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28 Apr 16 09:54
Date Joined: 08 Mar 01
| Topic/replies: 8,594 | Blogger: Kelly's blog
No posts about the running of this horse from the knockers . Presumably the horse was looking on in the prestige races it contested against the likes of Cue Card , Djakadam , Don Poli etc .

Out the back as usual , destroys the better fancied ( pricewise) opponents .

Suspect the difference was in the going , and all of those toiling in his wake maybe had off days .  It does prove a point or two though , does it not ?
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Report wildmanfromborneo April 28, 2016 9:58 AM BST
He didnt go to Aintree they all did,although he was stopped plenty of times as a Novice.
Report Kelly April 28, 2016 10:27 AM BST
Used to be horses running at Aintree often failed to reproduce form shown at Cheltenham . Cheltenham / Aintree form more or less held up generally this year as I recall , maybe 3 runs in 6 weeks is too many for some horses --they are not like your Mercedes or Ferrari .

If some of the hotpots getting chinned every day so far were running in certain colours I think they would have attracted a lot of adverse comments .

Horses are not machines , like golfers they dont always play to their best form . How can someone shoot 61 around Portrush and not reproduce that regularly ? Doing a Beaman ?
Report wildmanfromborneo April 28, 2016 10:37 AM BST
It was the rarified air of Mexico that helped Bob Beaman.

Any professional golfer can beat another on a given day,not true about horses.
The golfer that shot 61 round Portrush could follow it up with a 75 and not play that badly.
Report Kelly April 28, 2016 10:47 AM BST
We agree that golfers and athletes are not machines , so let it be also for horses . And presumably Mexico , Moscow , Santry , Stockholm , etc all represent different surfaces and atmospheric conditions ( not to mention different measurers ) .
Report wildmanfromborneo April 28, 2016 11:00 AM BST
Athletes tend torun the same times.
Horses tend to run to their rating.

Golfers are totally different as luck,ability to handle pressure all have a bearing on their score.
Report RoyalAcademy April 28, 2016 11:13 AM BST
John Kiely something of an anachronism today. Something of a surprise he would train for JP-not sure he'd be selected today.

When a horse gets to a certain level he simply runs on merit and judicious race planning can be the difference. A fit honest horse will occasionally beat a champion and an over-raced champion can sometimes cry enough. Early Curragh meetings display the former, Punchestown, the latter.

What a run Mrs J Harrington is on: delighted to see Colm O'Donoughue prospering there.
Report Temlett April 28, 2016 11:59 AM BST
100% correct from WMFB.

To actually use Carlingford Lough as an example which I would assume is being used to portray JP horses as no different from any others, in light of the incorrect comments on the Noble Emperor thread is both naive and very humorous.
Report Temlett April 28, 2016 12:02 PM BST
Also interesting that events in Mexico are used in this context.
Report Arklearkle April 28, 2016 12:18 PM BST
Well said Templett. Kelly I imagine you know much about John Kiely.
Report Arklearkle April 28, 2016 12:19 PM BST
.... should read you DONT know much  ...
Report cloone river April 28, 2016 3:51 PM BST
Horses are not machines and can have off days.
Report Catch Me ifyoucan April 28, 2016 6:50 PM BST
Horses are not machines.....except DOUVAN IS
Report Kelly April 28, 2016 7:15 PM BST
Funny , I hear jockeys consistently talk about luck in running , and the number of "bridle horse" posters on here indicates the effect of pressure .  Guess I have had a different view of horse racing from you wildman .

Not sure what the reference to incorrect comments on the Noble Emperor thread is about Temlett , anything I posted on there has been substantiated by the official findings , unlike a lot of negative posters comments there . Did you post anything on that thread ?  Nothing about the Noble Emperor case or other allegations made regularly is in any way humorous . Racing has to be viewed as a business with sport as the main platform, its a serious businee though . And thankfully our horsey people do a good job ( with occasional exceptions from the stewards ) .
Report pa lapsy April 28, 2016 7:39 PM BST
I,d fall into the negative comments on that thread,what harm, offical findings or not i'm convinced it was pure rotten.
Can you prove it? Very hard to really and that was the cop out route of "official findings"
Report Kelly April 28, 2016 8:10 PM BST
Pa , whatever about the running of certain horses in certain colours , in the Noble Emperor case the stewards backed a loser . Winner stole the race , employing completely different tactics from its 2 previous runs ( suggest you look at them , and then look at the Limerick race ).

If you want to get somebody , you walk quietly and carry a big stick , but woe betide you if you miss , you have to cop the consequences , and the stewards / officialdom just finished up with egg on their faces , big time . Nearly every stable I have seen over the years has had ups and downs , owners too . Most owners stick to one or two trainers , JP spreads his horses around , and quite a few are with unfashionable trainers .

