was clearly a sh1tshow at the back although i would maintain still that has no bearing on the championship.
Interesting that Vettel and Alonso both thought Masi was too slow to let cars unlap. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt that they understand the implications of that ie either the track is clear or clear enough that they dont need to be behind a safety car.
Which to me, only confirms red bulls point even more. The decision to not let 3 cars unlap, which would have took practically no time at all, had no bearing at all on the championship, whether they unlap or dont unlap, it has no impact on max or lewis
It does seem that most drivers would have been pretty ok with nobody unlapping and the chaos of blue flags though.
Interesting that Vettel and Alonso both thought Masi was too slow to let cars unlap. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt that they understand the implications of that ie either the track is clear or clear enough that they dont need to be behind a safety car.
Which to me, only confirms red bulls point even more. The decision to not let 3 cars unlap, which would have took practically no time at all, had no bearing at all on the championship, whether they unlap or dont unlap, it has no impact on max or lewis
It does seem that most drivers would have been pretty ok with nobody unlapping and the chaos of blue flags though.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539