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26 Aug 18 21:34
Date Joined: 18 Feb 02
| Topic/replies: 3,340 | Blogger: mrcombustible's blog
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Report The Gotchee August 26, 2018 9:53 PM BST
He was a top class trainer for a short while but for whatever reason he made a bollix of things. Probably staff. He'll be no loss.
Weld, Oxx, Prendergast, Lynam, Halford and to a slightly lesser extent Bolger are on the way out.
Joseph, Lyons, Murtagh, Mc Creery are going to be the new order.
Thats life.
Report jimeen August 26, 2018 10:12 PM BST
I agree with you , he will be no loss . He is a dirty thing and it just shows that his tricking and messing with horses is a waste of time . A few things I don’t agree  with you though , Weld is not on the way out, he’s still a force , while Lynam was never inside in the first place , to be on the way out . As for McCreery being in the new order, I wouldn’t have him on my mind as being a proper trainer, and I fancy Lyons will be found out too in the finish .
Report RoyalAcademy August 27, 2018 12:10 PM BST
I suppose Martin's best effort was his Galway of a few year's back. The owners that count nowadays have little interest in the ego of trainers and you can check out a list of ex-Gigginstown handlers to see who the slow learners are. WPM clearly is the exception to this rule who argued for a sustainable training fee-something he didn't need but who stood for a principle.

Speaking of slow learners, a trainer who speaks his mind will fail or at least will not attain the heights they might dream about. APOB is a "made" man in the Tony Soprano context in that he is effectively a paid employee and some of the "new order" named above will train plenty of winners but a place at the top table will elude them. Training success, like every sport from soccer to cycling to F1, is now dictated by the oligarchs and if you are not a favoured son or daughter you will measure success by sheer numbers not Grade 1's. In the present context my own light-hearted take on things would be:

JSB: haemorrhaging cash on an operation that badly needs its next Darley stallion - very informative that the Sheikh never bit on the Verbal Dexterity bait

Weld: are stable health issues disguising greater problems? Very slow to offer his son(s) any credit or prominence and you wonder about how that goes down at home? That boat could easily be missed.

Oxx: today's fish and chip wrapping paper

GML: at his own admission, too mouthy. Will continue to pay the price and his operation will be Pipe-esque rather than imperial.

W McCreery: similar to Mich Channon-worthy but will never get the patronage of those who really count.

Murtagh: burnt some boats in his day and will be the Ted Walsh of Irish Racing in time.

O'Brien dynasty: as long as the present status quo remains in Irish racing.

New entrants will emerge who are now sons and grandsons (it will remain male-dominated unless you are exceptionally well-connected) of today's leading owners and breeders. Dynasties in recent memory rarely last beyond a generation and recent history is littered with then household names that the facebook and twitter generation would barely recognise: Sangster, Schwartz, Bunker Hunt, St George, Joel, Sobell, Weinstock, Salman etc.

Change will be dramatic when it comes and John Magnier, Michael Tabor, Derek Smith, The Aga Khan, Prince Abdullah, Sheikhs Mohammed and Hamdan are no more but one billionaire will replace another and will choose their own handlers. Get your son into Clongowes, Glenstal or Eton, speak "proper", develop a faux common touch whilst secretly believing that the Royal carriage rather than the Royal Hunt Cup is the ultimate proof you have arrived.

In terms of who will make the greatest impact as a flat trainer over the next 10 years the answer is Willie Mullins. He is simply too good not to be curating the assets of the mega wealthy. It is simply incredible he is still training horses to win mares' maiden hurdles in Tramore and Sligo. Not Tony Martin, obviously.
Report firstimevisor August 27, 2018 5:13 PM BST
Neither of the Weld sons will take over when or if the old man steps down. They have nothing to do with running the yard and both work outside the industry.
Report CALLING CARD August 28, 2018 9:59 PM BST
irelands top table
surely within a few years it will suffer a climatic change
prendergast will suffer now his old golfing buddy has moved on to the racecourse in the sky
oxx is a light of yesteryear
weld even though johneen is a fan is the wrong side of 70 is suffering financially by all accounts and has suffered at the hands of joseph as regards the us patronage,, moyglare are no longer as active..
collins is gone
stack a total joke
elliot will expand on the flat and his set up is condusive to flat training
mccreery runs a tight ship but will never expand to a lyons type outfit becoz of a space issue where he trains
lyons with the jones and spratt money will keep it going once they keep selling
donnacha will train soon
lynam has tried hard to get his daughter thriving but its a failure so far
meade gone too
mullins needs to try the flat more and buy more yearlings
will there be another trainer to emerge ??
o callaghan and prendergast will survive
sin e
Report RoyalAcademy August 29, 2018 1:47 PM BST
What's interesting about this analysis of the future flat training landscape is that it's very clear an oligarch is needed to have any hope of success at the highest level.