Is every citizen on this island to be viewed as trustworthy ? How many people would you trust with your life --I suspect its not that many . Every one has their own agenda , finding trustworthy people and sticking with them thorugh thick and thin is not always easy , particularly if the media become involved ( and their musings sell papers etc ) .

Horses are ofttimes like people , they make fools of most of us , two at least did already this week , maybe more . Just as well they weren't in certain colours , otherwise there would have been no room on the forum to post .
Report punchestown April 28, 2016 9:15 PM BST
Kelly,I have the exact opposite opinion on the Noble Emperer case,whether it was pilot error or otherwise on BJG's behalf I'm not sure but the ride wasn't what it should have been.
Report punchestown April 28, 2016 9:19 PM BST
BTW,I chose my words very carefully on the above post...
Report Kelly April 28, 2016 10:21 PM BST
He still beat the other horses in the race ( bar the gambled on winner --who backed it and why given its 2 previous runs ? ). Front runners capitulate race in and race out , even form fancies and market leaders . At worst , BJG should have been given a few days for lying too far out of his ground or not making sufficient effort . No query on improved form for winner though , stewards sitting on their hands ?

I suspect that had the winner been in other colours there would have been a lot of hand brake noise allegations .

The playing field has to be level for all competitors , otherwise sport suffers . And it is a tenet of justice that someone is innocent until proven guilty . But you have to pick your case , and be ultra sure of your facts .
Report punchestown April 28, 2016 10:38 PM BST
At worst , BJG should have been given a few days for lying too far out of his ground or not making sufficient effort

The above would have at least shown that there is some accountability whereas it looks like carte blanche for the big boys to do as they please,I honestly thought Noble Emperor had a fair bit of running left in it when the race ended and would be happy to give BJG the benefit of the doubt that there was nothing untoward going on other that holding on too long to make his effort.

To say everything was hunky dory is just wrong on the evidence that I (we) saw that day.
Report Arklearkle April 28, 2016 11:17 PM BST
I have alluded to it in relation to the NE case and I repeat - racing prize money is subsidized by the tax-payer. Until the racing authorities get their house in order this money should be with-held. Anyone who claims it is in order is either blind or has a vested interest or is just stirring.
Report pa lapsy April 28, 2016 11:18 PM BST
Kelly i disagree with you so much here,i,m not up my own arris to say i'm either right or wrong,immaterial really.
He did beat the others,yes,what a poor lot they were.
BJG to me made no effort until the 2nd last in the short Limerick straight.
If i didn't know any better i would have been under the impression it was a "fixed race" and the winner was never going to be troubled by the only likely danger on paper.
Report Kelly April 29, 2016 2:44 AM BST
Pa , the winner had been held up conspicuously ( watch the 2 races) in his previous 2 races . Given that 2 horses were probably better on paper ( and in effect) than the others , to fix a race in such circumstances would require collusion by 2 separate camps . I suspect that the other jockeys in the race , bar Barry Cash on the winner , were caught by surprise ( and the start ) and found themselves chasing a horse who had established a big lead . Often such a leader comes back , this one kept going.

The jockey job with JP is so good , no jockey with half a brain would endanger it , particularly  for a no account race such as it was in the scheme of things . First time I watched the race , knowing what had happened earlier in the day ( I did not see the race in real time) I was astounded at the severity of what the stewards had come up with  , purely on the visual evidence available to us .
Report maxheadroom April 29, 2016 8:09 AM BST
"The jockey job with JP is so good , no jockey with half a brain would endanger it , particularly  for a no account race such as it was in the scheme of things"

whether it be ap bj or whoever, ive lost count of the number of non triers in all standard of races from that owner over the years.its part of the job imho. whats ridicolous is hes never been charged for bringing the game into disrepute.
Report Kelly April 29, 2016 9:40 AM BST
Owning race horses is a privilege .  Usually comes about as a result of economic success outside of racing , there are a lot of bottom feeders in the racing business , scratching around to make a living and keep their heads above water . Add in a handicapping system which encourages running down the field until appropriate and you have a lot of disparate factors at work .

One ex -Irish trainer( for whom I have no regard) often mentioned in despatches on here as a "strokemaster" perfected the art mentioned above . Relatively speaking most of our owners / trainers / jockeys operate in a fashion well within the laws as currently defined . JP has a huge number of horses in training , 90% of them are average , so there can be little expectation of great glory for them , unlike some other owners who concentrate on success at the highest ( level weights) condition races / Group races .

