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roadrunner46
19 Dec 16 18:49
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Date Joined: 25 Apr 11
| Topic/replies: 5,120 | Blogger: roadrunner46's blog
what a load of tosh, the trainer kept his training fees at the same level for 10 years, and now all of a sudden you think his raised his rates
because of greed, would of thought you irish punters would have lot more respect for such a successful trainer, who no doubt has filled up
your pockets with cash of the years. would say michael o leary is the more prone to greediness, quote  from michael o leary " youre not getting
a refund so fcuk off"
Pause Switch to Standard View Michael o Leary been justified
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Report firstimevisor December 19, 2016 6:50 PM GMT
Could be interesting to revisit this thread after Punchestown in April. Its a bit early in the season still. Will these horses hold their form throughout the season as Mullins horses do?
Report Bigwillystyle December 19, 2016 7:04 PM GMT
O'Leary was only the third or fourth most important owner in the yard after Richi and Wiley. It suited Mullins for him to leave and it probably suited O'Leary as well. Wiley has upped the amount of horses he has in the yard and apparently is very easy to deal with and the horses run where Mullins says they will run.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 19, 2016 7:05 PM GMT
Well if they're in the care of Elliot I'd be amazed if they don't.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 19, 2016 7:06 PM GMT
Imagine paying thousands on horses and not having any say where you want them to run Crazy
Report Bigwillystyle December 19, 2016 7:14 PM GMT
Well the bould Gordon will have to do what he is told now.

Mullins dictates what is done. That is the difference.  While we are at it, if your product is better than everyone's else's you should be raising the price and anyone who doesn't pay, you tell them to FU CK off like Mullins did.
Elliott will have anywhere near the amount of ammo as Mullins at Christmas
Report GANT007 December 19, 2016 8:16 PM GMT
O'Leary's supply line is cut now with regard to the best French horses. Mullins main patrons have also upped the ante.
We all know the way Gigginstown operate and to get the stock you have to humour them. You are only 2 performance letters away from the transporter arriving.
Report mitch leary December 19, 2016 8:26 PM GMT
Ricci it appears gets preference on the French horses anyway.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 19, 2016 8:58 PM GMT
I think ultimately MOL wants horses who are good enough to win a gold cup, amazingly that race is still missing from mullins' cv and that is some feat giving his ammunition over the years, didn't take Elliot that long when MOL gave him the ammunition.
Report GANT007 December 19, 2016 9:05 PM GMT
10 years on from his 1st Gold Cup in 2006.
Report neill d December 19, 2016 10:08 PM GMT
Remains to be seen I feel, Elliot's trajectory is such I wouldn't like to say what he won't do. If O'Brien wasn't such a young man himself you'd say he'd be next in at Coolmore.

One thing that is in Elliot's favour in a big way with an eye to the future is that it is extremely likely that the two best novice hurdlers in Britain and Ireland are Blow by Blow and Death Duty both trained by Elliot, owned by O'Leary.

Mullins strength is usually this area and he got put on the seat of his pants on Sunday at Navan going on the Invitation Only was backed, I'd be surprised if that wan't his Neptune horse. Gone to Navan with Pont Alexandre, Mikhael D'Hageunet, Boston Bob and others after all.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 19, 2016 10:36 PM GMT
That's the main reason I started this thread neil, Mullins isn't getting it all his own way this season as he has in previous seasons,
Which can only be good for racing, think everyone was getting fed up watching Willies 300k plus purchases hack around at 1-4, this season it ain't happening as frequent, Senewalk probably been most glaring example and as you just mentioned invitation only,
Also doesn't seem to be farming the bumpers every week as he previously did.
Report neill d December 19, 2016 10:44 PM GMT
I can see where you're coming from for sure. He doesn't seem to have the raw number of Bumper horses he did 2 or 3 years ago.

Given the number of Irish bred point they buy, and that there are likely a number of the higher end Irish pointing guys dependent on Gigginstown, will it be that they pick up the best from that realm, and maybe Mullins is frozen out of there?

And Mullins continues to pick up the best from France and Gigginstown have to make do with the lessers the way paul Nicholls has.

That seems a pretty even fight to me.