Could the Ballydoyle success survive without the commanding influence of the main man? Two-thirds of the racing budget will probably automatically vanish.

Would the dominant NH owners change code if they see opportunities to dominate?

When Vincent O'Brien retired in the 80's - following a few quiet years after his main backers had suffered a few bloody noses - Irish flat racing went through a decade or more (maybe 15 years in all) of being in the doldrums. Interestingly, this was also mirrored by a very fallow period for Irish National Hunt abroad and many of our top prizes were plundered every year under both codes. It also coincided with the emergence of Dubai's influence.

In such a small country it is impossible to imagine anyone consistently competing for national and international Grade 1's without massive spending power. A racing budget is a bottomless pit whoever you are and the top flight trainer is likely to be ruled by just one owner or group.
Report pa lapsy August 29, 2018 8:57 PM BST
A really good thread,the racing knowledge way surpassing meself and loved the forum for this,sorry for Martin myself,i know he could be described as a "trickey" but by feck he could get one ready, personnally speaking i think it's a shame.As for the future odds on in 5 years time the O briens will continue to dominate whether 2,3 or 4 names, the "lesser" trainers taking the ferry,not necessarily for a touch but as now simply finding it hard to win.
Report kavvie August 30, 2018 9:29 AM BST
the article today by richard forrestal in the racing post is intresting,and worrying in equal measure,publicity is the life blood of any sport and we are about to plummett in 3 months.from what i seen of ruk they are very british and i dont think they will have much time for irish racing at all..the piece on the right about the curragh  parade ring is  funny if it wasnt true?  after the scandals of the huge amounts of wasted millions in the greyhound industry i thought this kind of farce was behind us?  the sad thing is the people responsible will not be removed or suffer in any way as the case in the igb?  i know a lot of people laugh at trumps america but id say if this happened over there the people responsible would be gone within hours..
Report irishone August 30, 2018 1:03 PM BST
I agree kavvie.
Think we have to accept that breaking the rules of sports and getting away with it has become a perceived respectable occupation.
I believe that since the celtic tiger and the fortunes that were lost in the crash ,its been dog eat dog and every man for himself.
Our sporting institutions are riddled with  corruption or\and lack of transparency.
Report RoyalAcademy August 30, 2018 1:50 PM BST
Stand open to correction kavvie but the likely extra cost at the Curragh is probably down to the private owners. The big test for the track will be in selling it as an inclusive sport and not just for the bowler hats and major owner/breeders. Central to this must be affordability and it is surely a very unsatisfying job so far for the heralded Derek McGrath where negativity (racing on  a building site, disaster of the Derby restrictions, parade ring and cost over run) have been the predominant themes. They're hiring their PR and marketing team at present so will be watching with interest.

If anyone thinks that the TV rights issue is about anything other than the power of the tracks and AIR over every other interest then think again. The profit motive trumps all else and HRI seem powerless to stop the tail wagging. John Osborne was hired as the head of HRI racecourses following his stint in the National Stud. He has been virtually invisible since his appointment. The one thing you can say about all this is that the punter/racegoer has little or no say.

pa, I do agree that landing a touch or getting and horse handicapped who can then go on and win when EXPECTED would be one of the best signs  of a trainer in my book. That, and finding cheap horses to outrun their value.
Report kavvie August 30, 2018 3:45 PM BST
the "profit motive " is fine until the product that the profit is coming from starts to lose it profitablity due to dwindling interest ad lack of exposure..
Report The Gotchee August 30, 2018 10:45 PM BST
is John Osborne any relation to Joe?
The HRI is a Joke Shop.
Report 2010Shergar August 30, 2018 11:14 PM BST
Brother both sons of Michael.
Report workrider August 31, 2018 9:03 AM BST
R.A. You should go racing more often, I meet John on track most days...
Report GEORGE.B September 10, 2018 12:03 AM BST
What an interesting thread!