In such a scenario , keeping track of all the horses / trainers/ jockeys / employees / hangers on / friends of the family etc , is a near impossible task .  Throw in a few trainers I wouldn't go near and there are bound to be issues .  But within the current regulatory system the sport is notionally fairly run , and we have to accept that the proof of the pudding is in the eating .  Until someone actually proves some of the allegations every thing talked about is hearsay . Innocent until proven guilty . If you were waiting for proof I would't be holding my breath for a result if the Limerick fiasco is anything to go by .

No system is perfect , particularly when officialdom comes from certain circles , once upon a time bankers were "revered" ( not in my book , ever , ) only one apparently has been found "guilty" and done time , when most of us knew approximately what was going on behind closed doors . When you think of what the bankers and politicians  and economists have done to this little country of ours , any potential wrong doing on our racecourses is of no import , nobody died . We have to live with an imperfect system .
Report maxheadroom April 29, 2016 10:31 AM BST
it matters to anyone who had a few bob on noble emperor. thats why there was several threads on the ride and its conseqences.
Report mrcombustible April 29, 2016 10:40 AM BST
kelly as you say the Jockey Job is so good that no Jockey would endanger it, yes that is why a jockey will do as he is told when riding in these colours.
Report Ozymandius April 29, 2016 11:29 AM BST
MOL epitomises how a seriously wealthy man should play the racing game.  Good horses, straight up, campaigned against each other on their merits.  No stroke playing. Don't know how JPM can look himself in the mirror.
Report RoyalAcademy April 29, 2016 11:54 AM BST
what's notably absent from this debate - which is unwinnable in its present format - is filthy lucre and betting patterns.

Evidence of how much money was in circulation and what was backed and laid was, to the best of my knowledge, absent from the Appeal. One can say with reasonably certainty that most who are horrified by the successful appeal presume that there was financial chicanery and only that evidence laid out in open court could add or detract from the proceedings.

I've often raised the question as to why bookmakers never bleat about these incidents. Is it because they are somehow protected from the consequences as they see all the betting patterns or is it just the innocent layer/backer on the exchanges that's now fair game.

Until such evidence is produced at any similar enquiry the whole process is an utter sham and you are left to guess at motivations.
Report Temlett April 29, 2016 12:05 PM BST
"The jockey job with JP is so good , no jockey with half a brain would endanger it , particularly  for a no account race such as it was in the scheme of things"

I generally enjoy posts from Ozy but I am afraid in terms of the funniest thing written on here Kelly has beaten him like Relkeel beat his rivals in the Sandown handicap hurdle.
Report pa lapsy April 29, 2016 12:22 PM BST
Told this by a guard who when on duty at the Kerry tracks got the banou off Aubrey Brabazon by him holding his whip up straight in his hand,that was the signal for he was off.
Things might have moved on but maybe worth keeping at eye out for anyone heading to Punchestown today.
Report mrcombustible April 29, 2016 1:01 PM BST
Many years ago at the old Phoenix Park a jockey told me that if he was carrying his whip in his left hand as they left the parade ring he would be trying. The whip was in his left hand and it won at 25/1
Report dj876 April 29, 2016 1:25 PM BST
Kelly hasn't an iota about racing and should stick to buying cheap butter and trading it on here.

Anyone that can't see how the green and gold operates consistently with contempt is greener than grass.

To utilise Carlingford lough as an example to dispel the negative JP connotations is absurd, one should scrutinise how he got rated to 129 to win a Galway plate but is a consistent 160 rated chaser. Handicapping horses like My tent or Yours is typical of this man, he should be embarrassed the way they're campaigned. If you can't see that, they're is no hope for you so won't be wasting my breath again.

Handicapping is part of the game but compare and contrast Giggy,Ricci,Potts and Wylie to JP and he's the biggest pariah (on that scale) to Irish racing and punters. Despite his contributions, he's a drain on Irish racing in terms of having any credibility.
Report workrider April 29, 2016 2:01 PM BST
Maybe a lot of his horses are average ,but can you name 10 out of his stable who have NEVER won a race , theres a race in over 90% of them .WHEN WANTED I might add .
Report Snookerpunter April 29, 2016 2:04 PM BST
To be fair, they didn't really act the boll*x with MTOY. He was just an unexposed novice getting ideal pace and conditions when winning the Betfair.

Poor ride maybe behind Chatterbox, but that wasn't a bad beast at the time. Nichols won it with a similarly unexposed Zarkandar. Granted that one had already won Triumph.
Report firstimevisor April 29, 2016 2:15 PM BST
MTOY handicapped!!. Are you having a laugh dj. He got a rating of 140 after 3 runs, 2 above average races which he won and the other time he pulled like a train on heavy ground and still finished second
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