One thing Mullins is very adept at doing is taking decent flat horses and making graded hurdlers out of them.
Report Bigwillystyle December 19, 2016 10:59 PM GMT
Senewalk wasn't in the slightest way fancied in Punchestown. It's well known he is a burster.
As for invitation only, I doubt that the best he is and even if it was he isn't in the top 6 novices Mullins has.
Report Bigwillystyle December 19, 2016 11:01 PM GMT
He is not farming races because his horse were behind this year. Wait for Jan when it wil really hit top gear. Will blow Elliott out of the water!
Report GANT007 December 19, 2016 11:38 PM GMT
Willie loses a team of 60 top horses he put together for gigginstown and lads on here are writing him off. Dream on lads.
Report neill d December 19, 2016 11:59 PM GMT
Nobody is writing Mullins off, Elliot ha a pretty phenomenal team of horses these days as well and his rate of progress in the last couple of years is astonishing.

Can't see how Mullins would not be better off having kept the likes Blow by Blow and Death Duty, losing horses like that is never a positive and will effect him in the short to medium term.

Can't think of a single time in his career when Elliot hasn't risen to a challenge and while Mullins is a worthy fav, can see Elliot giving him hell to get the job done and be champion trainer.
Report neill d December 20, 2016 12:01 AM GMT
Irish Grand National will have a big baring on who is champion trainer this year given the prize fund.
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2016 12:08 AM GMT
There's a misconception that WPM has or had a monopoly on expensive purchases in recent years. This is rubbish. O Leary, JP, Potts, Rooney, Munir and Connell spend as much, some of them much more, on stock than Ricci or Wylie ever have. Potts has scarcely had a proper top grade 1 horse since Sizing Europe after spending tens of millions. The difference,without doubt, is WPM. He is in another league altogether.
As for this year's novices,(Neill D- blow by blow still hasnt jumped a hurdle in public so he sure cant be called the best novice this year), we wont know until April who the best are and a lot can and will happen before then.
Report neill d December 20, 2016 12:16 AM GMT
Wouldn't put down Mullins success to financial muscle either, firsttime; he is indeed a tremendous trainer, the best of his generation.

Whether Death Duty can or can't jump, (I'd be surprised if he can't) Death Duty sets a pretty exacting standard as it is. Given the job Elliot has done with the likes of Don Cossack, there is every reason to believe he can't extract the full potential from these horses. it is what makes the contest with Mullins so intriguing, an all-time great trainer against a trainer with all-time great potential and both of them want to be the main man. Its great.
Report neill d December 20, 2016 12:16 AM GMT
Blow by Blow can or can't jump rather*
Report Arklearkle December 20, 2016 12:38 AM GMT
WM has won four grade 1s this season the same as this time last season - GE has 1. There is still a long way to go and yes the Irish Grand National, like its counter-part in the UK, could have a big bearing on who tops the list. GE is a super trainer and I have sung his praises on here before now and no doubt he will win scores of grade 1s in the future but 25% of the trainers who trained GC winners in the past could hardly tie their own laces let alone tie WM's who has had about six seconds in the race and I've no doubt On His Own would have got the race if connections had appealed.
In my view WM is still favourite for the trainers title
Report CheltenhamRoar December 20, 2016 2:30 PM GMT
Mullins is the best of his generation by a mile, ask most trainers and jockeys what race they'd love to win most, I'd be fairly sure the gold cup would be numero uno with most, for all his genius, not having trained a winner of the blue riband of NH racing must be fairly infuriating for willie, just like it was with AP having never won the national until don't push it set that record straight.
Report Bigwillystyle December 20, 2016 3:13 PM GMT
Hasnt being buying that type of horse. 

As an aside, you would think that one of those dopey Arabs would send Mullins 100-150 horses for the flat.  Would give it some go id say.
Report kincsem December 20, 2016 7:26 PM GMT
I would be exceptionally surprised if the Mullins / O'Leary parting was only because of a small increase in training fees.
My guess is the press statement was a PR "no comment" acceptable to both parties, a bit like rock groups having "artistic differences".
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 7:45 PM GMT
Kincsem.....Spot on.
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2016 9:05 PM GMT
He isn't spot on, it was because of the increase, nothing more.