As an outsider looking in, one name not mentioned is Gavin Cromwell, who seems to have come from nowhere in a relatively short space of time, could he be one to take a step forward and form part of the 'new order'?
Report workrider September 10, 2018 11:50 AM BST
He seems to be getting lots of winners recently alright George, but sitting at the top table is another thing altogether...
Report cloone river September 10, 2018 8:14 PM BST
Doing well the last 4 years.Seems to have lots of runners and owns a nice **** jacket.
Report cloone river September 10, 2018 8:23 PM BST
The other exchange.
Report kincsem September 13, 2018 9:27 AM BST
Interesting stuff.
Top jumps trainers of the past (Vincent O'Brien; Aidan O'Brien) have moved to the flat, and as pointed out above, that could happen again.
A decision by a billionaire can empty or fill a racing stable, and make or break a trainer.
One trainer skill not mentioned above is "training owners". Mischief
Report GEORGE.B October 6, 2018 5:28 PM BST
    10 Sep 18 00:03

As an outsider looking in, one name not mentioned is Gavin Cromwell, who seems to have come from nowhere in a relatively short space of time, could he be one to take a step forward and form part of the 'new order'? 

Just won a Group 2 in France with a filly bred to be a dish washer!
Report Racingqueen October 19, 2018 8:37 PM BST
Can you imagine flat racing in this country without Coolmore.....Jesus it would be akin to flapping

10 winners would get you in the top 20 in Ireland on the flat ffs
Report jimeen October 19, 2018 9:51 PM BST
The bulk of Irish flat trainers wouldn’t train a dog to sit down , and they can consider themselves very lucky that Willie Mullins never decides to go training on the flat full time . You can see by his strike rate on the flat , how much superior he is to every flat trainer in the country bar maybe Aidan O Brien.
Bluffers like Lyons , Stack , Halford , McCreery , O Callaghan wouldn’t train 5 winners a year if Mullins and Elliott turned to the flat . You can see the impression Harrington has made on the flat , how superior jumps trainers are to their flat counterparts.
Report olddesperado October 20, 2018 12:09 AM BST
If costa coffee packed up and left ireland tomorrow would coffee be fcked in this country ?

Of course it wouldnt , at least two independent local shops would open up in most big towns immediately and things would go on .
Report olddesperado October 20, 2018 12:21 AM BST
Aidan is a fantastic trainer but he is so successful sometimes horses get losy in the numbers.

The irish horses that stick in my mind are sinndar, sea the stars, new approach, etc

My point is can anyone remember what top races camelot, dylan thomas, etc won ?.

Everything in the one stable is not really a plus imo.
Report olddesperado October 20, 2018 12:22 AM BST
Get lost in the numbers
Report cloone river October 20, 2018 12:37 AM BST
Its all about the stud fees.
Report norn iron October 20, 2018 10:03 AM BST


Report frank60 October 20, 2018 12:41 PM BST
Jimeen i seem to remember Michael Dickinson training the 1st 5 home in the gold cup at chentenham along with many other jump winners, he was givin a plum job in the U.S to train flat winners ;to say he was a disater would be putting it mindly, there no guarantee if you great as a jump trainer that will be great as a flat trainer.
Report mrcombustible October 21, 2018 8:17 AM BST
Dickinson did win a Breeders Cup Mile with Da Hoss
Report frank60 October 21, 2018 11:05 AM BST
Correct mrcombustible. but one swollow never made a summer, Michael gave up the the training and is in buisness of making synthetic racetrack surfacing , A good jockey in his day.
Report jimeen October 21, 2018 11:26 AM BST
Frank, maybe Dickinson was tired of training any kind of horses, who knows ?
He went to Manton and nobody had much success there for some reason. All the top trainers in the jumps in Ireland can have winners on the flat, but I wouldn’t fancy some of these flat yokes to do much over the jumps.
Report frank60 October 21, 2018 11:44 AM BST
Willie Mullins dad Paddy had a few good flat horses, some of the oldies [like myself] on the irish forum will remember Hurry Harriet who won a few good pots in the early 70s, there a race called after him which is run in Gorwan park.
Report jimeen October 21, 2018 12:14 PM BST
Frank , Paddy Mullins was an outstanding trainer , training gold cup , champion hurdle winners , classic winners on the flat etc. The one chap that gets on my goat is Lyons, if he didn’t marry well , he’d be still shoveling shiite down in Peter McCreerys . He’s never won a classic , he might have had one winner in Ascot in some lottery sprint , never had a Group 1 winner anywhere , in fact he’s never trained anything of any note in his life . But when he comes on the telly , you’d swear it was Bob Baffert that was talking , with all this glenburnie bawloxx talk . Where the fukk is glenburnie ?, nobody knows and nobody cares either .
Report mrcombustible October 21, 2018 1:41 PM BST
Yes it is very strange that all trainers have failed at Manton.
Agree that Paddy Mullins was a brilliant dual purpose trainer.
Report workrider October 21, 2018 9:08 PM BST
Ger did train a Group 1 Winner..
Report joevalue147 October 21, 2018 9:55 PM BST
Tony Martin has'nt had much luck since the Noble Emperor controversy.
Report jimeen October 21, 2018 10:12 PM BST
Wonker , you are indeed correct , apologies , I had forgotten about the mighty lightening pearl winning the Cheveley Park stakes , beating those 2 flying machines Sunday Times and Angels Will Fall .
Report Racingqueen October 21, 2018 11:18 PM BST
Laugh ^

Martin was never top class. When Gigginstown gave him some better quality he made a pile of 5hit of it.
Report cloone river October 22, 2018 1:09 AM BST
And the horses he got from gigginstown were superstars?Tony is a good trainer.When it comes to laying one out for the big day.His Tudor city that ran today should come on when up in trip.I agree about Noble Emperor its a wonder he has never ran since?
Report RoyalAcademy October 22, 2018 10:49 AM BST
What I often look for in a trainer is nuance. What has he/she done that it could be said "that was clever".

Whether its laying one out for a handicap or buying well, (relatively) cheaply or, as Tony Martin sometime did - and mentioned above - to get one ready for a specific day. You go to a Killarney Festival, say, and your trainer helps to pay for your holiday. That to me is training horses at the bread and butter level.

What is far more common is ruining a handicap mark - how often will one (stupid)run in three guarantee a horse is rated a stone more than it should? This incompetence is so frequent it is completely daft. For a lot of trainers, handicaps are an after-thought. By the time they realise what they have, they are 12 months too late in terms of training strategy.

You look for clues in their training methods: doing well with a particular breeding family, an eye for a particular sire, recognising opportunities at a particular track, playing the going game well: Irish does a great job recording every winner in Ireland and the immediate, ebullient comments of connections in the post race euphoria but the examples I speak of above are fewer and fewer. Jimeen's favourite trainer sees only conditions races, horses buzzed to the last and the ferry to England or the night train to Hong Kong.

A trainer once told me he was so convinced he had bought a yearling as a bargain (€15,000 cast-off from a major stud) that he was shaking and crying as he signed the sales docket. He subsequently got $600,000 for the two-year-old. The narrative we see in Ireland'a flat scene is far, far too dull.
Report jimeen October 22, 2018 11:37 AM BST
Royal Academy, all we ever hear about are the success stories , the 15k purchase that made 600 like you refer to . What about the thousands of 15k purchases plus training fees , that finish up in a tin can . It’s the owners who are shaking and crying in those many instances . I met a trainer one night , who had a winner in Roscommon the previous week that was well backed from 7/1 to 4/1 . He said to me how he couldn’t understand how it was 7/1, he thought it was a fantastic price . I nodded in agreement as you would , but inwardly I thought to myself “ it was 7/1 because you wouldnt know when you’d enough eaten , and because every punter you ever had in the yard finished up with no underpants “ . That’s trainers all over , great men for remembering the triumphs but with bad amnesia when it comes to the defeats.
Report frank60 October 22, 2018 11:16 PM BST
Jimeen i belive its called selective memory ,,to be fair we all suffer from it when we yap about horse racing.We all do a runner if some dude keeps talking about how unlucky he was.
Report CALLING CARD October 23, 2018 9:59 PM BST
trainers are con artists who like to sell the story for as long as possible
only the independent guys wont tolerate that crap
but tbh owners love to be fed ****
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