Normally when a trainer splits with a big owner the official line is there was no falling out but just the time was right to move on, whereas its usually about money at the end of the day.
In this case both parties came right out and said that they fell out over the fees.... and now you think its something else!
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 10:27 PM GMT
Thank you firsttimevisor for telling us the real reason.

And there was some of us thinking it was about control and Willie not starting the horses off until the week after Down Royal.
Report neill d December 20, 2016 10:33 PM GMT
That's very interesting GANT and would make a lot of sense if that is also part of the reason.
Report Rocketfingers December 20, 2016 10:36 PM GMT
Gant kidding along on here that he has the inside line on Mullins and that there is way more to meet the eye despite what i am hearing from my Lambourn mates, plenty of who have much closer connections to the yard than you gant.
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 10:39 PM GMT
Well what did your Lambourn mates tell you?.
Report Rocketfingers December 20, 2016 10:39 PM GMT
Wink
Report pa lapsy December 20, 2016 10:40 PM GMT
That twas Fraser on his imaginary bags and not Frazer
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2016 10:40 PM GMT
The real reason is in the public domain.

When does WPM ever kick off his season and when has he ever handed over control to an owner who wouldn't know how to train?
Report Rocketfingers December 20, 2016 10:44 PM GMT
Absolutely, firstimevisor is tearing gant a new one Laugh

Gant stick to the political classes.
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 10:46 PM GMT
Willie kicks off his season the week after Down Royal's big meeting. As far as I know he will not be dictated to, not even from an owners brother.
At least when one of the horses he bought for them wins they give him a mention.
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 10:48 PM GMT
Rocketfingers, have you ever been to Lambourn?.
Report Rocketfingers December 20, 2016 10:50 PM GMT
Nice try gant Wink
Report GANT007 December 20, 2016 10:54 PM GMT
Only joking I doubt the folk in Lambourn would be too interested in a little bit of tarmac left over from a motorway job.
Not great for horses feet that stuff.
Report workrider December 20, 2016 10:59 PM GMT
LaughLaughLaugh
Report Arklearkle December 20, 2016 11:02 PM GMT
Its a pity plenty more of the trainers here wouldnt show a bit of backbone as well. If the owners know more than the trainers they should train them themselves or get a guinea-pig type to do their bidding for them
Report CheltenhamRoar December 20, 2016 11:35 PM GMT
Great concept that Arkle. Except if it wasn't for owners trainers wouldn't have a horse to train.
Report Ozymandius December 20, 2016 11:36 PM GMT
Laugh
Report Arklearkle December 20, 2016 11:45 PM GMT
Chelt its a vicious circle - horses owners trainers jockeys punters sponsors (taxpayers even) all in the loop. We've moved on from Lord Derby running his good one against his pal's good one. Of course owners are important but most know sweet feck all about training horses
Report CheltenhamRoar December 20, 2016 11:57 PM GMT
Well that's hard to disagree with, it's like the rich foreign owners in foootbskl now, clueless, but they pay the money and call the shots
Report CheltenhamRoar December 20, 2016 11:57 PM GMT
*football
Report Arklearkle December 21, 2016 12:01 AM GMT
... and sack their managers which I agree is their right but he doesnt tell the striker how take penalties. Same of course applies to horse-racing
Report GANT007 December 21, 2016 12:02 AM GMT
Listen lads it's a business and some trainers hate the sight of some of their owners.
Report CheltenhamRoar January 30, 2017 7:40 PM GMT
Why was my opening post removed? Ffs pathetic
Report luckyme January 30, 2017 8:27 PM GMT
seems willie still has a bit of clout, Grin
Report CheltenhamRoar January 30, 2017 11:25 PM GMT
Truth hurts as they say Wink
Report CheltenhamRoar March 15, 2017 7:13 PM GMT
That mares hurdle must have hurt willie
Report whosaidwhat March 15, 2017 10:57 PM GMT
ah poor willie , those pesky training fees!
Report macrocky March 17, 2017 2:46 PM GMT
MOL argued over 40 euro a month per horse. But remember he was the guy who kicked up over the 5 euro flight tax.
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